Can a person love without the Ten Commandments

[VictorC]

I don't understand how your post is relevant.

JM

The relevance comes from this statement you wrote:

Most people agree that the 9 of the 10 commandments are still the law.

This seems to me that you're postulating that 9 commandments of the 10 are binding, or at least "most people" would believe.
That statement isn't true according to the new testament.

We aren't concerned with human opinion, as it varies and isn't an authority to appeal to - we want to know the Scriptures, and these commandments have lost their jurisdiction on the redeemed according to them.

Victor

 

[JonMiller]

Umm, so that means it is fine for you to murder someone?

I think that you vastly don't understand either the new testament or the meaning of the word law. I posted the word law to see if that was it. Remember, you are reading the new testament in english. Even 2000 years ago, they read the hebrew scriptures in cultures with law and the meanings that are associated with it. They weren't in a vacuum.

Just because law is used one way doesn't mean it doesn't have other connotations and meanings.

JM

 

[VictorC]

Any opinion?

The relevance comes from this statement you wrote:

This seems to me that you're postulating that 9 commandments of the 10 are binding, or at least "most people" would believe.
That statement isn't true according to the new testament.

We aren't concerned with human opinion, as it varies and isn't an authority to appeal to - we want to know the Scriptures, and these commandments have lost their jurisdiction on the redeemed according to them.

Victor

 

[JonMiller]

What law is described in Romans 7:1-7?

What law is described in 2 Corinthians 3:6-16?

What law is described in Galatians 4:21-31?

It seems difficult to make the claim that the law described in these passages does not include the ten commandments.

And I could point out verses where what is described includes (most of) the 10 commandments. Any time that the new testament says not to murder (or hate), it is including one of the 10 commandments.

According to Deuteronomy 5:1-5, the ten commandments did not exist prior to the life of Moses.

So it was right to murder before Moses? No, it was still wrong to muder. If it was still wrong to murder, then the 10 commandments did exist before moses (at least, the 6th or whatever commandment it is).

According to Galatians 3:16-19, the law was added 430 years after Abraham and only until the Seed had come.

It was refering to a specific implimentation of the law (also called the law).

The fourth commandment has always existed? The fourth commandment had no starting point? Is that what the Scriptures teach?

The 4th commandment is the one that most people think is a no longer valid implementation. Such as laws about giving elephants baths no longer being a valid implementation (I might have the example down wrong, but I am sure you have heard of the numbe rof rediculous laws that are still on the books, because at some point in the past they were needed). I am not so sure, since it is with another 9 that most people hold as valid.

I expect that the way it was valid preEden was that every day was the Sabbath. But that is baseless speculation.

I see no Scriptural basis for reaching this conclusion. Rather, I notice that--in certain instances--murder was contrary to the mind of God even before there was a codified system of law. Therefore, I believe that sin exists even in the absence of a codified system of law.

I am just using the meaning of words. Words have meaning, ideas exist, you can't make them go away by sticking your head in the sand.

Q: Do you believe that the Holy Spirit convicts a man with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment?

Sure, why not?

Although I suspect that you are inaccurate in your use of "most," I can confirm that I personally do not believe that 9 out of the 10 commandments are the law.

I still think that you do but that you don't understand what the word law means or that you are lying to yourself. There is the possibility that you don't, but then you scare me.

With all due respect, one should not create doctrines that directly contradict Scripture in order to satisy the meaning that he attaches to the word "law."

BFA

I don't think you understand what scripture is saying when it is talking about law. You are reading in english, you need to use what the words mean in english when you read in english. If you were to read in greek/hebrew, you would need to read with the understanding of someone who lived in that time/etc.

Words don't exist in a vacuum. You can't redifine them to mean whatever you want.

JM

 

[JonMiller]

The relevance comes from this statement you wrote:

This seems to me that you're postulating that 9 commandments of the 10 are binding, or at least "most people" would believe.
That statement isn't true according to the new testament.

