can a person be a christian and believe paul preached a false message?

[EmSw]

Of course you would It is the dead give away.

But he was using argumentative speech to depict a point.

Not unlike using parables for a Hebrew audience.

So, you don't think Paul was speaking the truth?

Sorry, every parable of Jesus contained truth.

 

[EmSw]

Truly?

Then we are all literally lumps of dough with a peck of yeast hidden in us.

Are you Reformed? If so, you think you're a lump of clay with sin in you. What's the difference to you?

 

[redleghunter]

Yes!

What was the purpose of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ?

What was the purpose of His crucifixion and death?

 

[EmSw]

What was the purpose of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ?

What was the purpose of His crucifixion and death?

And what does this have to do with Paul lying?

 

[redleghunter]

So, you don't think Paul was speaking the truth?

Sorry, every parable of Jesus contained truth.

Well of course every parable of Jesus taught a literal truth. But were the parables themselves actual events in history? Lazarus and the Rich man may be the only one.

So, look at Paul calling himself a liar using figurative speech and polemical argument. Is he truly announcing "I'm a liar and you must listen to me?" No, he is not. Look at the passage in context and you will see this.

Now look at the parables. Jesus usually prefaced the parables as "the Kingdom of God is like...", then He told his audience a story. In most cases a fictional story of some king or person and their actions. Jesus using a fictional story, a parable, to teach a moral truth. Like or as or a Similtude.

Using your Paul example, Jesus was teaching fables to the assembled group.

 

[redleghunter]

And what does this have to do with Paul lying?

Paul preached Christ crucified and risen.

He also taught what that meant as did Peter, John and the other apostles.

You have yet to address my comments on the definition of the Gospel message. The two posts which I show what Jesus commanded be preached to all nations Luke 24, and how it exactly matches the teachings of Paul in his epistles most notably in 1 Corinthians 15.

I believe if you addressed all of my posts back to you, what I ask would be abundantly clear.

Here are the posts:

can a person be a christian and believe paul preached a false message?

can a person be a christian and believe paul preached a false message?

 

[St_Worm2]

Sin cannot approach God. There would be no suffering nor temptations for the Divine. He had to take on humanity in order to suffer and be tempted. In order to overcome sin, He was tempted just as we are. To be victorious over temptations, He underwent them in the flesh, just as we do.

The cross was the last and great temptation from hell He endured. In all the things pertaining to His cross, He did not sin; He overcame and obtained victory over them.

In these victories, He defeated hell, and gave us examples to follow. Therefore, He said to take up our cross and follow Him. It is our cross by which we overcome and defeat hell, just as He did.

Hi Em, you are clearly a very, very intelligent person, and normally, such a thing is always a great blessing. In this case however, you are faced with the Cross of Christ (which is one of the very few things that none of us can "think" our way around, not even you, I sorry to say ).

The Bible calls Christ (and His Cross) a "stumbling block" and a "rock of offense", because it is offensive to our human sentimentalities. It's offensive 1) because it tells us that we are not/cannot be worthy and 2) because it doesn't allow us to reach the conclusion that you have, IOW, that we can do what 'He' did and "follow His example" (and that by doing so we can be found "good enough/righteous enough" to stand in His presence). The Incarnation and the Cross, in point of fact, tell us something else entirely

Outside of Christ and what He did, there is nothing but bad news, and the bad news is this: God is your "enemy" because you are a sinner, a child of wrath (Romans 5:10, 12; Ephesians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:22a) and you are going to die and be judged worthy of burning in Hell eternally because of it (because you didn't do what Christ did ).

Lawbreakers ("transgressors of the Law" .. James 2:10-11), that is, ANYONE "who falls short of the glory of God" .. Romans 3:23, will NEVER see God (not outside of Christ, anyway). One of the main reasons the Lord came here as a man was to do what no man has ever been able to do before or since, lead a perfect, sinless, righteous life before the Father, since that kind of life is the absolute minimum requirement for anyone who wishes to "approach God".

Christ also came here knowing that He would die on the Cross, but NONE of it was for Him, Em, He did it all for us He didn't come here to 'show us' the way to God, He came here because He 'is' the way to God, the only way and the only means of salvation (i.e. John 14:6; Acts 4:12).

This is why we are saved by "hearing/believing" in what He did for us (i.e. John 3:16, 18, John 5:24, John 20:31...), and by faithfully trusting that God will graciously choose to save us on that basis alone (just like He promised us He would), on the basis of an "alien" righteousness, Christ's righteousness (not our own), and on the basis of His death, because it's His death that paid that penalty for our sins.

