Can a Person Lose Salvation?

[GenemZ]

So people were ignorant for 1500 years or so of this "overwhelming truth" in the Bible and suddenly discovered what seems so obvious to you? That does not strike you a least bit odd?

Why does what you just said, make me think of Martin Luther? Who had the Catholic Church's hit squads looking for him because he broke through 1500 years of ignorance and darkness?

The masses were dumb back then. Ignorant and uneducated. They had superstitious concepts of religion and had many neurotic fears as a result. These thought they could lose, or gain, their salvation for many reasons, but not one reason was Biblical. If you are works oriented you will feel you can lose your salvation. If you are grace oriented, you will learn that you can not lose it.

Answer this? Why is it that the sins of unbelievers will not be mentioned at the final judgement?

"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books." Revelation 20:12 NKJV

The unbelievers will be judged according to their works (not sins).
But, the sins of believers can get them sent to Hell?

The reason sins will not be mentioned is because our sins were already judged on the Cross. They can not be judged twice! To be judged for our sins, is to say that Jesus was not judged for our sins! Can't have it both ways.

The reason unbelievers will be judged according to their works is to show that the only work God accepts is the work of Jesus on the Cross. All their works will be trotted out before them to show them that no matter what works they performed in life, none of them can equal the work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. That all their works fall short of God's acceptance. That their works are as filthy rags in God's sight.


"But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away." Isaiah 64:6 NKJV

If the unbeliever's sins will not be mentioned, how can the believer's sins (which were already judged on the Cross!) send them to Hell? If you would only look at the details contained in the Scripture and accept them, you will see to think that we can lose our salvation because of our sins is blasphemy! And, our works can not cause us to lose our salvation either! Our works can cause us to lose our rewards, but not our salvation! This is clearly presented in the Scriptures!

"For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 NKJV


He will suffer total loss! Loss of of rewards. (You read that?) But, he will be saved as a man running from a burning furnace. The only thing saved will be his soul! The Bible says that! Saved!

So? (let us reason together).....

How can it be that a believer can have done nothing to please God after he was saved? Lose all his rewards for Eternity? And still be saved? And? Even the sins of the unbeliever are never mentioned at his judgement (because our sins can not be judged twice). Jesus paid for our sins! He took the judgement for our sins upon himself. But, we are now to pay for our sins? Come on now!

For some reason you think that a believer's sins can cause him to lose his salvation? But, a believer can have not any good works in their lifetime, yet still be saved? (1 Cor 3:11-15 )

If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

Now....... in spite of all that, you can shoot off verses and make them appear to say we can lose our salvation. But they never say anything about salvation being lost. But, what about all the Scripture I just showed you? Simply ignore it? Why do you chose to throw it in the trash can?


Who is being reasonable here? Some confuse stubborness for conviction. Yet, in God's economy stubborness will get you convicted! I don't give an owl's hoot how many people believe we can lose our salvation. In Martin Luther's day the majority believed you could buy access to Heaven with money. Yet, does the Scriptures tell you what is truth? Or, do the traditions of men (who distort Scripture) to get control over our fears and soul?

Nothing has changed. Men still believe what their fears tell them is so. And, some men still cling to Scripture to free them from those fears when they do not argue with what it says plainly. Your choice.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Revelation 20:12-14 NKJV

Even the unbeliever will not be judged according to their sins! But if a believer lives in sin? His sins will condemn him? Nonsense! Our works will be evaluated, not our sins!

2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2 niv

Sins are paid for. They have been judged. We can not be judged for our sins because Jesus took the penalty for our sins upon himself. To say a believer can lose his salvation for sinning, is to say that Jesus did not die for our sins. He did not die to draw attention to our sins. He died as the atonement for our sins! How can we lose our salvation for our sins, when even the unbeliever will not have his sins mentioned at the final judgement?

Excuse me for making too much sense.......

Grace and truth, GeneZ

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Ok, so you are saying that for 1500 years or so all Christians were being deceived about this and they were all too ignorant to know better until Luther showed some of them another way to live (argueably not a high point for Christians as we have only divided many times over since).

So now only the majority of us are still being deceived and that would mean we must be ignorant as well. Just so we know where we stand on your scale of intelligence.

Which would be more likely. That the Church would be able to successully deceive so many for so long about salvation with no one objecting? Or that a rogue Priest on the verge of being cutoff might realize he could justify himself, dismiss the Church and attract followers if he could convince people the Bible says they did not need Priests?

