Can a person love without the Ten Commandments

[k4c]

And when God fulfills a law, what then?



Notice how this statement runs contrary to 2 Corinthians 3, Romans 7:1-7 and Galatians 3-4.

BFA

You are missing the the whole point of the New Covenant. In the New Covenant God does not do away with the law, but rather, He writes it on our heart.

In your quoting of Romans 7 are you saying that the law of marriage is done away with or one is not under the old convenant from the old marriage. There is a big difference...

We are no longer under the law of the Old Covenant, as far as, it pertains to the condemnation of the old man because of sin. But this, like Romans 7, does not mean the law is done away with.

If you desire to commit adultery, lie, steal, forget the Sabbath, use the Lord's name in vain you are free to do so. Just beware that God is not mocked. Whatever you sow, you will reap.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

You are missing the the whole point of the New Covenant.

The new covenant is articulated in more than one place in Scripture, is it not? Isn't 2 Corinthians 3 one of the places in which the new covenant is articulated?

In the New Covenant God does not do away with the law, but rather, He writes it on our heart.

Through the new covenant, the ministry of the Spirit becomes more glorious than the ministry of letters engraved on stones. The former is lasting while the latter fades (again, see 2 Corinthians 3).

In your quoting of Romans 7 are you saying that the law of marriage is done away with or one is not under the old convenant from the old marriage. There is a big difference...

In Romans 7, we are die to the law--we are released from the law--so that we can serve in the new way of the Spirit. Just as a wife is released from her marriage covenant when her husband dies so that she can be joined to another, we die to the law through Jesus Christ so that we can be joined to another. If you follow the analogy carefully, you will see that, unless you die to the law, you commit spiritual adultery.

We are no longer under the law of the Old Covenant

Agreed.

as far as, it pertains to the condemnation of the old man because of sin. But this, like Romans 7, does not mean the law is done away with.

• Hebrews 8 refers to it as "obsolete."
• 2 Corinthians 3 refers to it as "the ministry of death" that is fading and less glorious than the ministry of the Spirit.
• Romans 7 teaches that we must die to and be released from the law.
• Galatians 3 teaches that the law is a schoolmaster that was given 430 years after Abraham and only until the Seed had come, and that we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
• Galatians 4 teaches that Hagar represents the covenant given at Sinai and that someone got rid of Hagar.

If you desire to commit adultery, lie, steal, forget the Sabbath, use the Lord's name in vain you are free to do so.

This isn't about freedom to sin. None of us desires freedom to sin. You don't and I don't. The Spirit continues to convict regarding sin and righteousness and judgments. We aren't talking about freedom to sin, but rather about the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is a gospel of salvation to everyone who believes. It is not a gospel of salvation by grace PLUS works.


Q: Since you advocate so strongly for the law, can you explain the ways in which you observe the God-given laws set out in Leviticus 23?

BFA

 

[k4c]

The new covenant is articulated in more than one place in Scripture, is it not? Isn't 2 Corinthians 3 one of the places in which the new covenant is articulated?

Through the new covenant, the ministry of the Spirit becomes more glorious than the ministry of letters engraved on stones. The former is lasting while the latter fades (again, see 2 Corinthians 3).

In Romans 7, we are die to the law--we are released from the law--so that we can serve in the new way of the Spirit. Just as a wife is released from her marriage covenant when her husband dies so that she can be joined to another, we die to the law through Jesus Christ so that we can be joined to another. If you follow the analogy carefully, you will see that, unless you die to the law, you commit spiritual adultery.

Agreed.

• Hebrews 8 refers to it as "obsolete."
• 2 Corinthians 3 refers to it as "the ministry of death" that is fading and less glorious than the ministry of the Spirit.
• Romans 7 teaches that we must die to and be released from the law.
• Galatians 3 teaches that the law is a schoolmaster that was given 430 years after Abraham and only until the Seed had come, and that we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
• Galatians 4 teaches that Hagar represents the covenant given at Sinai and that someone got rid of Hagar.

