Can a person love without the Ten Commandments

[VictorC]

If Jesus' intention was to "eliminate" the Ten Commandments and usher in the period of grace after the cross, why'd He bother?

Jesus did not undermine the schoolmaster until propitiation was made.

6 ¶ Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

[RND]

Jesus did not undermine the schoolmaster until propitiation was made.

Or ever. Why would the creator of the Ten Commandments "undermine" His own creation? What type of sense does that make?

Paul said he did not know covetousness until the law. Would this be true for other's, even in this day and age? BTW, you still haven't answered the question.

Why did He bother to correct a man who, after His death, would no longer be held at fault for coveting? Would that rich young ruler be allowed to covet all he wanted after the cross? Why wasn't he allowed to covet before the cross but not afterwards? How come Paul new coveting before Jesus' death and still knew what coveting was after Jesus' death if there was no more coveting? Questions, questions, questions.....

 

[VictorC]

Or ever. Why would the creator of the Ten Commandments "undermine" His own creation? What type of sense does that make?

Paul said he did not know covetousness until the law. Would this be true for other's, even in this day and age? BTW, you still haven't answered the question.

Why did He bother to correct a man who, after His death, would no longer be held at fault for coveting? Would that rich young ruler be allowed to covet all he wanted after the cross? Why wasn't he allowed to covet before the cross but not afterwards? How come Paul new coveting before Jesus' death and still knew what coveting was after Jesus' death if there was no more coveting? Questions, questions, questions.....

My previous quotation of 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 seems appropriate. So does this one from 2 Corinthians 3:11-17

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 ¶ Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

My only guess is that the schoolmaster has not completed its task with you yet. When it is, this passage from Luke 18:9-14 will make greater sense to you:

9 ¶ And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Victor

 

[RND]

How about answering the questions I asked Victor? Quoting scripture out of context is not an answer, it's a cop out and an admission that your argument doesn't hold water.

1. Why would the creator of the Ten Commandments "undermine" His own creation?
2. Paul said he did not know covetousness until the law. Would this be true for other's, even in this day and age?
3. Why did He bother to correct a man who, after His death, would no longer be held at fault for coveting?
4. Would that rich young ruler be allowed to covet all he wanted after the cross?
5. Why wasn't he allowed to covet before the cross but not afterwards?
6. How come Paul new coveting before Jesus' death and still knew what coveting was after Jesus' death if there was no more coveting?

And the first question, which you still haven't attempted to answer remains:

If Jesus' intention was to "eliminate" the Ten Commandments and usher in the period of grace after the cross, why'd He bother trying to correct the rich young ruler's covetousness?

Answer that one. If possible, use scripture to support your answer.

Any takers?

My previous quotation of 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 seems appropriate. So does this one from 2 Corinthians 3:11-17

It's out of context and doesn't answer the questions asked.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Victor, do you know what "when Moses is read" means? The law and prophets were until John. Since then the Kingdom of God is preached. That Kingdom includes laws and rules and regulations.

My only guess is that the schoolmaster has not completed its task with you yet. When it is, this passage from Luke 18:9-14 will make greater sense to you:

Victor, let's try not making this discussion personal. Unless you've managed to reach "sinless perfection" your still under the law if you break the law.

9 ¶ And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Victor, if you are attempting to equate me with a Pharisee because I believe that the Ten Commandments still point out sin and haven't been abolished then that's your business. But keep in mind finger pointing and name calling isn't a form of argument, it's childish behavior.

Any moment now I expect you to deploy the "does too" argument.

BTW Victor, have you ever thought of what standard the publican was using to judge himself a sinner? Just a thought.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

"New" agreement not "No" agreement.

NEW agreement ... not "old" agreement.

Hebrews 10:1-17

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
​

DIG IT. The NEW covenant means He remembers our sins and iniquities NO MORE. The function of the LAW bes to POINT OUT SIN. That bes why the law can ONLY be a "schoolmaster" to bring us unto Christ. It cannot save us, not by convicting us nor by demanding flawless obedience from us. It has no power to turn the heart toward God and it bes the heart God wants. He does not CARE whether we slip up or not so long as the HEART bes true toward Him, the DESIRE and AGREEMENT of the mind bes to please and serve Him, which in turn can only come about by HIS finished work IN Christ FOR us ON our behalf ... NOT through anything WE do.

And notice verse 10? We bes NOT sanctified through obeying the law or lawkeeping. NO NO NO NO NO. We bes sanctified ONLY through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ what HE made on the Cross, again, HIS work, FINISHED and complete. And then look at verse 14 as well -- not only does HIS finished work ALONE sanctify us but it also makes us perfect FOREVER. Before we "see" it. Before we consider ourselves there. Before we even came to Him, He finished the whole thing: paid our "penalty" (as it bes called), reconciled us to the Father through His shed blood, and beyond that, sanctified us for all time and eternity AND perfected us as well.