And if it is so obviously true that the Bible says this, why would life long protestants, theologians and pasters become Catholic? Are they suddenly struck ignorant after formerly being smart about this?

 

[Celticflower]

And if it is so obviously true that the Bible says this, why would life long protestants, theologians and pasters become Catholic? Are they suddenly struck ignorant after formerly being smart about this?

I'm not a Catholic, don't plan on becoming one soon, but.....I'm totally behind you in this. (But then, Wesley did believe in the idea of "backsliders").

Celtie

 

[brotherjim]

Can a Person Lose Salvation?

What salvation are you referring to, exactly?

There are many, many things an individual may need to be saved from, including but not limited to drowning if they fall off of a cruise ship.

Are you asking about being saved from having to wait out this church age, waiting for the Day of Redemption and/or Judgment Day, in Paradise vs. hell?

Or are you asking about being saved eternally, in the next age, after the Millennium, when only those who have obeyed God's Commandments will be allowed into the New Heaven? (Rev. 22:14)

"Jesus is the Author of eternal salvation to all those who obey Him."

 

[linden]

Ok, so you are saying that for 1500 years or so all Christians were being deceived about this and they were all too ignorant to know better until Luther showed some of them another way to live (argueably not a high point for Christians as we have only divided many times over since).

So now only the majority of us are still being deceived and that would mean we must be ignorant as well. Just so we know where we stand on your scale of intelligence.

Which would be more likely. That the Church would be able to successully deceive so many for so long about salvation with no one objecting? Or that a rogue Priest on the verge of being cutoff might realize he could justify himself, dismiss the Church and attract followers if he could convince people the Bible says they did not need Priests?

And if it is so obviously true that the Bible says this, why would life long protestants, theologians and pasters become Catholic? Are they suddenly struck ignorant after formerly being smart about this?

Let me count the ways:

The argument that one can loose their salvation is based on someone sinning. We all sin. So lets add this up. loose salvation if one sins or believe in the promises and doctrines that the The Word of God states that He alone holds our eternal security when we believe in Jesus Christ as our personal Savior.

The way I see it, Here are some of the doctrines just off the cuff that point to eternal security:

Propitiation: This doctrine alone is a slam dunk when understanding eternal security. But let me add this:

Sealed, regeneration, efficacious grace, indwelt by God the Son, Father and Holy Spirit, we are adopted (a son will always be a son). Positional sanctification. baptism of the Holy Spirit, redemption, justification, imputed eternal life, reconciliation, forgiveness (from the penalty of sin).

Lets not forget the Greek. There a plenty examples. Lets take the baptism of the Holy Spirit: 1 Cor. 12:12-13. It's a passive voice, basically God does it for us. Where is the verse that states after you "loose" your salvation, you must be "rebaptized" by the Holy Spirit? (hint, there is none). What if I go back and forth for say 60 years believing in God and then sinning up a storm and then getting saved again so on and so forth. A verse comes to mind about this:
James 1:8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.

2nd example in the Greek: En Christos = "in Christ"

Eternal Security = stability in our spiritual lives. Why? because we all foul up during our lives. God knows this. I can not imagine a Christian looking over his shoulder, wondering if that sin he just committed will be the one that sends him to hell (lack of common sense at best, insanity at worst). What kind of god would do that to his son?


Lets not forget the one of the ten essence of God. Hmmmm. Omnipotent = God is powerful enough to hold our salvation (we clearly are not). Since God created the universe, I think He can hold our salvation with His power.

and, The prodigal son is about a believer getting back in fellowship with God.
and, Revelation 3:20 and following:

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."


This verse is about getting back into fellowship, not salvation.

blah blah blah.

Linden

 

[DrBubbaLove]

We are in agreement on the last part, "blah,blah,blah" so we will just have to disagree on the rest. So you never wondered why what seems so obvious to you never occured to to anyone reading and studying the same text for 1500 years?
If one is saved and cannot lose that status, why would we have to work out our salvation with "fear and trembling" or concern ourselves with possbily losing the race or taking care less "you fall". Are these then just empty warnings to Christians trying to get them to live better lives?

 

[Qoheleth]

blah blah blah.

Unreal.