This isn't about freedom to sin. None of us desires freedom to sin. You don't and I don't. The Spirit continues to convict regarding sin and righteousness and judgments. We aren't talking about freedom to sin, but rather about the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is a gospel of salvation to everyone who believes. It is not a gospel of salvation by grace PLUS works.


Q: Since you advocate so strongly for the law, can you explain the ways in which you observe the God-given laws set out in Leviticus 23?

BFA

If you look at verse three you will see that the fourth commandment, which is the seventh day Sabbath, is separate from all the other sabbaths that follow. It's listed with all the other days of holy convocation because it is a day that is holy.

Here is another translation that will help bring out the fact that the fourth commandment Sabbath in verse three is different from all the others that follow.

Leviticus 23:3 (These are in addition to your Sabbaths --the seventh day of every week--which are always days of rest in every home, times for assembling to worship, and for resting from the normal business of the week.)

 

[VictorC]

If you look at verse three you will see that the fourth commandment, which is the seventh day Sabbath, is separate from all the other sabbaths that follow. It's listed with all the other days of holy convocation because it is a day that is holy.
Here is another translation that will help bring out the fact that the fourth commandment Sabbath in verse three is different from all the others that follow.
Leviticus 23:3 (These are in addition to your Sabbaths --the seventh day of every week--which are always days of rest in every home, times for assembling to worship, and for resting from the normal business of the week.)

I don't intend to distract from the question that BFA asked (and it is one I would like to see an answer to), but I have searched every common English translation of Leviticus 23 and have not found any that match this "another translation". Furthermore, the Hebrew does not support the notion that the weekly sabbath is "in addition to your sabbaths".
In fact, the weekly sabbath is a holy convocation, just like the other sabbaths that are mentioned in this chapter. The weekly sabbath is of the same nature as the annual sabbaths.

Here is Leviticus 23:3 in the Young's Literal:
six days is work done, and in the seventh day is a sabbath of rest, a holy convocation; ye do no work; it is a sabbath to Jehovah in all your dwellings.

And Leviticus 23:4 in Jay Green's Literal:
Work is to be done six days, and in the seventh day shall be a sabbath of rest, a holy gathering; you shall do no work; it is a sabbath to Jehovah in all your dwellings.

Do you see anything about the weekly being any different than the annual sabbaths? Anything about it being in addition? No?
What is this worthless paraphrase, anyway?

And please return to BFA's question:
Q: Since you advocate so strongly for the law, can you explain the ways in which you observe the God-given laws set out in Leviticus 23?

Victor

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

You are missing the the whole point of the New Covenant. In the New Covenant God does not do away with the law, but rather, He writes it on our heart.

You bes incorrect. Jeremiah 31:31-34 makes very plain the nature of the New Covenant, that it bes NOT the same as the one made at Sinai with the OT Hebrews. VictorC has already adequately addressed this point if you would but go and review his earlier posts.

We are no longer under the law of the Old Covenant, as far as, it pertains to the condemnation of the old man because of sin. But this, like Romans 7, does not mean the law is done away with.

It has been fulfilled, though. Christ fulfilled it and Christ BES its end. We have no more need to be under it nor to reference it. And because of Christ, YES we get liberated out from under its condemnation even before we ever reach any theoretical point of "sinless perfection" (which cannot occur until we scrap this mortal flesh for something immortal and incorruptible in the future).

If you desire to commit adultery, lie, steal, forget the Sabbath, use the Lord's name in vain you are free to do so. Just beware that God is not mocked. Whatever you sow, you will reap.

This kind of straw man slanderous nonsense bes absolutely unacceptable here. Kindly do not post in this fashion as no one here needs or wants that kind of slanderous mischaracterization. Disagreeing with legalistic toxic soteriology does not constitute desiring to engage in criminal and immoral behavior. The two bes as different as night and day, apples and oranges, and this kind of garbage talk -- attempting to force others to adopt your opinion lest they be tarbrushed by your petty human pique -- bes NOT welcome here.