Hallelujah what a Saviour!! You cannot ADD anything to HIS perfect and complete work!!!

 

[RND]

NEW agreement ... not "old" agreement.

No doubt. But what bes part of that agreement? Law perhaps?

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[RND]

The Review and Herald, October 18, 1892, paragraph 6 and 7


"The messenger of heaven cannot hope to please those who are determined to resist the truth. Christ describes them as saying, "We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented." Whatever course the messenger may pursue, it will be objectionable to the opposers of truth; and they will make capital of every defect in the manners, customs, or character of its advocate, in order that they may prevent those from giving it their candid attention who would listen to the evidences. If there is anything through which the opposers can find occasion to falsify the character or misinterpret the action of him who presents the truth, they will take advantage of it to deter those who would accept and obey the truth from hearing or believing the message."

"The Lord sent messages to his people through the agency of patriarchs and prophets, in order that the evils which existed in his people might be corrected. Had it been possible for them to discern the traditions and interpretations of men from the truth of God, there would have been no need of sending the message of the prophet; but this was not possible; for the maxims of the world were woven into their teaching as the warp is with the woof, and the commandments of men were regarded with more reverence than were the commandments of God. Man-made theories pass from one to another, and the doctrines of men, like evil leaven, work actively till the whole lump is leavened. When the Lord sends a message, he gives sufficient evidence to convince the honest in heart of its truth; but those who would resist the truth call for greater evidence. Should the Lord give them a greater evidence, it would only make their opposition more determined."

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

No doubt. But what bes part of that agreement? Law perhaps?

NO. Why do you keep trying to advocate legalism? SCRIPTURE (not just Moriah) plainly states that the law bes no longer what we use for a referential in our relationship with God; we use the life of Christ instead to show us what to emulate or "conform to" spiritually as the "pattern". Why do you keep pushing for lawkeeping as a requirement for being saved? NO ONE can "keep" the law. Understood? NO ONE can perfectly (without ANY error at all, ever) obey and live God's way EXCEPT Jesus. He writes His ways of love in our hearts so we can know Him and agree with Him. He prepares good works for us to walk in and He promises that in the Kingdom Come we will have bodies that will no longer have sin operating in them. Meanwhile He assures us that by HIS finished work -- NOT our "performance" -- we bes not just redeemed and reconciled, but SANCTIFIED and PERFECTED.

Please stop pushing this view that one must keep the law to be saved. It bes absurd, unbiblical, frustrates the grace of God (according to SCRIPTURES) and shipwrecks faith. Why would you want to destroy other people's faith in CHRIST by trying to put the focus of their eyes back upon THEMSELVES??? It bes utter futility, what you push for.

 

[RND]

When God says, "My Laws" do you think that includes NOT obeying the Ten Commandments?

NO. Why do you keep trying to advocate legalism?

If I don't want to commit murder is that being "legalistic"? If I don't want to commit adultery is that being "legalistic"? If I don't want to lie is that being "legalistic"?

SCRIPTURE (not just Moriah) plainly states that the law bes no longer what we use for a referential in our relationship with God; we use the life of Christ instead to show us what to emulate or "conform to" spiritually as the "pattern".

True enough. Did Christ ever violate the Ten Commandments?

Isa 42:24 Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Why do you keep pushing for lawkeeping as a requirement for being saved?

Because those that are "lawless" won't be saved. The law wasn't made for those that obey it, the law was made for those who won't.

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

NO ONE can "keep" the law. Understood? NO ONE can perfectly (without ANY error at all, ever) obey and live God's way EXCEPT Jesus.

So as long as we see Jesus we can obey the law. I agree.

Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

He writes His ways of love in our hearts so we can know Him and agree with Him. He prepares good works for us to walk in and He promises that in the Kingdom Come we will have bodies that will no longer have sin operating in them. Meanwhile He assures us that by HIS finished work -- NOT our "performance" -- we bes not just redeemed and reconciled, but SANCTIFIED and PERFECTED.

That sounds nice, but is it accurate? If we no longer have to keep the law then there is nothing by which for us to judge what is right or wrong in that it leaves it up to the individual what they believe "Godly love" is.

Please stop pushing this view that one must keep the law to be saved.

I'm not pushing this view. The Bible pushes this view. Can you show one Bible verse that shows the "lawless" and "disobedient" will be saved?

It bes absurd, unbiblical, frustrates the grace of God (according to SCRIPTURES) and shipwrecks faith.

Bes it absurd? Really?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

One can only establish the law through faith, not the other way around.

Why would you want to destroy other people's faith in CHRIST by trying to put the focus of their eyes back upon THEMSELVES???