The Love for our Lord Jesus Christ is just spilling out here

Peace people, peace


Q

 

[GenemZ]

Ok, so you are saying that for 1500 years or so all Christians were being deceived about this and they were all too ignorant to know better until Luther showed some of them another way to live (argueably not a high point for Christians as we have only divided many times over since).

So now only the majority of us are still being deceived and that would mean we must be ignorant as well. Just so we know where we stand on your scale of intelligence.

Which would be more likely. That the Church would be able to successully deceive so many for so long about salvation with no one objecting? Or that a rogue Priest on the verge of being cutoff might realize he could justify himself, dismiss the Church and attract followers if he could convince people the Bible says they did not need Priests?

And if it is so obviously true that the Bible says this, why would life long protestants, theologians and pasters become Catholic? Are they suddenly struck ignorant after formerly being smart about this?

I noticed you did not attempt to do what was needed. Address the passages of Scripture I gave? That would be a good start. Otherwise, what really counts may get ignored if I follow your lead.

Majority? Minority? So what! What does the Word of God say!

Please get back on the track.....

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

We are in agreement on the last part, "blah,blah,blah" so we will just have to disagree on the rest.

Sounds like you do not want to reason, and only wish to antagonize. What good is that? The rest that you disagree on is a doctrinal dissertation on the Word of God. Maybe, the problem is that you just do not understand what he was saying? Not a word of it?

So you never wondered why what seems so obvious to you never occured to to anyone reading and studying the same text for 1500 years?
If one is saved and cannot lose that status, why would we have to work out our salvation with "fear and trembling"

Because you have been born again! You are new creation!

2 Corinthians 5:17
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

We are like a babe in a world surrounded by evil thinking. We must learn truth to overcome that evil. Evil will resist truth. Hence, we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling! Some were even martyred because they refused to quit in their quest for truth to overcome evil in their generation. The world will not understand you if you grow in grace..... It frightful when you start out. You will be hit with many false teachings along the way to try and sucker you off the path. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. Anyone would be frightened at this until they become strong in truth. The Truth will make you free.

or concern ourselves with possbily losing the race or taking care less "you fall". Are these then just empty warnings to Christians trying to get them to live better lives?

You lose the race when you get weighed down by false doctrine. You fall from grace, then false teachings have an appeal. Denial of what is plainly written, and twisting what is not to mean what you want it to mean, is a sign that one has fallen from Grace. You will know them by their fruit.

1 John 4:18
"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."

We are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. But, we do not remain in fear and trembling if we mature. How could one ever stop fearing if they believed they could lose their salvation? Impossible!

Philippians 1:9
"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."

What is so often times missed is that love abounds in knowledge and insight! Sound doctrine and the application of wisdom.

Love perfected drives out fear. But, if our knowledge is faulty, we will be forever walking in fear and trembling. Knowing we can not lose our salvation is absolutely foundational to having inner happiness and inner peace. Yes, we can lose out in doing God's will for our lives by being sucked into false teachings. But, we can not lose our salvation.

John 6:37-40
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”


Note?


"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. "



How do you argue with a passage like that? What's the point? He said he shall lose none of all that come to Him. Period! You are arguing against the Lord Himself.....

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[n2wolves]

1 Cor. 10:12

Christians must take heed lest they fall.

Christians must take care that they do not fall away from the living God (cf. Heb. 3:12; 6:4-8; 10:26-39; 11:15-16; 12:15). They must obey and work out their own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12).

Christians can stray from the truth (Ja. 5:19).

Some Christians in the first century had already strayed from the faith (1 Tim. 6:21).

Christians who stray from the truth are sinners (Ja. 5:19). If they turn back to God, they are saved from death (Ja. 5:19-20).

Not only can a Christian fall away, but he can cause a brother to stumble (Rom. 14:13, 21).




2 Th. 2:1-3

The resurrection will not come until after the falling away.

The falling away (i.e., the apostasy) was at work in the First Century (2 Th. 2:7; cf. 2 Tim. 2:18).

Some people turned aside after Satan (i.e., fell away) during the First Century (1 Tim. 5:15; 6:21).

The apostle Paul knew that he could be lost after having been saved (1 Cor. 9:27; Phil. 3:12-14).




Gal. 5:4; Heb. 12:15

Christians can fall from grace.

Christians who have been hindered from obeying the truth have fallen from grace (Gal. 5:4, 7).