 

[k4c]

I don't intend to distract from the question that BFA asked (and it is one I would like to see an answer to), but I have searched every common English translation of Leviticus 23 and have not found any that match this "another translation". Furthermore, the Hebrew does not support the notion that the weekly sabbath is "in addition to your sabbaths".
In fact, the weekly sabbath is a holy convocation, just like the other sabbaths that are mentioned in this chapter. The weekly sabbath is of the same nature as the annual sabbaths.

Here is Leviticus 23:3 in the Young's Literal:
six days is work done, and in the seventh day is a sabbath of rest, a holy convocation; ye do no work; it is a sabbath to Jehovah in all your dwellings.

And Leviticus 23:4 in Jay Green's Literal:
Work is to be done six days, and in the seventh day shall be a sabbath of rest, a holy gathering; you shall do no work; it is a sabbath to Jehovah in all your dwellings.

Do you see anything about the weekly being any different than the annual sabbaths? Anything about it being in addition? No?
What is this worthless paraphrase, anyway?

And please return to BFA's question:
Q: Since you advocate so strongly for the law, can you explain the ways in which you observe the God-given laws set out in Leviticus 23?

Victor

If you refuse to see then I can't make you see.

In every Bible translation there is a distinction made in Lev 23 between the seventh day Sabbath and all the other sabbaths.

Verses 1 and 2 God speaks to Moses and is about to tell him all the important times. In verse 3 and 4 God makes a distinction between the seventh day Sabbath, which is a memorial of creation and always will be, and all the other sabbaths, which are the shadows that point to Christ.

Leviticus 23
1. And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2."Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them:`The feasts of the Lord, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts. 3.`Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings. 4.`These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times.

Did you notice how verse four starts a new list and goes on to name all the other sabbaths separating the seventh day Sabbath from the other sabbaths?

Listen to what Scofield says.

Leviticus 23
Scofield Reference Notes (1917 Edition)
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
The feasts of Jehovah. As given to Israel, these were simply seven great religious festivals which were to be observed every year. The first three verses of Lev. 23. do not relate to the feasts but separate the sabbath from the feasts.
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

The seventh day Sabbath is suppose to be a blessing to God's people. Jesus Christ established the church, in which gifts were given such as, pastors, teachers and so. In order for these gifts to be a blessing, people would have to be gathered together. The seventh day Sabbath is meant for this gathering. Because it is the fourth commandment not even your pagan boss can keep you from gathering together on that day without having to give an account before God.

Remembering the seventh day Sabbath also gives glory to God as the Creator of heaven and earth in this perverse world that teaches evolution.

I also find it very interesting how the big push came in the 1800's to remember the Sabbath. This is the same time that Darwinism came to be a powerful force in the world. No other day of the week points to God as Creator. When we remember to keep it holy we are bearing witness to the whole world of a Creator God and not an evolutionary existence.

 

[VictorC]

If you refuse to see then I can't make you see.

I used too many words last night to convey a simple request from you
What "translation" was your quote of Leviticus 23:3 from?

In every Bible translation there is a distinction made in Lev 23 between the seventh day Sabbath and all the other sabbaths.

I perused at least a dozen translations and paraphrases, and found none of them making any such distinction. The Hebrew makes no such distinction.

In verse 3 and 4 God makes a distinction between the seventh day Sabbath, which is a memorial of creation and always will be, and all the other sabbaths, which are the shadows that point to Christ.

I like manner, the sabbath ordinance was to remember God not only as Creator, but as Deliverer, which was the impetus for initiation of the sabbath in Deuteronomy 5:15. Just as the weekly sabbath pertained to a specific recipient in Leviticus 23:3, so it does in the list of the covenant of the ten commandments given to no one else.