Do you suppose those that have a tremendous amount of faith in Jesus demonstrate it by playing footloose and fancy-free with His commandments?

It bes utter futility, what you push for.

Only for the milk-drinkers.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

True worship is seen in keeping the commandments of God over the commandments of men.

Where in Matthew 15:8-9 does it say this??? Matthew 15 indicates that there were people who, rather than worshipping God, taught the commandments of men. This hardly confirms your theory that true worship is seen in keeping the commandments of God. I assert that this statement is, in fact, entirely false. Worshipping God is about worshipping God. Any fruits we exhibit are fruits of the Spirit.


I've given you a bit of time. During that time, have you been able to find any evidence whatsoever that God intended to create a distinction between sabbaths?

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Only for the milk-drinkers.

"For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."
BFA

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I'm not pushing this view. The Bible pushes this view.

Wrong. Your interpretation of the scriptures -- which has been demonstrated to be skewed and incorrect though you refuse to listen -- may push it, but scripture itself does not.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Please go back and read the ENTIRE chapter for CONTEXT... you seem to have overlooked these significant statements giving context ... normally Moriah only quotes scripture and does not add commentary because it believes God's word should (and well CAN) speak for itself. However, apparently some eyes bes dim and ears bes stuffed so that perception does not occur so having quoted these before it will now comment a little in red.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
-- in other words the purpose of the law: to establish guilt, equal guilt before God, in everyone. this bes ALL the law can do; it CANNOT teach us how to be righteous nor how to live godly in Christ.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
-- in other words, because the only thing the law can ever do bes bring knowledge of sin (and with it guilt), NO ONE can be justified before God by "deeds of the law", i.e., by claiming "yes Lord, I have obeyed Your holy commands." Jesus makes this point abundantly clear in several places where He discusses those saying "Lord, Lord" but not doing His will and those pointing to their good works done in His name to justify themselves and that not cutting it either. Thus we see NOT ONLY that obeying the law bes not REQUIRED for salvation (justification before God & reconciliation with Him), but that it DOES NOT and CANNOT **RESULT** in being justified before God either!!!



Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
-- God has established a means and method of receiving righteousness FROM HIM which completely EXCLUDES the law (that bes the meaning of the word "WITHOUT" -- it can mean "stands OUTSIDE OF" or it can mean EXCLUDES.)

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
-- in other words, this righteousness comes by the faith of Christ to ALL who believe; believing on Him bes the way to obtain it (NOT lawkeeping); there bes NO difference concerning who needs it (ALL of us) because ALL have sinned (even your righteousness and supposed "Obedience" bes FILTHY RAGS); we bes justified FREELY (without having to earn it, i.e. by lawkeeping) by HIS grace.


25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
-- seriously what part of verse 28 bes STILL unclear? We get right before God by believing in Christ, having faith (trust) in HIM and HIS righteousness and HIS power and that HIS blood covers ALL our sins and reconciles us to God. NOT by lawkeeping.

We bes NOT saved just to become "lawkeepers" who will not need a saviour. The entire house of cards built in SDAism relies on this sinless perfection in the flesh nonsense which scripture does not teach, and from there constructs this notion that grace bes only given to enable people to slavishly keep the law, which bes contrary to the entire teaching of the NT.

Do you suppose those that have a tremendous amount of faith in Jesus demonstrate it by playing footloose and fancy-free with His commandments?

Straw man. Stop building them. Not the issue here.
The issue here bes one of focus. On Christ or on one's "performance"?
The issue here bes one of relationship. With God or with a set of proscribed behavioral mandates?

The point of salvation being that God concerns Himself with OUR well being, our HEARTS -- not how many rules or regulations we do or do not conform to and NOT with turning us all into cookie-cutter CLONES of one another. The PATTERN we bes to emulate bes CHRIST, not any set of commandments and NOT the OT, Torah, Tanakh, whatever, which has a freaking regulation for every single thing one might ever do even how much drippage from a leaky radiator one MAY collect on Sabbath before it becomes a "violation" of keeping Sabbath! Relating to RULES and REGULATIONS ALWAYS ends up going down this despicable path and one of the main thrusts (not the only but one of them) in Jesus' ministry bes to BUST off that suffocating doomed-to-fail yoke and smash it to bits.

Scripture points to the way out: walk in the Spirit and you will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Scripture establishes that the flesh WILL keep on being flesh, with sin and its desires IN it and we will NEVER get to a place where that vanishes until we get new bodies in the Kingdom Come 3-d. Scripture does NOT point to constantly measuring ourselves against a set of rules and nitpicking regulations for every breath we take, everything we eat or drink, what we wear, how others perceive us, etc. All of that bes the slavish human system which humans TRY to push through misuse of "religion" and clever manipulations twisting and wresting scripture OUT of context, but it will NOT wash with the mature and discerning, who in the name of Jesus Christ, say the Lord REBUKE those soul-destroying errors into utter oblivion.