A believer (Christian) falls away by not holding fast his confidence and the boast of his hope until the end (Heb. 3:6). He has an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God (Heb. 3:12). He is hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Heb. 3:8, 13, 15).

Christians who do not endure but throw away their confidence will not receive the promise (Heb. 10:35-39).

The branches in Jesus that do not bear fruit are taken away, cast into the fire, and burned (Jn. 15:1-6). They do not keep Jesus' commandments (Jn. 15:10).




1 Tim. 4:1-3


Some people will depart from the faith in the later times; giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods (cf. Col. 2:16-23; 1 Tim. 6:21; Ja. 5:19-20).

Some Christians wander away from the faith because they love money (1 Tim. 6:9-10).




2 Tim. 3:1-9


Perilous times will come in the last days. Men will have a form of godliness but deny its power. We must turn away from them.

Evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse; therefore, the falling away will grow worse and worse (2 Tim. 3:13).

False prophets and false teachers lead some Christians away form God by exploiting them with deceptive words (2 Pet. 2:1-22; cf. Eph. 20:28-30).

The people who are untaught and unstable twist the Scriptures to their destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).




1 Tim. 4:6-10


Christians must be nourished in the words of faith the sound doctrine. They must reject false doctrines exercising themselves to godliness to avoid departing from the faith.

Christians must take care that they are not hardened by the deceitfulness of sin having an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God (Heb. 3:6-15).

If a brother strays from the truth, the one who turns him back will save his brother's soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins (Ja. 5:19-20).




2 Tim. 3:10-11


Christians must be careful to follow the apostles' doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, long-suffering, love, perseverance, persecutions, and afflictions.




2 Tim. 3:16-17

Christians must carefully follow the Scriptures.




Heb. 3:12; 4:11Christians must be diligent to enter heaven, lest they fall away (Heb. 4:11).

Christians must be diligent, lest they fall short of God's grace (Heb. 12:15). Christians must be diligent to make their calling and election sure (2 Pet. 1:10). Christians must be careful not to fall from their own steadfastness being led away with the error of the wicked (2 Pet. 3:17-18).

Christians must exercise their senses to discern good and evil by becoming skilled in the word of righteousness (Heb. 5:12-14).




Heb. 6:4-6


If Christians fall away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God.




Heb. 10:26-31


When Christians sin willfully, they trample the Son of God under foot, count the blood of the covenant by which they had been sanctified a common thing, and insult the Spirit of grace.

Christians can throw away their confidence (Heb. 10:35).

Christians can shrink back to destruction (Heb. 10:39).



OSAS is a false doctrine, scripture speaks for itself

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Was protesting the Church most of my life, a Baptist for most of that. So please do not accusing me of not knowing or understanding your position on these verses or where you are coming from when you do not even know me. All I did was ask some simple questions. We do not have to discuss something (scriptures) that we are obviously never going to agree on to cover this topic.

We are never going to agree on the meaning of these scriptures, so rather than go around and around about that, would rather discuss how we got to this point. We can discuss history, human logic, reason and motives behind both your position and ours. These things we aught to be able to discuss without spouting off scripture none us agree on to back our point. For every verse you quote, we could quote both a counter verse and an alternative meaning for your verse. So let's take a break from that please.

The claim was made in this thread that your position is obviously true from scripture. We do not agree. Some went further to say those who could not see this point themselves from reading scripture are just ignorant. Obviously we do not agree. Assuming you believe us to be Christians (I know, big assumption for some of you), I asked if you see most Christians today and throughout the ages as ignorant?

Given that there have been very intelligent people that have studied the Bible for thousands of years now, I asked why it took 1500 years for someone to suddenly realize what you now say is plainly obvious in scripture?

Deception was mentioned in this thread. We are deceived someone claimed. So I basically asked why you think the Church deceived for 1500 years and then how could it continue to do so after the "cat was out of the bag" so to speak? How could that Church continue to grow once the “gig” was up?

If deception were true, then until Luther where are the dissenters revealing or attempting to reveal what many here have claimed is plainly obvious? It is not like the Church has never had dissenters until the 16th century. Were all dissenters obviously ignorant too?

 

[Celticflower]

denominations. "Demon nations."

GeneZ

I find this to be as offensive as the non-denominational preacher who seemed to delight in referring to members of denominational churches as "non-Christian. There is no need or room for name calling within the body of Christ.