The seventh day Sabbath is suppose to be a blessing to God's people. Jesus Christ established the church, in which gifts were given such as, pastors, teachers and so. In order for these gifts to be a blessing, people would have to be gathered together. The seventh day Sabbath is meant for this gathering. Because it is the fourth commandment not even your pagan boss can keep you from gathering together on that day without having to give an account before God.

If the seventh-day sabbath was "supposed" to be a blessing for the new covenant church, then I have two questions:
1) Why did God wait 2500 years before the initiation of the sabbath ordinance?
2) Why did God abolish the covenant containing the sabbath ordinance 1500 years after that initiation? This was a shadow given only to Israel, and it ended 2000 years ago when Christ fulfilled the shadow.

I also find it very interesting how the big push came in the 1800's to remember the Sabbath. This is the same time that Darwinism came to be a powerful force in the world. No other day of the week points to God as Creator. When we remember to keep it holy we are bearing witness to the whole world of a Creator God and not an evolutionary existence.

This same period of time brought on all sorts of cults and -isms; it was a time of massive spiritualism. Darwin wasn't alone in this period of time - he was joined by Margaret MacDonald, Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, Charles Taze Russel, Joseph Smith, etc ad nauseam. Oh, I nearly forgot Ellen White - where are my manners?

Victor

 

[k4c]

I used too many words last night to convey a simple request from you
What "translation" was your quote of Leviticus 23:3 from?

I perused at least a dozen translations and paraphrases, and found none of them making any such distinction. The Hebrew makes no such distinction.


I like manner, the sabbath ordinance was to remember God not only as Creator, but as Deliverer, which was the impetus for initiation of the sabbath in Deuteronomy 5:15. Just as the weekly sabbath pertained to a specific recipient in Leviticus 23:3, so it does in the list of the covenant of the ten commandments given to no one else.


If the seventh-day sabbath was "supposed" to be a blessing for the new covenant church, then I have two questions:
1) Why did God wait 2500 years before the initiation of the sabbath ordinance?
2) Why did God abolish the covenant containing the sabbath ordinance 1500 years after that initiation? This was a shadow given only to Israel, and it ended 2000 years ago when Christ fulfilled the shadow.

This same period of time brought on all sorts of cults and -isms; it was a time of massive spiritualism. Darwin wasn't alone in this period of time - he was joined by Margaret MacDonald, Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, Charles Taze Russel, Joseph Smith, etc ad nauseam. Oh, I nearly forgot Ellen White - where are my manners?

Victor

I quoted from the living bible. I don't use the living bible for study purposes but it did bring out the clear separation, in like manner, so does all the other translations. If you refuse to see it then there is nothing I can do.

God did in fact use the Sabbath to point to the deliverance of His people from Egypt to remind them of the time when they couldn’t rest from their labors to worship God. The fourth commandment was given not only to remember our Creator and bear witness to the world but also to prevent unbelieving man from refusing to let God’s people take time away from work to worship God.

Exodus 5:1-5 Afterward Moses and Aaron went in and told Pharaoh, "Thus says the Lord God of Israel: `Let My people go, that they may hold a feast to Me in the wilderness.' '' and Pharaoh said, "Who is the Lord, that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the Lord, nor will I let Israel go.'' So they said, "The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Please, let us go three days' journey into the desert and sacrifice to the Lord our God, lest He fall upon us with pestilence or with the sword.'' Then the king of Egypt said to them, "Moses and Aaron, why do you take the people from their work? Get back to your labor.'' And Pharaoh said, "Look, the people of the land are many now, and you make them rest from their labor!''

If you desire to do away with the Ten Commandments you are free to do so. The commandments are the guide to true worship and love. Without the Ten Commandments we are open to all kinds of interpretation of what true worship and love is.

Here is a good picture of what worship and love might look like without the Ten Commandments. Without the Ten Commandments, who's to stop them and hold them accountable and to what? Please view by clicking on the http: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW4LLwkgmqA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Leviticus 23:3 (These are in addition to your Sabbaths --the seventh day of every week--which are always days of rest in every home, times for assembling to worship, and for resting from the normal business of the week.)