We aren't concerned with human opinion, as it varies and isn't an authority to appeal to - we want to know the Scriptures, and these commandments have lost their jurisdiction on the redeemed according to them.

Victor

You don't understand what the Bible is refering to with juridiction or law, due to not understanding what the words mean because you refuse to use the definitions of the words and rather make up your own.

The Bible you are reading is an english translation, you need to use the meaning of the english words when thinking about it. If you were reading in hebrew, you would need to use the hebrew words (same with greek). That is with all attached meanings that such a reader (of english/hebrew or greek) would have.

When the translators pick the words they did, they did so because of the meanings that exist in english for those words and the concepts behind them. If no word/concept got the point accross, they should define new words to do so (this is how words get introduced into cultures).

JM

 

[JonMiller]

Note, all the writers of the Bible were familiar with the abstract definition of law as well as the law given at MT Sinai. The code of laws written up at babylon predate any of the writing in the Old Testament. As such, they were aware of both abstract and specific definitions of law, and so should you. So you shouldn't say that the abstract idea of law doesn't exist within the Bible.

JM

 

[VictorC]

You don't understand what the Bible is refering to with juridiction or law, due to not understanding what the words mean because you refuse to use the definitions of the words and rather make up your own.

The reason lexicons were produced was to enable anyone to determine the meaning of terms that exist in a language foreign to them. So, I could look up the definition of torah, choq, and mishpat, which all have differing meanings.

But the subject that you have brought to bear relates to the ten commandments. We can see the meaning of the term 'commandment' as it is used to identify the Mosaic covenant of the ten commandments. in Deuteronomy 4:13:
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

This is the word dabar, which means:
1) speech, word, speaking, thing
a) speech
b) saying, utterance
c) word, words
d) business, occupation, acts, matter, case, something, manner (by extension)

As you can see, this isn't a hard to understand; it is an utterance of the command actually defined by the verb tsavah
1) to command, charge, give orders, lay charge, give charge to, order
a) (Piel)
1) to lay charge upon
2) to give charge to, give command to
3) to give charge unto
4) to give charge over, appoint
5) to give charge, command
6) to charge, command
7) to charge, commission
8) to command, appoint, ordain (of divine act)
b) (Pual) to be commanded

This nearly makes the Scriptures available fully to those having only a remedial understanding of their translation.
Most of the time, I have found that the translators for many of our English Bibles have done an excellent job.

The Bible you are reading is an english translation, you need to use the meaning of the english words when thinking about it. If you were reading in hebrew, you would need to use the hebrew words (same with greek). That is with all attached meanings that such a reader (of english/hebrew or greek) would have.

When the translators pick the words they did, they did so because of the meanings that exist in english for those words and the concepts behind them. If no word/concept got the point accross, they should define new words to do so (this is how words get introduced into cultures).

JM

I have no trouble understanding the terms I find in Scripture.
You merely opine that I do, but you aren't pointing out where I'm misusing the concept of "law".

I hope you noticed that the ten commandments were the old covenant mediated in the hands of Moses. What has happened to that first covenant that the epistle to the Hebrews was written to address? For Hebrews 10:9 comes to the conclusion concerning Christ:
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

I must ask for you to explain why you believe that the covenant that was taken away somehow has retained jurisdiction over those redeemed from it.

Victor

 

[RND]

We aren't concerned with human opinion, as it varies and isn't an authority to appeal to - we want to know the Scriptures, and these commandments have lost their jurisdiction on the redeemed according to them.

Victor

What about the "unredeemed?" Do those commandments have anything to do with them?

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Wow! That should cover the whole gambit! BTW Victor, Paul doen't mention Idolatry, stealing, dishonoring parents, or using the name of the Lord in vain.

Was Paul saying those thing were OK because he didn't mention them?

 

[VictorC]

What about the "unredeemed?" Do those commandments have anything to do with them?

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Wow! That should cover the whole gambit! BTW Victor, Paul doen't mention Idolatry, stealing, dishonoring parents, or using the name of the Lord in vain.

Was Paul saying those thing were OK because he didn't mention them?