Celtie

 

[Qoheleth]

Many do not love Christ as they should. They deny the plain spoken objective Word of God, and refsue to have it clarified by those who can. They only love their own idea of who they think Christ should be according to their natural preference. That is why we find thousands of conflicting denominations. "Demon nations."

So, you are now labeling all those within established denominations (including the EOC and the RCC, Im sure) as being "Demons" since they are part of "Demon nations"?

Q

 

[DrBubbaLove]

genez,
In reading this entire thread, there is no "discussion" of scripture. Obviously from your response to me you are not willing to discuss scripture. You just want to tell people what you think it says. That is not discussion, it is preaching your doctrine and you have a right to do that. But that style is not conducive to dialogue or understanding. Neither are snide comments or taunts directed at another poster in an attempt to goad people into your game.

Most of this thread is just one side quoting against the other often using the same text. It is like two kids on the playground arguing about who had the ball first or what flavor ice cream is best. What would be the point of my joining in on that? I acknowledged your view of scripture and indicated mine differed. Each of you could have done the same on the first few pages of this after presenting your view. If I have no further point to make about those verses or our disagreement in understanding them, what is the use of repeating the same thing?

As far as history goes let's stick to just one issue at a time to stay on topic. The thread concerned the doctrine of OSAS. You will find that concept taught NO WHERE for about 1500 years after the beginning of Christianity. Say whatever you will about the Church, but you cannot point to any historical reference of Christians supporting OSAS or using the Bible to support that until around Luther's days. If you could you would do so rather than resorting to just implying OSAS is going back to the way it must have been before any alleged deception or distortion.

In fact if you read any of the early Church writings you see concern for exactly the opposite. Like how do we bring someone back when they obviously lost salvation? Or can they even come back after losing it? Should we allow them back in the Church? They would not be having those discussions if they believed in OSAS. And these writings predate anything approaching an organized Church.

At least we have clearly established that you think us all deceived and ignorant fools. Would have taken a bet that was where you would go with that. Besides Southern Baptist roots, have gotten around some in the protestor world. Been a Baptist, EP, IB and just plain Independent. Each protest various positions of the Church.

 

[Qoheleth]

Say whatever you will about the Church, but you cannot point to any historical reference of Christians supporting OSAS or using the Bible to support that until around Luther's days.

Just as point of clarification, (if needed) Luther nor the Confessions ever taught OSAS, never.


Q

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Just as point of clarification, (if needed) Luther nor the Confessions ever taught OSAS, never.Q

Thanks Q. Good point to be fair. Though I do think it was not his intention, at the very least Luther does deserve credit for ushering in the age allowing such doctrine to develop.

 

[linden]

OK, what about the old Testament believers. Are you saying that, all the Old Testament saints could of lost their salvation?

Linden

 

[GenemZ]

I find this to be as offensive as the non-denominational preacher who seemed to delight in referring to members of denominational churches as "non-Christian. There is no need or room for name calling within the body of Christ.

Celtie

The body of Christ would not to be divided if all walked in truth. Truth does not contradict itself. I did not say they are non-Christians. You said that.

Christians that accept false doctrine are still Christians because they believed in the saving work of Christ. If I said that they were non-Christian, then you should tell me what you did.

This is what I wrote:

Many do not love Christ as they should. They deny the plain spoken objective Word of God, and refuse to have it clarified by those who can. They only love their own idea of who they think Christ should be according to their natural preference. That is why we find thousands of conflicting denominations. "Demon nations."

This is what Paul wrote:

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."
2 Timothy 4:3 niv


I ask you.... Did Paul say they were non-Christians? Neither did, I.

What causes divisions in the body of Christ? That is why I wrote what I did. You are not supposed to like it. For it is a an unpleasant reality that exists. And, I refuse to make excuses for wrongdoing that causes divisions in the body of Christ. Who divides believers? God? Or, demons?

Ephesians 6:12niv
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

And, that is why I see the divisons in the body of Christ that we call "denominations", as being "demon nations." Don't have to like it, sir. But its not God who causes divisions in his body on earth. Who does?

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Most of this thread is just one side quoting against the other often using the same text. It is like two kids on the playground arguing about who had the ball first or what flavor ice cream is best.