Please identify the above-referenced translation. I've reviewed 10 translations, and none of them even remotely resembles what you've cited above. Consider the following:

NASB: “For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.”

ESV: "Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work. It is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwelling places.”

NKJV: “Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.”

YLT: “Six days is work done, and in the seventh day [is] a sabbath of rest, a holy convocation; ye do no work; it [is] a sabbath to Jehovah in all your dwellings.”

NIV: “There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD.”

AMP: “Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, a holy convocation or assembly by summons. You shall do no work on that day; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.”

NCV: “There are six days for you to work, but the seventh day will be a special day of rest. It is a day for a holy meeting; you must not do any work. It is a Sabbath to the Lord in all your homes.”

DARBY: “Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, a holy convocation; no manner of work shall ye do: it is the sabbath to Jehovah in all your dwellings.”

HCSV: "For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there must be a Sabbath of complete rest, a sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; it is a Sabbath to the LORD wherever you live.”

NLV: “Work may be done for six days. But the seventh day is the Day of Rest, a holy meeting when you do no work at all. It is the Day of Rest to the Lord in all your homes.”

Please cite the translation that you are using in your study. Thanks.

If you refuse to see then I can't make you see.

Oh, I don’t see. That is quite true. It is difficult to dialogue with a person who isn’t even relying on a reputable translation of the Bible!

In every Bible translation there is a distinction made in Lev 23 between the seventh day Sabbath and all the other sabbaths.

In none of the translations is there any distinction made between the sabbaths. That is the whole point here. You’ve appealed to Verse 3 and made the claim that Verse 3 provides a distinction between sabbaths. It does not do so.

Some SDAs appeal to Verse 38 (which you have not yet done). They claim that it provides a distinction between sabbaths. It comes after a long list of sabbaths (of which the seventh-day sabbath is but one) and provides a distinction between OFFERINGS.

“Besides those of the sabbaths of the LORD, and besides your gifts and besides all your votive and freewill offerings, which you give to the LORD.”
​

Verses 1 and 2 God speaks to Moses and is about to tell him all the important times. In verse 3 and 4 God makes a distinction between the seventh day Sabbath, which is a memorial of creation and always will be, and all the other sabbaths, which are the shadows that point to Christ.

Is it OK to put forth claims that have no basis whatsoever in the text. There is absolutely no evidence of a distinction between sabbaths in Leviticus 23. Rather, all are called "holy convocations" that are given by God. A number of them are referred to as everlasting and include a requirement for rest. The similarities between the convocations are obvious, and yet you keep claiming there is a difference. Please show us the difference found in Leviticus 23.

1. And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2."Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them:`The feasts of the Lord, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts. 3.`Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings. 4.`These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times.

I notice that you’ve abandoned your false translation of the Scriptures in favor of a more reliable translation. If anything, Verses 1-4 are abundantly clear that the feasts include the seventh day and all convocations that follow in Chapter 23. Leviticus 23 offers no basis for creating a distinction between the seventh-day sabbath and other sabbaths.

Did you notice how verse four starts a new list and goes on to name all the other sabbaths separating the seventh day Sabbath from the other sabbaths?

In the same way that Verse 2 did (immediately prior to a description of the seventh-day sabbath).

Without the Ten Commandments we are open to all kinds of interpretation of what true worship and love is.

Since you find the ten commandments to be the definitive explanation of what true worship is, please demonstrate where we can find the word "worship" in the ten commandments. Thanks.

BFA

 

[k4c]

Please identify the above-referenced translation. I've reviewed 10 translations, and none of them even remotely resembles what you've cited above. Consider the following:

NASB: “For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.”

ESV: "Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work. It is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwelling places.”

NKJV: “Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.”

YLT: “Six days is work done, and in the seventh day [is] a sabbath of rest, a holy convocation; ye do no work; it [is] a sabbath to Jehovah in all your dwellings.”

NIV: “There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD.”