I love that passage - very simply, it indicated that the law isn't applied to the saints of God, washed by the Blood of Jesus and justified in Him.

So, what's the beef? Didn't you already know the disposition Paul describes for those who aren't redeemed, and yet were never members of the House of Israel and covered by their covenant?

Romans 2:12-15
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

The Gentiles may exibit the works of the law inside themselves, but that does not justify them. In fact, since they are outside the covenant God made with Israel, they are estranged from their heritage and the promises they received via Abraham 430 years before the law even existed (Galatians 3:17). This is explained in Ephesians 2:11-16

11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

So much for those without the law; it is only by redemption in the Blood of Jesus we Gentiles can take hold of the promises made to Father Abraham.

What about those in the law, those of the circumcision?
Not looking too good there, either. Remember, it is the doers of the law that are justified, and Jesus said Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? in John 7:19. Likewise, Paul speaks of the House of Israel when he wrote God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all in Romans 11:32.

Hence the conclusion that Paul made in Romans 3:19 is universal condemnation for everyone who hasn't been redeemed in Christ:
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Redemption is a purchase: the seller was the old covenant of the ten commandments, the buyer was Jesus Christ, and the medium of exchange was His Blood.

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Victor

 

[RND]

I love that passage - very simply, it indicated that the law isn't applied to the saints of God, washed by the Blood of Jesus and justified in Him.

So, what's the beef? Didn't you already know the disposition Paul describes for those who aren't redeemed, and yet were never members of the House of Israel and covered by their covenant?

Obviously the law has a use today isn't that correct? It points out the sin of the unregenerate. It is only a mirror to show someone's dirty face.

Romans 2:12-15
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

The Gentiles may exibit the works of the law inside themselves, but that does not justify them.

Paul is saying that those outside of the law, the Gentiles, when they do the law, or "keep" the law, they become a law unto themselves. In other words they don't need the law because they respect the law. Since they were "outside" of the law they died "outside" of the law. That means the "law" won't be used to "judge" them.

In fact, since they are outside the covenant God made with Israel, they are estranged from their heritage and the promises they received via Abraham 430 years before the law even existed (Galatians 3:17). This is explained in Ephesians 2:11-16

That's just it Victor, the gentiles aren't outside of the covenant, they can become part of the covenant through faith.

11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

So much for those without the law; it is only by redemption in the Blood of Jesus we Gentiles can take hold of the promises made to Father Abraham.

Right, and those promises weren't a "law" or a "covenant" they were outside of the law. If they were part of the law then they would cease to be promises. Otherwise faith would be void.

Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

What about those in the law, those of the circumcision?
Not looking too good there, either. Remember, it is the doers of the law that are justified, and Jesus said Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? in John 7:19. Likewise, Paul speaks of the House of Israel when he wrote God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all in Romans 11:32.

Which law?

Hence the conclusion that Paul made in Romans 3:19 is universal condemnation for everyone who hasn't been redeemed in Christ:
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Redemption is a purchase: the seller was the old covenant of the ten commandments, the buyer was Jesus Christ, and the medium of exchange was His Blood.

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Sorry Victor, but there is still a law to live up to in the New Covenant.

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Now this new law is fulfilled in Christ, "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." But it certainly doesn't negate the law.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Obviously the law has a use today isn't that correct? It points out the sin of the unregenerate. It is only a mirror to show someone's dirty face.

What good does it do to look into a mirror what's been scratched, dented, distorted, and had dirt ground into it? It will only make your dirty face look dirtier than it actually bes. Matter of fact, like Lady MacBeth it will stain and blot in a manner that never goes away no matter how many times you wash, because every time you look in that mirror, the grime already set in it, the scratches and distortions already marring the surface; these bes superimposed upon you, and you will never see the cleansing what only comes by FAITH, friend, by FAITH ... no, because you bes seeksy the wrong reflection. You do not behold the face of the Lord through that glass, but the axe of the executioner. That bes why the law has no power to save, only to enslave, and why those what bes redeemed bes redeemed from the curse of the law in this regard.