Only for the milk-drinkers.

No, that bes where you bes wrong. Moriah used to subscribe to that spiritual-pride-stroking nonsense, but now it knows better. The real answer bes: Only those so deeply mired in spiritual pride and full of themselves that they cannot see Revelation 3:14-21 applies directly right here and now TO themselves, and not to those they blindly oppose and presume to insult as a self-defensive means of clinging to their errors.

The real milk-drinkers -- the real babes -- bes them what needs a specific concrete rule to regulate every aspect of their lives down to what they put in their mouths, even -- because they have not had their senses exercised to DISCERN good from evil. Read the passage in context please.

Hebrews 5:12-14
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
-- those who still need a specific rule nailing down exactly how to think and feel and act in every particular bes the babes -- not those who walk in the freedom of grace and the Gospel (GOOD News hon ... NOT bad ... "obey or else" bes the OLD BAD News ...) Babes bes so insecure they would quite literally establish a seven-point proper procedure for Christian flatulence if they could get away with selling it from the pulpit. Babish behavior bes fine for those new in the faith -- coming out of a sinful, confusing world fraught with subtle spiritual warfare as well as the more overt version can be unsettling and people feel better with some concrete rules to anchor them -- but when it persists in those long time presumably in the truth it bes proof they never entered through the DOOR but climbed up some other way -- by the letter-ladder of the law perhaps?

 

[VictorC]

How about answering the questions I asked Victor? Quoting scripture out of context is not an answer, it's a cop out and an admission that your argument doesn't hold water.

Your questions appeared as a random hodgepodge without any Scripture, without any point made, and was just plain random - so I saw no reason to make a rebuttal to a point that was absent. I will try to answer them more completely, now that you have listed them.

Why would the creator of the Ten Commandments "undermine" His own creation?

Odd that you would capitalize "Ten Commandments", and yet not the "creator" of that covenant. At least you have acknowledged that Jesus was the Creator of that covenant, and as its Sovereign He can destroy as well as create entities in their proper dispensation.
During the tenure of the Mosaic covenant, Jesus abided by it -willingly- until He had completed atonement in accordance to Leviticus 16 for "the whole congregation". At that time the law had been fulfilled and lost its authority over those redeemed from it. As for His motive, I have placed Scripture before you often in order to show that the old covenant was faulty and led only to a death sentence. It was a schoolmaster, as Paul called it in Galatians 3:23-25 that was designed to show its recipients their depravity before a holy God, and their need for redemption.

Paul said he did not know covetousness until the law. Would this be true for other's, even in this day and age?

Wasn't that the purpose of the law? To show Paul that the law was spiritual, and its Author holy, and yet Paul was carnal and sold under sin?
Why are you so quick to point out this purpose the law concluded in Paul's mind, and yet deny Paul's exclamation that "now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held" in the previous verse, Romans 7:6? The law identified as containing the words "thou shalt not covet" in Romans 7:7?

Why did He bother to correct a man who, after His death, would no longer be held at fault for coveting?

The passage you allude to doesn't come to my mind, and this is why I dismissed it previously.

Would that rich young ruler be allowed to covet all he wanted after the cross?

I assume you're referring to Matthew 19:16-26:

16: And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18: He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19: Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20: The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21: Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22: But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23: Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24: And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25: When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26: But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Covetousness isn't the big issue in this passage.
As soon as this character opened his mouth and uttered the words "All these things have I kept from my youth up", he was bearing false witness. On top of that, his line of questioning was "what good thing shall I do", and Jesus headed him off at the pass in pointing out that no one is good beside God.

His disciples picked up on all this, and asked the question "Who then can be saved?", to which Jesus answered "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible" - salvation by contrived pretended compliance to the law is not the means to salvation. Only God, Who alone is good, can provide that which is impossible by carnal works.

Why wasn't he allowed to covet before the cross but not afterwards?

Coveting happens as a fact either side of the cross.
The law does not know what forgiveness is - only atonement by blood.
Grace in Jesus Christ provided that Blood Atonement that is sufficient.

How come Paul new coveting before Jesus' death and still knew what coveting was after Jesus' death if there was no more coveting?

Earlier in this very discourse you called attention to Romans 7:7, and this passage acknowledges Paul's present tense nature as a sinner in Romans 7:14:
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

And the first question, which you still haven't attempted to answer remains:

If Jesus' intention was to "eliminate" the Ten Commandments and usher in the period of grace after the cross, why'd He bother trying to correct the rich young ruler's covetousness?

Answer that one. If possible, use scripture to support your answer.