AMP: “Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, a holy convocation or assembly by summons. You shall do no work on that day; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.”

NCV: “There are six days for you to work, but the seventh day will be a special day of rest. It is a day for a holy meeting; you must not do any work. It is a Sabbath to the Lord in all your homes.”

DARBY: “Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, a holy convocation; no manner of work shall ye do: it is the sabbath to Jehovah in all your dwellings.”

HCSV: "For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there must be a Sabbath of complete rest, a sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; it is a Sabbath to the LORD wherever you live.”

NLV: “Work may be done for six days. But the seventh day is the Day of Rest, a holy meeting when you do no work at all. It is the Day of Rest to the Lord in all your homes.”

Please cite the translation that you are using in your study. Thanks.

Oh, I don’t see. That is quite true. It is difficult to dialogue with a person who isn’t even relying on a reputable translation of the Bible!

In none of the translations is there any distinction made between the sabbaths. That is the whole point here. You’ve appealed to Verse 3 and made the claim that Verse 3 provides a distinction between sabbaths. It does not do so.

Some SDAs appeal to Verse 38 (which you have not yet done). They claim that it provides a distinction between sabbaths. It comes after a long list of sabbaths (of which the seventh-day sabbath is but one) and provides a distinction between OFFERINGS.

“Besides those of the sabbaths of the LORD, and besides your gifts and besides all your votive and freewill offerings, which you give to the LORD.”
​

Is it OK to put forth claims that have no basis whatsoever in the text. There is absolutely no evidence of a distinction between sabbaths in Leviticus 23. Rather, all are called "holy convocations" that are given by God. A number of them are referred to as everlasting and include a requirement for rest. The similarities between the convocations are obvious, and yet you keep claiming there is a difference. Please show us the difference found in Leviticus 23.


I notice that you’ve abandoned your false translation of the Scriptures in favor of a more reliable translation. If anything, Verses 1-4 are abundantly clear that the feasts include the seventh day and all convocations that follow in Chapter 23. Leviticus 23 offers no basis for creating a distinction between the seventh-day sabbath and other sabbaths.

In the same way that Verse 2 did (immediately prior to a description of the seventh-day sabbath).

Since you find the ten commandments to be the definitive explanation of what true worship is, please demonstrate where we can find the word "worship" in the ten commandments. Thanks.

BFA

Refer to post #88...

 

[VictorC]

Refer to post #88...

When you have a chance, your comments to my post Ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? would be appreciated.

Thanks!
Victor

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Refer to post #88...

Post #88 (or any other post from you) does not address the following questions and concerns raised in my post:

(1) Why you would rely on the Living Translation over other, more literal translations?

(2) Where in Leviticus 23 we can find even a shred of evidence that God created a distinction between sabbaths.

(3) The many, MANY similarities between ALL sabbaths described in Leviticus 23.

(4) Where in the ten commandments we find any description whatsoever of "true worship."

Please clarify.

BFA

 

[k4c]

When you have a chance, your comments to my post Ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? would be appreciated.

Thanks!
Victor

The context of your quote is seen in the argument of keeping the law to be justified.

Galatians 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

We, under the New Covenant, do not keep the law as a means to obtain rightousness, but rather, as an expression of love towards God and love towards neighbor.

There is a big difference between keeping the commandments as a means to be justified and keeping the commandments as an expression of love.

Jesus has freed us from the commandments as a means to rightousness so that we can freely keep them out of a heart of love. This is what is meant when God remembers our sins no more and writes His law on our heart.

It's like if you were speeding in a posted 25mph zone. You get stopped by the police and are given a $500 ticket. You are about to go to jail because you can't pay the ticket. All of a sudden someone who loves you pays the ticket for you and you go free. Does this remove the speed limit sign? No way. But I can tell you it should change you heart regarding speeding and obeying the posted speed limit. You should also have an appreciation of the one who paid your ticket.

Once you break the law you can't tell the judge that you will now start obeying the law and to forget about the violation and the fine. In other words, once you are a law breaker keeping the law now won't help you.