Sorry Victor, but there is still a law to live up to in the New Covenant.

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Oh no no no no no you didn't. No you DIDN'T. You did NOT just quote Jeremiah 31:33 and deliberately omit verse 34 to attempt to make it mean the exact opposite ... oh no no NO NO NO you DIDN'T!!!!

Now you listen well and you carve this into your very soul that poison may be excised and your ears unstopped and you may be healed:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
​

The curse of the law bes the aeternatis memori ... the eternal remembrance of sin. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse FOR us. His word bes alive in those who receive of His glory having done nothing to merit His mercy and compassion.

Now this new law is fulfilled in Christ, "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." But it certainly doesn't negate the law.

Ah but it DOES fulfill it...

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

THAT bes the first part of the mystery of the telos

What bes we to behold in that glass? What transforms us, gazing at the law or gazing at the glory of God? Nothing less than His perfection and His perfect love which drives out ALL fear (and all torment) can avail us.

2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[RND]

Christ didn't remove anything and in fact made the law even harder to "live up to."

Mat. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

No law has been abolished or done away with.

What good does it do to look into a mirror what's been scratched, dented, distorted, and had dirt ground into it? It will only make your dirty face look dirtier than it actually bes. Matter of fact, like Lady MacBeth it will stain and blot in a manner that never goes away no matter how many times you wash, because every time you look in that mirror, the grime already set in it, the scratches and distortions already marring the surface; these bes superimposed upon you, and you will never see the cleansing what only comes by FAITH, friend, by FAITH ... no, because you bes seeksy the wrong reflection. You do not behold the face of the Lord through that glass, but the axe of the executioner. That bes why the law has no power to save, only to enslave, and why those what bes redeemed bes redeemed from the curse of the law in this regard.
Oh no no no no no you didn't. No you DIDN'T. You did NOT just quote Jeremiah 31:33 and deliberately omit verse 34 to attempt to make it mean the exact opposite ... oh no no NO NO NO you DIDN'T!!!!

Now you listen well and you carve this into your very soul that poison may be excised and your ears unstopped and you may be healed:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
​

The curse of the law bes the aeternatis memori ... the eternal remembrance of sin. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse FOR us. His word bes alive in those who receive of His glory having done nothing to merit His mercy and compassion.


Ah but it DOES fulfill it...

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

THAT bes the first part of the mystery of the telos

What bes we to behold in that glass? What transforms us, gazing at the law or gazing at the glory of God? Nothing less than His perfection and His perfect love which drives out ALL fear (and all torment) can avail us.

2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I love that passage - very simply, it indicated that the law isn't applied to the saints of God, washed by the Blood of Jesus and justified in Him.

So, what's the beef? Didn't you already know the disposition Paul describes for those who aren't redeemed, and yet were never members of the House of Israel and covered by their covenant?

Romans 2:12-15
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

The Gentiles may exibit the works of the law inside themselves, but that does not justify them. In fact, since they are outside the covenant God made with Israel, they are estranged from their heritage and the promises they received via Abraham 430 years before the law even existed (Galatians 3:17). This is explained in Ephesians 2:11-16

11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

So much for those without the law; it is only by redemption in the Blood of Jesus we Gentiles can take hold of the promises made to Father Abraham.

What about those in the law, those of the circumcision?
Not looking too good there, either. Remember, it is the doers of the law that are justified, and Jesus said Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? in John 7:19. Likewise, Paul speaks of the House of Israel when he wrote God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all in Romans 11:32.

Hence the conclusion that Paul made in Romans 3:19 is universal condemnation for everyone who hasn't been redeemed in Christ:
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Redemption is a purchase: the seller was the old covenant of the ten commandments, the buyer was Jesus Christ, and the medium of exchange was His Blood.