I have done that, if you are in fact alluding to the passage in Matthew 19:16-26. Jesus shoved that liar right back to the schoolmaster Moses was commissioned to give to all the children of Israel, because this rich man was still asking what he was able to do to earn his way into God's graces.

It's out of context and doesn't answer the questions asked.

It was entirely appropriate, in that while the Mosaic covenant was not yet satisfied via propitiation, the means of redemption was still a secret that was protected, since "for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Corinthians 2:8.

Victor, do you know what "when Moses is read" means? The law and prophets were until John. Since then the Kingdom of God is preached. That Kingdom includes laws and rules and regulations.

And the next verse said the law would not fail - and it hasn't. It was fulfilled.
But tell me this: Why would the need to press into the kingdom of God be mentioned to those who were living under the law, and supposedly already in a suitable covenant relationship with God?

Victor, let's try not making this discussion personal. Unless you've managed to reach "sinless perfection" your still under the law if you break the law.

Victor, if you are attempting to equate me with a Pharisee because I believe that the Ten Commandments still point out sin and haven't been abolished then that's your business. But keep in mind finger pointing and name calling isn't a form of argument, it's childish behavior.

Any moment now I expect you to deploy the "does too" argument.

BTW Victor, have you ever thought of what standard the publican was using to judge himself a sinner? Just a thought.

The law is that schoolmaster designed to lead you to a redeemer, that is, Jesus Christ. As Galatians 3:23-25 mentions:

23: But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25: But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Ellen White was the source of doctrine and the final authority of all questions, and as a completely uninspired "prophet", she never fathomed what redemption is. Her teachings permeate the seventh-day Adventist church's view of the Gospel, which is void of redemption and adoption. Ellen's premise was to be reconciled to the law of Moses, the covenant of the ten commandments, rather than to be reconciled to God their redeemer.
This was in order to vindicate God against accusations from satan that are totally fabricated in Ellen's tortured mind. For her, there can be no end to the "ministration of death" (2 Corinthians 3:7, and she could not see the end of that which was abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13).

That is "another gospel", which Paul cursed in Galatians 1:9. Ellen was just another Pharisee who didn't know what she was entangled with. What you are quick to label as "childish" is gained from experience with discussions with your pastors and reading Ellen's drivel.

Victor

 

[VictorC]

The Review and Herald, October 18, 1892, paragraph 6 and 7

This is not an authority to appeal to.

 

[RND]

Who are you quoting BFA? If you are going to quote someone at least leave their name in the quote.

It seems odd that you do this.

Where in Matthew 15:8-9 does it say this??? Matthew 15 indicates that there were people who, rather than worshipping God, taught the commandments of men. This hardly confirms your theory that true worship is seen in keeping the commandments of God. I assert that this statement is, in fact, entirely false. Worshipping God is about worshipping God. Any fruits we exhibit are fruits of the Spirit.


I've given you a bit of time. During that time, have you been able to find any evidence whatsoever that God intended to create a distinction between sabbaths?

BFA

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

"For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."
BFA

The "word of righteousness" here would certainly seem to point to precisely what we bes discussing: that Christ, not obedience to written laws, bes the source of righteousness. Christ, and His sacrifice, and His mercy and grace, and only Him and only that, and nothing else. So obviously those who still don't grasp that bes the "babes" and "milk drinkers" here ... not those who do not need someone to tell them what to do in every aspect of life so that they can assure themselves they have not sinned. Such an one has no trust in Christ and no assurance of salvation in Him. They bes of all men most to be pitied (Moriah tries to remind itself to temper its Petrine sword-swinging reactions to the way their errors threaten and insult our Lord).

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

The Review and Herald, October 18, 1892, paragraph 6 and 7

As VictorC already pointed out, these statements have no authority here.

However ... just as a matter of interest ...

The messenger of heaven cannot hope to please those who are determined to resist the truth ... Whatever course the messenger may pursue, it will be objectionable to the opposers of truth; and they will make capital of every defect in the manners, customs, or character of its advocate, in order that they may prevent those from giving it their candid attention who would listen to the evidences. If there is anything through which the opposers can find occasion to falsify the character or misinterpret the action of him who presents the truth, they will take advantage of it to deter those who would accept and obey the truth from hearing or believing the message.

By sharing this quote you have just illustrated the deviant course taken by every opposer who has thrown stones at Moriah for being daimonizomai as a reason they should not even remotely consider the spiritual worth of anything it speaks whenever God bears a witness to Himself and His truth through it, though He frequently blesses it by using it even though it bes a most unworthy, cracked, frail and brittle vessel indeed. It sometimes bes forced to ponder the direness of a situation in which He apparently cannot find any better suited, and it bes glad to see people here like VictorC and BFA who do such a wonderful job of testifying to His Word, way better than this old thing.