Do you see the cross and the New Covenant here?

 

[VictorC]

I quoted from the living bible. I don't use the living bible for study purposes but it did bring out the clear separation, in like manner, so does all the other translations. If you refuse to see it then there is nothing I can do.

As I have pointed out before, none of the actual English translations agree with the Living Bible paraphrase. You have built a case on a faulty rendering that you seem surprised I "refuse" to see any point in.
That isn't my fault! It is yours in bringing a faulty paraphrase to the table.

God did in fact use the Sabbath to point to the deliverance of His people from Egypt to remind them of the time when they couldn’t rest from their labors to worship God. The fourth commandment was given not only to remember our Creator and bear witness to the world but also to prevent unbelieving man from refusing to let God’s people take time away from work to worship God.

You fail to acknowledge that the sabbath and the covenant it was embodied in estranged the world as long as Moses had jurisdiction, as Ephesians 2:11-16 explains. I'm a Gentile; there is no time that the sabbath commandment ever reminded me or my heritage of our Creator.

Exodus 5:1-5 Afterward Moses and Aaron went in and told Pharaoh, "Thus says the Lord God of Israel: `Let My people go, that they may hold a feast to Me in the wilderness.' '' and Pharaoh said, "Who is the Lord, that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the Lord, nor will I let Israel go.'' So they said, "The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Please, let us go three days' journey into the desert and sacrifice to the Lord our God, lest He fall upon us with pestilence or with the sword.'' Then the king of Egypt said to them, "Moses and Aaron, why do you take the people from their work? Get back to your labor.'' And Pharaoh said, "Look, the people of the land are many now, and you make them rest from their labor!''

Why did you include this? There's no sabbath hinted at in this passage.

If you desire to do away with the Ten Commandments you are free to do so. The commandments are the guide to true worship and love. Without the Ten Commandments we are open to all kinds of interpretation of what true worship and love is.

Me? How did I take away the ten commandments? This was Israel's covenant (Deuteronomy 4:13), and it was God Who took them away in order to establish a better covenant (Hebrews 10:9). The ten commandments were taken away long before I was born!

Here is a good picture of what worship and love might look like without the Ten Commandments. Without the Ten Commandments, who's to stop them and hold them accountable and to what? Please view by clicking on the http:

Oprah Winfrey (think that's her name) is now your example of doctrine?
Please, that's a sorry theological assertion if I ever saw one.
Life is not given from a piece of paper, nor even stone tables. In fact, it was the stone tables that were called the "ministration of death" in 2 Corinthians 3:7 with very good cause. Read the entire chapter for the context, read Exodus 34 for the reference this chapter makes, read 2 Corinthians 3 again, and see that your desire for the ten commandments leads to the actions of those estranged apart from any hope in the Living God that the likes of Oprah Winfrey spawn from.

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The ten commandments are for those under Moses, not Christ.
Victor

 

[k4c]

As I have pointed out before, none of the actual English translations agree with the Living Bible paraphrase. You have built a case on a faulty rendering that you seem surprised I "refuse" to see any point in.
That isn't my fault! It is yours in bringing a faulty paraphrase to the table.


You fail to acknowledge that the sabbath and the covenant it was embodied in estranged the world as long as Moses had jurisdiction, as Ephesians 2:11-16 explains. I'm a Gentile; there is no time that the sabbath commandment ever reminded me or my heritage of our Creator.


Why did you include this? There's no sabbath hinted at in this passage.


Me? How did I take away the ten commandments? This was Israel's covenant (Deuteronomy 4:13), and it was God Who took them away in order to establish a better covenant (Hebrews 10:9). The ten commandments were taken away long before I was born!