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Victor

Nothing to add ... just want to say this post bes one of the more awesome and clear presentations of truth it has heard in a long while. So much confusion attends the legalistic contingent it bes difficult to imagine anyone could choose that over the simple righteousness of Christ and the good News of the Gospel. Thank you for putting it all so neatly together VictorC, your work here parallels what God shows Moriah too.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Christ didn't remove anything and in fact made the law even harder to "live up to."

Interesting that you see it that way. That bes not how Moriah experiences Him or His teaching. In a relationship, one does not reference a set of rules for behavior. One references the love brought to life in the heart.

No law has been abolished or done away with.

You miss the entire point. You will not bring Moriah down under cruel bondage again. God will not permit it. The lying lips of the Accuser will be sealed in silence by the finger of the Almighty.

 

[RND]

Interesting that you see it that way. That bes not how Moriah experiences Him or His teaching. In a relationship, one does not reference a set of rules for behavior. One references the love brought to life in the heart.

It bes a figure of speech frankly and shows the direct need for the Savior in one's life.

Jesus goes on later in the same chapter to explain what one must do to "be perfect even as God bes perfect."

Mat 5:33 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

You miss the entire point. You will not bring Moriah down under cruel bondage again. God will not permit it. The lying lips of the Accuser will be sealed in silence by the finger of the Almighty.

Nope, I'm not missing anything. Just because I'm not subject to the law because I obey the law through the Spirit doesn't mean I'm bringing you into bondage. Only you can do that by not obeying the commandments of God.

The law was made for the unjust, not the righteous.

No offense but by your answer you seem like your already in bondage to the law.

 

[djconklin]

>this emphasis on "the 10 commandments" is interesting given that the bible says that God said if you LOVE me KEEP my commandments... thus before the 10 commands comes love.....

Bingo! Love is the answer.

 

[djconklin]

>The law was made for the unjust, not the righteous.

And since we are all sinners ... Even the angels have laws--Satan was kicked out because he violated the 1st--love God with all your heart, mind and strength.

 

[djconklin]

>For example the cohabiting couple probably have a better and more loving relationship than the Adventist couple that are together for appearances sake. The fact that many Adventist marriages are breaking up we should be the last to talk about godless love when we cannot even keep our marriages loving.

Lust is never better than love.

As for many Adventist marriages breaking up I know of three in a church of over a hundred families. And one of those was because hse married someone who was not a Christian and he broke up with her.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Jon Miller,

And I could point out verses where what is described includes (most of) the 10 commandments. Any time that the new testament says not to murder (or hate), it is including one of the 10 commandments.

Since you completely side-stepped my questions, I will pose them again. Perhaps you inadvertently missed them.

What law is described in Romans 7:1-7?

What law is described in 2 Corinthians 3:6-16?

What law is described in Galatians 4:21-31?
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So it was right to murder before Moses? No, it was still wrong to muder.

Exactly. By your own admission, sin exists in the absence of a codified system of law.

If it was still wrong to murder, then the 10 commandments did exist before moses (at least, the 6th or whatever commandment it is).

You make the assumption that the mind of God only exists in an environment where the law also exists. This is not a biblical assumption.

It was refering to a specific implimentation of the law (also called the law).

Please show us the exact verse in Galatians 3 that references a specific implimentation of the law. Thanks.

The 4th commandment is the one that most people think is a no longer valid implementation. Such as laws about giving elephants baths no longer being a valid implementation (I might have the example down wrong, but I am sure you have heard of the numbe rof rediculous laws that are still on the books, because at some point in the past they were needed). I am not so sure, since it is with another 9 that most people hold as valid.

I'm sure you are aware that you did not answer my question. Did the sabbath have a starting point? Can you claim that the fourth commandment has always been if it actually had a starting point?

I am just using the meaning of words. Words have meaning, ideas exist, you can't make them go away by sticking your head in the sand.

To date, you haven't really offered any Scriptural support for your theories. What relationship do you have with sand?

Sure, why not? . . . There is the possibility that you don't, but then you scare me.

Since you believe that the Spirit convicts us with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment, why does it frighten you to imagine a world in which the law has been fulfilled? In such a world, sin and righteousness and judgment still exist through the ministry of the Spirit (please read John 14 and 16).