As long as you continue to believe that you can "follow His example" and believe that you can be "good enough" in your attempts to do so, there is nothing but "bad news" for you on the horizon I'm sorry to say .. Hebrews 10:27.

WE are the reason for the Incarnation and the Cross , Em, the reason why both were necessary .. cf 2 Corinthians 5:21. He did it all for us because we are not (neither can we ever be) righteous enough to stand in God's presence, nor would we ever see "life" (because apart from the Cross, the only payment any of us can offer God for our sins is our own, eternal death).

This is why God "gave us" His Son

Yours in Christ,
David

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten
Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not
perish, but have everlasting life"
John 3:16
​

 

[FireDragon76]

If Paul was not an apostle of Christ, then Jesus' message was not meant for the gentiles... it's that simple.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Can the words of Jesus alone save? Or, do you think it is Jesus plus something else?

The "something else" are the sign and wonders that Jesus performed. He said in John that if people could not believe through His words that the Father was in Him and He was in the Father, believe it through the works He did. The works that Jesus did were the miracles, healings, and casting out of demons during His ministry on earth. He also said that greater works than the works He did we would do because He was going to the Father. When He went to the Father, He sent the Holy Spirit to indwell believers to accomplish that. The Early Church went on to do the same ministry accompanied by signs and wonders until the 5th Century when other leaders took over the Church and presented God as a stern judge instead of the loving and gracious God He is. John was aware of this starting to happen in his lifetime and that his why he emphasised that we should love one another because God is love. His last words before he died was that we should love one another.

I have re-read the gospels and Acts, as well as Paul's letters, and I find that Paul's message is exactly the same as that of Jesus. Believe that He is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead. That was the thread that runs through all of Paul's letters. He made it plain that he was chosen by God to preach the gospel to the Gentiles, and that he encouraged people to follow him as he followed Christ. There is a thread that runs through: Jesus did only what the Father told Him; The Holy Spirit does only what Jesus told Him; and Paul did and taught only what the Holy Spirit told him.

Jesus did say that when the Holy Spirit came, He would teach the things of God that the disciples could not take in while He was with them, but the anointing of the Spirit would teach them all things. Paul was anointed by the Holy Spirit, and his letters show the extended teaching that has been given to complete what Jesus taught in the gospels.

So, there has to be something added to both the words of Jesus and of Paul in order to win souls for Christ in our neo-Pagan world: signs and wonders. Miracles prove that God is alive, Jesus has risen from the dead, and the gospel is really true. All we have to do is to compare the results from attempts to preach the gospel without the miracles and the preaching of the gospel accompanied by miracles. There is no comparison. The vast majority of those who have made genuine commitment to Christ have done so as the result of the gospel accompanied by signs, wonders and miracles.

If the ministries of Jesus and Paul were not accompanied by signs and wonders, they would not have been opposed by the Jewish established religionists of their time. It was because of the miracles that the Jewish religionists became jealous and threatened by the fear that the credibility of their religion would have suffered because both Jesus and Paul showed they had the right goods when all they had were religious words, ceremonies and rituals.

 

[RDKirk]

Polemical speech. Yes he was using a technique familiar with people raised in a Hellenistic society.

I understood the style of Romans much better after having read Aristotle.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Since the Lord returned here and pressed St. Paul (His "chosen instrument .. to bear His name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel" .. v15) into service personally (Acts 9:1-19), and he was sent on his missionary journeys by the direct command of the Holy Spirit Himself (Acts 13:1-3), and he was highly regarded and beloved by the other Apostles (Acts 15:25), and his Epistles were referred to as "Scripture" by St. Peter (2 Peter 3:15-16), it seems to me that St. Paul and his Epistles are both the genuine article

Never mind though, because NOTHING you say will convince most people who hold such negative beliefs about St. Paul and his Epistles that they may be wrong

Yours in Christ,
David

Indeed so.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I've been chatting to someone who correctly states Christs words are all we need to be saved. But the person also believes Paul preached a false message.
Can the Holy Spirit dwell in someone( for if he does not you cannot be a christian) who believes half the books of the NT were written by someone who preached a false message

Incorrectly. We are saved through membership in the Church that Christ established.

 

[EmSw]

Hi Em, you are clearly a very, very intelligent person, and normally, such a thing is always a great blessing. In this case however, you are faced with the Cross of Christ (which is one of the very few things that none of us can "think" our way around, not even you, I sorry to say ).