Oprah Winfrey (think that's her name) is now your example of doctrine?
Please, that's a sorry theological assertion if I ever saw one.
Life is not given from a piece of paper, nor even stone tables. In fact, it was the stone tables that were called the "ministration of death" in 2 Corinthians 3:7 with very good cause. Read the entire chapter for the context, read Exodus 34 for the reference this chapter makes, read 2 Corinthians 3 again, and see that your desire for the ten commandments leads to the actions of those estranged apart from any hope in the Living God that the likes of Oprah Winfrey spawn from.

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The ten commandments are for those under Moses, not Christ.
Victor

.........

 

[VictorC]

The context of your quote is seen in the argument of keeping the law to obtain rightousness.

Galatians 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

We, under the New Covenant, do not keep the law as a means to obtain rightousness, but rather, as an expression of love towards God and love towards nighbor.

There is a big difference between keeping the commandments as a means to obtain rightousness and keeping the commandments as an expression of love.

What you're really saying is that the redemption in Christ means nothing to you. Redemption is a common word for my generation, who lived through S&H Green Stamps in their youth, so I might understand it better than you do.

Redemption is a financial transaction, that involves a buyer, a seller, and a medium of exchange for the purchased. The Pauline epistles identifies each of these.
Can you?
What have the redeemed been purchased from?
Galatians 4:1-7 is a short summary of the entire Gospel, and I beg you to familiarize yourself with this passage.

Jesus has freed us from the commandments as a means to rightousness so that we can freely keep them out of a heart of love. This is what is meant when God remembers our sins no more and writes His law on our heart.

What baloney.
This is Adventism speaking, not the Scriptures - and you get this from their theme of reconciliation to the "law of God" in order to vindicate God.
You will never be reconciled to the ten commandments, and this is why you haven't -and can't- produce any Scripture that agrees with the Adventist theory based on sheer nonsense.

We're proclaiming the Gospel of Christ, and Him crucified and resurrected.
We are reconciled to God, not the death sentence schoolmaster (Galatians 3:23-25).

It's like if you were speeding in a posted 25mph zone. You get stopped by the police and are given a $500 ticket. You are about to go to jail because you can't pay the ticket. All of a sudden someone who loves you pays the ticket for you and you go free. Does this remove the speed limit sign? No way. But I can tell you it should change you heart regarding speeding and obeying the post speed limit. You should also have an appreciation of the one who paid your ticket.

Do you see the cross and the New Covenant here?

No, I can't, because your allegory is faulty.
You will be condemned by the law as long as it exists, because you posit yourself to be a servant to the law in you civilian allegory.
That law has no jurisdiction over the police officer, who also sped in order to catch you. He isn't a servant to the law, he is above in the role of a son.

Matthew 17:24-26
24: And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
25: He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
26: Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

The servants under Moses continue in condemnation.
The redeemed were given the position of adopted sons and daughters of the Most High, and like Him, we are above the covenant law given only to the servants.

Victor

 

[VictorC]

.........

Are BFA and I getting through to you yet?

 

[k4c]

Post #88 (or any other post from you) does not address the following questions and concerns raised in my post:

(1) Why you would rely on the Living Translation over other, more literal translations?

(2) Where in Leviticus 23 we can find even a shred of evidence that God created a distinction between sabbaths.

(3) The many, MANY similarities between ALL sabbaths described in Leviticus 23.

(4) Where in the ten commandments we find any description whatsoever of "true worship."

Please clarify.

BFA

True worship is seen in keeping the commandments of God over the commandments of men.

Matthew 15:8-9 These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' ''

.....

 

[VictorC]

True worship is seen in keeping the commandments of God over the commandments of men.

Matthew 15:8-9 These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' ''

.....

Why don't you ever present His commandments, then?

 

[k4c]

Are BFA and I getting through to you yet?

I woudn't say you are getting through to me but I would say you are getting to me.

You believe that it's all Jesus and there is nothing else. Just believe and you're on the train to glory.

Well Jesus had a different view of things. He knew and taught that it's not only Him, but rather, it's doing the will of His Father. Those who refuse the will of His Father are considered lawless.

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. "Many will say to Me in that day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.