The discerning, it has noted, never behave in this fashion; instead they rejoice at the mercy and power of God to move upon one held captive by His enemy and to give evidence that He bes in control even of hostages held by Another.

So thanks for so colorfully pointing this out!!

As for this ...

Had it been possible for them to discern the traditions and interpretations of men from the truth of God, there would have been no need of sending the message of the prophet; but this was not possible; for the maxims of the world were woven into their teaching as the warp is with the woof, and the commandments of men were regarded with more reverence than were the commandments of God. Man-made theories pass from one to another, and the doctrines of men, like evil leaven, work actively till the whole lump is leavened.

This concept illustrates most plainly indeed part of the problem we see with those who attempt to promote "another gospel" -- one of lawkeeping as the basis of our assurance instead of Christ, His mercy, His completed work, and His grace -- because their arguments frequently come forth suffused with the conceits of modern times, particularly and most notably the sort of Western "rugged individualism" pull-self-up-by-bootstraps idiocies taken to extremes by Ayn Rand but nonetheless abundantly marinating the thinking of even those who would vehemently oppose her philosophies. The teachings of modern man rely upon the delusions of pure self-sufficiency in all things as some twisted kind of ideal for the individual, individual isolationism and personal nihilism and private conceits of superiority over others -- good ol' fashioned PRIDE -- and the utter worship of and reliance upon the chimera of "free will" and the efficacy of human volition to address and correct every problem and foible and shortcoming individually and corporately. Nothing could be further from the truth, but today's lawkeeping "other gospel" bes predicated entirely upon this rather than upon the utter helplessness of the sinner to change his standing before God and utter dependence upon the mercy, goodwill, power and completed work of JESUS CHRIST, which bes the REAL and TRUE foundation of the ONLY TRUE GOSPEL. Add to that, of course, those arguments coming from the SDA camp specifically bes suffused with the man-made teachings of Ellen White based upon the budding Victorian infatuations with the things mentioned above.

When the Lord sends a message, he gives sufficient evidence to convince the honest in heart of its truth; but those who would resist the truth call for greater evidence. Should the Lord give them a greater evidence, it would only make their opposition more determined."

This bes not demonstrated in scripture. In fact rather than making opposition more determined, the experiences of Jesus in feeding crowds and healing the sick tended to result in conviction for the wrong reasons -- i.e., "you ate the bread and got filled".

 

[Man-ofGod]

Moria,

Its not about the legalism. Its about doing whats right (hence righteousness) out of love. Many Christians think the father is going to see us in "Jesus goggles" and wont see our sin. Anyone with common sense has to see how ridiculous that sounds. If that was the case then all we would need to do is to believe in Jesus and we would all be saved. But Jesus sees our sin. You think hes going to represent you just because you think you know him. But it clearly states in the Bible that thats not enough, for even the Demons believe.

When they asked Jesus what the 2 most important commandments was he stated that it was to love your neighbor and love thy God. If your a parent you can easily understand why. God wanted us to choose him, this is how love works. If we love God Jesus says, we will obey his commandments. We are not obeying the commandments because we have to, we are obeying the commandments because we love God. This is why it is written in our hearts. When you do it out of love, it does not become a burden or a chore but a joy.

Its the same with parenthood. I would want my children to obey me as well, and in cases when they deliberately disobey me you can feel as if they do not even love you. And in some cases, some kids actually do not feel any love for their parents. These kids are often very disobedient. This is part of the reason why step parents often have a tough time in dealing with their spouses children.

In conclusion, its not about obeying the legalistic aspect of the law. We know that Jesus is not going to disown us just for missing a sabbath or any other sin we may commit. God knows the devil owns this world. However, if we carelessly sin just because we think we are saved because of Grace, well then that just defeats the purpose of the Bible doesn't it? We have to have knowledge of the law in order to stay true to Gods word. Thats why we have the 10 commandments. Thats why the Bible tells us that by faith, we uphold the law.

I hope I was clear enough in my explanation. Feel free to ask for clarification if needed. Thanks for reading.

 

[ricker]

Moria,

Its not about the legalism. Its about doing whats right (hence righteousness) out of love. Many Christians think the father is going to see us in "Jesus goggles" and wont see our sin. Anyone with common sense has to see how ridiculous that sounds. If that was the case then all we would need to do is to believe in Jesus and we would all be saved. But Jesus sees our sin. You think hes going to represent you just because you think you know him. But it clearly states in the Bible that thats not enough, for even the Demons believe.

When they asked Jesus what the 2 most important commandments was he stated that it was to love your neighbor and love thy God. If your a parent you can easily understand why. God wanted us to choose him, this is how love works. If we love God Jesus says, we will obey his commandments. We are not obeying the commandments because we have to, we are obeying the commandments because we love God. This is why it is written in our hearts. When you do it out of love, it does not become a burden or a chore but a joy.