No.... its more like one kid telling the kid who owns the ball that it is not his to keep. His father gave it to him. The other kid does not want him to have it. So, he takes out the letter from his Dad that tells him how he sent him this gift for his own. Then, the other kid tries to say his father did not write that letter that way. That's more what it is like.

What would be the point of my joining in on that? I acknowledged your view of scripture and indicated mine differed.

But, you never showed how, or why. So? You don't agree? That's it? OK. Fine... What's next?

Each of you could have done the same on the first few pages of this after presenting your view. If I have no further point to make about those verses or our disagreement in understanding them, what is the use of repeating the same thing?

To show others what you are not agreeing with.

As far as history goes let's stick to just one issue at a time to stay on topic. The thread concerned the doctrine of OSAS. You will find that concept taught NO WHERE for about 1500 years after the beginning of Christianity.

So? When was the doctrine of the Deity of Christ first taught officially? It was not truth until it was? If some farm boy reading the Scriptures saw this by God's grace? It would not be truth until some official document made it so? That's the point you are missing. I do not give a darn when it became an issue. If its truth that was not seen earlier, it still remains truth. You seem to think that all truth contained in Scripture was known from the beginning of the Church age by all the spiritual leaders.

Say whatever you will about the Church, but you cannot point to any historical reference of Christians supporting OSAS or using the Bible to support that until around Luther's days. If you could you would do so rather than resorting to just implying OSAS is going back to the way it must have been before any alleged deception or distortion.

I only use Luther as an illustration. Men were fallen into spiritual darkness. The church had fallen from grace. He was a man that God tapped on the shoulder and used to expose the evils that the church was imposing upon believers. How long was the church corrupt before Luther came along? A very long time. What could the established church have claimed when Luther explained the Scriptures? "For hundreds of years no one taught this! How can you be right?"

(sort of like what you are telling me about OSOS).

In fact if you read any of the early Church writings you see concern for exactly the opposite.

It is a very human thing to do, to think one can lose their salvation. It requires transformation by accepting faith. Man tends to Deify their own way of doing things. If it were up to man, man would have those who failed to walk in grace to lose their salvation. Its a natural feeling to have. Yet, God is not a man. His word says things that go contrary to human nature.

Isaiah 55:8
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD."


Jesus had to deal with that very nature in his own disciples who felt indignant to those not showing God respect as they saw fit.

"But they did not receive Him, because He was traveling toward Jerusalem. When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?" But He turned and rebuked them, [and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of." Luke 9:53-55 (NASB)

If anyone could lose their salvation, these disciples were ready for it. Jesus rebuked them in the most offensive way.

Like how do we bring someone back when they obviously lost salvation? Or can they even come back after losing it? Should we allow them back in the Church? They would not be having those discussions if they believed in OSAS. And these writings predate anything approaching an organized Church.

Mote point. You can not lose your salvation. But, you can lose fellowship with the Holy Spirit. How does one regain fellowship, should be the question.

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. " (1 John 1:8-10)

At least we have clearly established that you think us all deceived and ignorant fools.

There you go again. I was just showing that there are those who are ignorant and unstable (Peter's words, not mine) who distort the Word of God. These pass down false doctrines. The ones that need to be refuted. I am sure you did not originate this teaching about losing one's salvation on your own? Did you? No. You learned it from others who passed it down. Many are indoctrinated and become strongly conditioned to what they are told. That is one reason I keep repeating passages. Maybe it will melt a little bit of the resistance away at a time. Like, how can anyone deny what Jesus said in the passage that follows?

John 6:37-40
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”


Now? How many did Jesus say he would lose of all who believe in Him?

That's the point I have been making, folks!

And, I could care less if someone just saw that for the first time only last week, and everyone else had been teaching we can lose our salvation for over 2000 years.

That seems to get right by you. I can care less how new the understanding is. I only care about what the Word says.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Qoheleth]

that I shall lose none of all that he has given me,

Much stress has been put upon this text, and it has been pressed, that all those whom the Father had given him--a phrase frequently occurring in this chapter--must with all certainty, persevere to the end.

And yet, in the very next verse, our Lord himself declares, that one of those whom the Father had given him, did not persevere unto the end, but perished everlastingly.

His own words are, "Those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition." (John 17:12)
So even one of the twelve has been lost. This demonstrates that the phrase, "those whom thou hast given me," signifies here, if not in most other places, too, the twelve apostles, and them specifically.


Q