Hello David. Thank you for the compliment. I say you are an intelligent and reasonable man. You have said much, so I will probably not get to it all.

My comments on the cross will be below. I will tell you I am not 'thinking' my way around the cross; this I assure you.

The Bible calls Christ (and His Cross) a "stumbling block" and a "rock of offense", because it is offensive to our human sentimentalities. It's offensive 1) because it tells us that we are not/cannot be worthy, 2) because it doesn't allow us to reach the conclusion that you have, IOW, that we can do what 'He' did and "follow His example" (and that by doing so we can be found "good enough/righteous enough" to stand in His presence). The Incarnation and the Cross, in point of fact, tell us something else entirely

The cross is not a stumbling block, nor a rock of offense to me. It is not offensive to me neither. Jesus' came to the earth to tell us good news about the kingdom, not to be a stumbling block to us. If He was a stumbling block, it was to those who loved their sin and desired to remain in it.

Why doesn't it allow to do what He did? Do you really think Jesus said to follow Him, knowing we can't? Not following Jesus is wanting to follow your own evil. I do see how those who want to do it their way, and not remove evil from their heart, find it difficult or even impossible to follow Him.

John said in 1 John 3:7 -

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

If someone tells me I can't be righteous by practicing righteousness (good works), I have to believe John and say they are deceiving me. If I practice righteousness, I am righteous just as He is righteous.

Outside of Christ and what He did, there is nothing but bad news, and the bad news is this: God is your "enemy" because you are a sinner, a child of wrath (Romans 5:10, 12; Ephesians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:22a) and you are going to die and be judged worthy of burning in Hell eternally because of it (because you didn't do what Christ did ).

That's why Jesus came to earth with good news. God's enemies are those who practice and continue in evil works. Yes, you will die and be judged worthy of hell IF you continue in your evil. However, Jesus told us how to be pardoned of our evil sins, with no penalty, no remembrance, no hell.

Lawbreakers ("transgressors of the Law" .. James 2:10-11), that is, ANYONE "who falls short of the glory of God" .. Romans 3:23, will NEVER see God. So one of the main reasons the Lord came here as a man was to do what no man has ever been able to do before or after, lead a perfect, sinless, righteous life before the Father, since that kind of life is the absolute minimum requirement for anyone who wishes to "approach God".

Who are those who will never see God? John says this -

3 John 1:11
Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God.

Those who continue in evil will never see God. Who does see God? Jesus said this -

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Those who have cleansed their heart and made it pure. Jeremiah said this -

Jeremiah 4:14
O Jerusalem, wash your heart from wickedness, that you may be saved. How long shall your evil thoughts lodge within you?

Why were they to wash their hearts from wickedness? That they may be saved. James said this -

James 4:8
Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

James tells us to purify our hearts. Why? So we may be saved and see God. Those who in the OT washed their hearts were saved. Why would it be any different today? God didn't change His mind.

So far, we have covered practicing righteousness, seeing God, and washing our hearts to be saved. The cross wasn't mentioned once in these things.

That's all the time I have for now. I will continue tomorrow, David. Have a great evening.

 

[redleghunter]

That's why Jesus came to earth with good news. God's enemies are those who practice and continue in evil works. Yes, you will die and be judged worthy of hell IF you continue in your evil. However, Jesus told us how to be pardoned of our evil sins, with no penalty, no remembrance, no hell.

Where did Jesus Christ specifically say we are pardoned by our works?

 

[redleghunter]

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

If someone tells me I can't be righteous by practicing righteousness (good works), I have to believe John and say they are deceiving me. If I practice righteousness, I am righteous just as He is righteous.

I see you do hold the apostle John as a true teacher of the Gospel. I do too.

What did John say washes our sins away?

1 John 1:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Em, "believers" are capable of following Christ BECAUSE we are saved, because we are already "in Christ" and have been given the power to do so (by the indwelling HS). Those who are not cannot follow Him/obey Him, because they do not "know" Him (Matthew 7:22-23), nor can they understand Him, because His words must be "spiritually appraised" .. 1 Corinthians 2:14.

This is why the Law is referred to as a παιδαγωγός [paidagogos] (a "harsh tutor"). While the Law of God has several very important functions in the life of a believer, for a non-believer, it really has only one main function or purpose, to drive them to Christ. IOW, it's purpose is to show the non-C who they are 'apart' from Christ, to help them see that they have no hope of "keeping" the Law/saving themselves, and to drive them to the feet of Christ as a result (with the hope that they might receive mercy from Him instead of the judgement and condemnation they rightly deserve .. i.e. Galatians 3:24).