Its the same with parenthood. I would want my children to obey me as well, and in cases when they deliberately disobey me you can feel as if they do not even love you. And in some cases, some kids actually do not feel any love for their parents. These kids are often very disobedient. This is part of the reason why step parents often have a tough time in dealing with their spouses children.

In conclusion, its not about obeying the legalistic aspect of the law. We know that Jesus is not going to disown us just for missing a sabbath or any other sin we may commit. God knows the devil owns this world. However, if we carelessly sin just because we think we are saved because of Grace, well then that just defeats the purpose of the Bible doesn't it? We have to have knowledge of the law in order to stay true to Gods word. Thats why we have the 10 commandments. Thats why the Bible tells us that by faith, we uphold the law.

I hope I was clear enough in my explanation. Feel free to ask for clarification if needed. Thanks for reading.

I know you wern't adressing me, but I have a question or two,if you would be so kind. BTW the verse doesn't say "by faith, we observe the law".

Are you saying we are to be judged unto salvation by the basis of how well we obeyed the law? If so, how well do we have to keep it? Are we judged for salvation on how hard we try, or maybe the general direction of our lives? Do good intentions play a part in our salvation? How good is good enough? Is it "I do my best and God does the rest"?

These are honest questions I had as an Adventist years ago and I was wondering if you could answer them for me, preferably with scripture.
Thanks! Ricker

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Its not about the legalism. Its about doing whats right (hence righteousness) out of love.

You miss the point though: we cannot. If we could, we would not need a Redeemer; we would only need to just snap to and stop making excuses and do it. Why do you think the Gospels bes replete with examples of Jesus doing the impossible: giving sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, making the paralyzed get up and walk, even raising the dead and cleansing the leprous and delivering the demon-infested? Because all these things bes impossible for humans to do on their own. Because all these things bes symbols and metaphors for the way SIN affects us. Because just like all these things, just like the blind cannot will themselves to see, the deaf cannot will themselves to hear, the lame cannot will themselves to walk, the leper cannot will himself to health, the possessed cannot will themselves free from the control of evil forces, and the dead cannot will himself to live again, NEITHER CAN ANY OF US BY EXERCISE OF WILL MAKE OURSELVES STOP SINNING OR OBEY GOD'S LAW IN EVERY PARTICULAR, 24/7 FLAWLESSLY, NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE LOVE HIM AND WANT TO SERVE HIM.

Many Christians think the father is going to see us in "Jesus goggles" and wont see our sin.

That bes the privilege of the spirit of adoption whereby we cry "Abba!" (Daddy!). That bes the privilege of having a reconciled relationship through His shed blood. You seek to deny that privilege, for the securing of which, for you AND Moriah and ALL of us who would believe on His Name, He went to that horrible Cross and bore a slow, painful death of humiliation under the mocking tongues of a vicious crowd? What a pity. What a loss to you! No wonder you have no blessed assurance!!!

Anyone with common sense has to see how ridiculous that sounds. If that was the case then all we would need to do is to believe in Jesus and we would all be saved.

Bes you even aware you have just stated the Gospel itself to sound ridiculous? Wow. :o
Friend, Moriah has some very good news for you.
ALL we need to do BES to believe in Jesus and we WILL all be saved!!!!!
Friend, this BES the good news of the Gospel!!!

Romans 10:8-10:
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Acts 16:25-31
25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them. 26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.
27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 3:14-17
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 1:11-13
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Did you see that friend? To WHOM does HE give power to become sons of God? To those that BELIEVE ON HIS NAME. And also note verse 13. Receiving from CHRIST the power to become sons of God -- the "new birth" -- does NOT happen by, from, through, or because of, human WILL. human will has NOTHING to do with it. It does NOT happen from the will of the flesh. It does NOT happen from the will of man. It happens from the will of GOD.

We cannot control it. We cannot control Him by inventing who we think He should be, honoring the lawkeepers and chucking the prostitutes and publicans into Hell. The Pharisees tried that nonsense and look where they ended up: He called them snakes and vipers, brood of serpents, obstacles to the salvation of others. We cannot dictate to Him. HE bes sovereign.

Just rest in Him.
KNOW Him. TRUST Him.

No mistake about it: the WORK of God bes to BELIEVE ON HIM whom He hath sent. Some people take an entire lifetime to learn what it means to have a "saving" faith in Jesus Christ, what it truly means to BELIEVE on Him, believe IN Him. Oh it would be so much easier (most humans foolishly assume anyways) bto have a set of rules to follow and then delude ourselves that our obedience bes good enough and suffices!! Little do they realize the flip side of this: that for the honest-hearted, his or her own obedience will NEVER be good enough and NEVER suffice; s/he will ALWAYS be seeing where s/he falls so very far, far short of the glory of God in terms of loving character and a holy life. In fact look how stupid humans get when they try to live a "holy" life -- they become insufferable judgmental prigs full of themselves, marinated in pride and stomping all over those they presume to be "beneath" them!!! Just goes to show that humans and human performance will botch it EVERY time!!!