I still think that you do but that you don't understand what the word law means or that you are lying to yourself.

I would invite you to take my words at face value. I am, in fact, being quite honest and direct with you. I have already cited the texts that confirm that all of the old covenant, including the ten commandments, has become obsolete and fading. Someone was told to get rid of the slave woman, and I take that quite seriously.

I don't think you understand what scripture is saying when it is talking about law.

If I don't understand then show me where I've misunderstood. A good place to start would be to cite the Scriptures that confirm your position and to deal directly with the questions and comments that I raise. In doing so, you will finally begin address my "error" directly.

You are reading in english, you need to use what the words mean in english when you read in english. If you were to read in greek/hebrew, you would need to read with the understanding of someone who lived in that time/etc. Words don't exist in a vacuum. You can't redifine them to mean whatever you want.

Don't just talk around the issue. Show me.

BFA

 

[VictorC]

Obviously the law has a use today isn't that correct? It points out the sin of the unregenerate. It is only a mirror to show someone's dirty face.

Yes, the law of Moses does indeed have a use, according to the purpose it had designed into it. It leads the unregenerate to Christ by showing that person their need for a redeemer, since they aren't able to establish their own righteousness before a holy God. That's the "roadmap" intent that is apparent in Galatians 3:21-25:

21: Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22: But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23: But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25: But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Once adopted and sealed, the recipient has no further need for the law, and the law has lost its jurisdiction to condemn since propitiation has been made to satisfy it according to Romans 3:23-26.

Paul is saying that those outside of the law, the Gentiles, when they do the law, or "keep" the law, they become a law unto themselves. In other words they don't need the law because they respect the law. Since they were "outside" of the law they died "outside" of the law. That means the "law" won't be used to "judge" them.

Romans 2:12 is clear when it says "as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law", and is clarified in Ephesians 2:11-12 when it concluded the Gentiles having "no hope". The Gentiles were denied a relationship with God, and they had no hope of approaching Him as long as Moses stood between them and the promises given to Abraham.

That's just it Victor, the gentiles aren't outside of the covenant, they can become part of the covenant through faith.

The tense of the verbs you're using is improper; by the present tense the Gentiles are freely accepted into the new covenant of Blood propitiation and adoption, but in the past-tense they had no hope of the Mosaic covenant of law, unless they became cicumcised and joined Israel; "taking hold of His (Mosaic) covenant", Isaiah 56:6.

Right, and those promises weren't a "law" or a "covenant" they were outside of the law. If they were part of the law then they would cease to be promises. Otherwise faith would be void.

Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

I believe you have Abraham and Moses confused; the law referenced here was mediated by Moses and was a barrier between the Gentiles and Abraham.

Which law?

Moses.

Sorry Victor, but there is still a law to live up to in the New Covenant.

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

I had written about this at greater length in a thread started by Tall73 in the denom-specific theology forum, in my post God replaces the schoolmaster. The bottom line is that the law described here wasn't from Sinai, and that is specified in the verse immediately prior to both your selections above. By the way, that thread didn't get the traffic we had hoped it would; TrustAndObey wrote about a hundred posts before she tossed in the towel and put me on her 'ignore' feature. Feel free to add your thoughts if you like; my conclusion is that the new covenant describes the entrance of the Spirit of adoption.

Now this new law is fulfilled in Christ, "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." But it certainly doesn't negate the law.

If our sins and iniquities aren't to be remembered again, the premise of an investigatire judgment just flew out the window - and so does the need for a law to accuse us of infractions.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Just two verses later Paul notes For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin in Romans 7:14.
That is the specific fault of the Mosaic covenant identified in Hebrews 8:7; yes, the law is holy, but you are not.

That's why we were delivered from this law that cited the contents "thou shalt not covet" in Romans 7:6-7. No one was or is ever going to pass the litmus test of that covenant, and that is the reason Jesus Christ came to redeem us from it (Galatians 4:4-5).

Victor