This is what we "believe" in, this is what is means to be "saved by faith", or more specifically, saved by grace through faith, because no one but Christ can keep the Law perfectly (and if you try to do so apart from Him, you will only end up being destroyed in death).

The "good news" is, Jesus came here for that express purpose, to do for us what we could not do for ourselves. God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the very righteousness of God in Him (as you may know from 2 Corinthians 5:21). If He did not, He would be w/o the "bride" His Father promised Him because ALL would be lost (He chose to save a remnant however )

This is why (as well the most important "way") God is both gracious and merciful towards us. If we could "obey" the Law (as we were originally made to/intended to BTW .. Genesis 1:26-27; Ecclesiastes 7:29), God wouldn't need to be gracious or merciful towards us, and Jesus would have never needed to come here and die.

Talk to you tomorrow (Dv)

Yours in Christ,
David

Romans 11:5-6
"There is a remnant, chosen by grace, but if by grace, it cannot be on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."​

 

[redleghunter]

Hi Em, "believers" are capable of following Christ BECAUSE we are saved, because we are already "in Christ" and have been given the power to do so (by the indwelling HS). Those who are not cannot follow Him/obey Him, because they do not "know" Him (Matthew 7:22-23), nor can they understand Him, because His words must be "spiritually appraised" .. 1 Corinthians 2:14.

This is why the Law is referred to as a παιδαγωγός [paidagogos] (a "harsh tutor"). While the Law of God has several very important functions in the life of a believer, for a non-believer, it really has only one main function or purpose, to drive them to Christ. IOW, it's purpose is to show the non-C who they are 'apart' from Christ, to help them see that they have no hope of "keeping" the Law/saving themselves, and to drive them to the feet of Christ as a result (with the hope that they might receive mercy from Him, instead of the judgement and condemnation they rightly deserve .. i.e. Galatians 3:24).

This is what we "believe" in, this is what is means to be "saved by faith", or more specifically, saved by grace through faith, because no one but Christ can keep the Law, so if you try to do so apart from Him, you will be destroyed in death.

The "good news" is, Jesus came here for that express purpose, to do for us what we could not do for ourselves. God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the very righteousness of God in Him (as you may know from 2 Corinthians 5:21). If He did not, He would be w/o the "bride" His Father promised Him because ALL would have been lost (He decided to save a remnant however )

This is why, as well the most important "way", that God is both gracious and merciful towards us. If we could "obey" the Law (as we were originally made to/intended to BTW .. Genesis 1:26-27; Ecclesiastes 7:29), God wouldn't need to be gracious or merciful towards us, and Jesus would have never needed to come here and die.

Talk to you tomorrow (Dv)

Yours in Christ,
David

Romans 11:5-6
"There is a remnant, chosen by grace, but if by grace, it cannot be on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."​

Indeed as prophesied in Ezekiel.


Ezekiel 36: KJV

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Then in Jeremiah :


Jeremiah 31: KJV

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

And of course in Isaiah we see the mission of the Messiah is to carry and atone for our sins:

Isaiah 53: KJV

53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[EmSw]

Where did Jesus Christ specifically say we are pardoned by our works?

Luke 24
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And you are witnesses of these things.

Notice the word 'remission'. Repentance and remission of sins were to be preached after His death. Here is what Strong's says 'remission' is -

1. release from bondage or imprisonment
2. forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty
   

There's your answer.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If Paul was not an apostle of Christ, then Jesus' message was not meant for the gentiles... it's that simple.

Well I wouldn't say that. Peter had visions that God had given him.

Paul is not the only apostle that was shown truth as to why gentiles were included in the New Covenant.

 

[RDKirk]

Well I wouldn't say that. Peter had visions that God had given him.

Paul is not the only apostle that was shown truth as to why gentiles were included in the New Covenant.

Acts is very intriguing in its display of the immense barrier that the bigotry of the Hebraic Jews (for those attuned to see the issues). The Holy Spirit had to use quite crude blunt force to demonstrate conclusively to Peter that gentiles are included in salvation.

Even then, the Holy Spirit had to use even cruder blunt force (in the form of Saul of Tarsus) to force the gospel out of Jerusalem.

Even then, the Holy Spirit had to use Hellenic Jews operating out of Antioch rather than Hebraic Jews to spread the gospel beyond Jerusalem.

Even then, thirty years later, Peter had not fully separated himself from Hebraic bigotry against gentiles.