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
-- Romans 3:20-24

But Jesus sees our sin. You think hes going to represent you just because you think you know him. But it clearly states in the Bible that thats not enough, for even the Demons believe.

Moriah thinks no such thing. Moriah does not think Christ will do anything for Moriah based on Moriah's thoughts. Moriah KNOWS Jesus Christ bes her advocate before the Father based entirely upon HIS mercy and HIS shed blood. It does not rely upon its performance in terms of thinking, feeling, saying or doing the "right" things as ANY type of assurance of salvation. It knows that in itself, that being in its flesh, dwelleth no good thing, for to desire to do right bes present with it, yea, but how to perform that, it finds not, because sin in it bes stronger. It must rely wholly and utterly upon the mercy of Christ and the gift of eternal life from HIM. It has NEVER known this reliance to fail, EVER, for it has never known HIM to fail. He bes able to save to the UTTERMOST those that come to God by Him, because HE EVER LIVES TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR US. (Hebrews 7:25).

As for your confusing reference to James 2:18-20 ...

Context bes your friend ... as bes cross-referencing ...

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

What did Jesus say bes our "work", though?
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Eph 2:8-10:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

You see? Even the FAITH we need bes a gift from Him. It does NOT come about by means of our works (thoughts, choices, acts, deeds, etc. anything WE produce). For we bes HIS workmanship ... not the other way 'round.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Too many of your lot stop on 2:12 and fail to read the punchline. Read verse 13 AT THE SAME TIME!!!!!

If we love God Jesus says, we will obey his commandments. We are not obeying the commandments because we have to, we are obeying the commandments because we love God. This is why it is written in our hearts. When you do it out of love, it does not become a burden or a chore but a joy.

Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
When Christ writes love in our hearts, it doesn't come with a rule book, but with a pattern: His. How He treated people. Until Moriah sees these advocates of the yoke of bondage actually, truly treating others as Christ treated them -- and like it or not that includes itself -- not one jot nor tittle of their legalistic obsessions with rules and codes and proscribed mandatory behaviors for every single tiniest aspect of life and existence will ever impress in the slightest. Only replication of the loving heart of God as patterned in the character of Christ matters, and without it, you can keep your sabbath till the stars fall from the sky; it matters not one whit. It does not testify to God nor save your soul. It only becomes an occasion of illegitimate spiritual pride and arrogance (illegitimate because no actual grounds thereof exist except in the deluded mind of the one preening himself therein).
Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

However, if we carelessly sin just because we think we are saved because of Grace

This bes a completely, utterly useless and worthless straw man.
Has ANYONE here been advocating for "careless sinning"??? Have you seen anyone here even remotely suggest we should carelessly sin? If so, please cite their post and quote from it and demonstrate that they have in fact been advocating for careless sinning.

This assumption constitutes an empty, vacuous and slanderous accusation which comes up every time someone puts forth the GOOD NEWS of God's MERCY and GRACE -- what the sacrifice of Christ bes all about in the first place not to mention the way He lived His LIFE!!! -- and frankly, Moriah bes tired of this bothersome and annoying little ploy. Why should Moriah or any other believer in the grace and goodness of God have to answer for a chimera invented in the minds of men in this regard? Particularly when Paul already amply addressed the same nonsense REPEATEDLY in his day and we HAVE the written records of scripture to turn to in this regard?

Jesus Christ DIED to get rid of this empty false dichotomy; it does not exist anymore. It has NEVER been the case that EITHER one must start keeping the law in order to be saved OR one enters "careless sinning". That bes a FALSE DICHOTOMY. Jesus has provided the TRUE way: the way of GRACE and MERCY. That bes ALL we need, and it bes MORE than enough.

But go to now, pray to your LAWS tonight. Ask THEM to comfort you with assurance of their power to make you a better person, to deliver you from evil that runs so deep inside you it even seeps into those carefully sealed-off places where you try desperately to make yourself clean enough to connect with a holy God ... you ask those LAWS to promise you eternal life and cleanse you from all unrighteousness. They won't, because they cannot. They never could. VictorC has gone over & over that very efficiently in this thread and others, and to some degree so has Moriah.

The salvation you seek through lawkeeping can only be found in Christ. Won't you please consider coming to Him today, instead of having an empty relationship with something that cannot heal, cannot forgive, and cannot fix you, but can only condemn over and over?