can a person be a christian and believe paul preached a false message?

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ToBeLoved

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That does not mean that all words are of equal authority or value. Satan is quoted in Scripture. Do you give THOSE words the same value as the words of God? Of course not!

But WHY not?

Because the text TELLS YOU "Satan said...".

Likewise, all Scripture may be inspired by God, but God inspired the writers of Scripture to write down specifically when God was speaking, and when somebody else was speaking.

(Also, please note, God did directly tell John to take dictation in Revelation, and warned that anybody who changed a word of THAT written scroll faced damnation, so God himself, speaking in heaven, and speaking last, made the point quite explicit that some text is more authoritative than other text. He also made it clear whenever he himself speaks in Scripture.)

So, sure, all Scripture is "God-breathed", but IN Scripture God said that Jesus was his Son, and to follow HIM (not anybody else), and God inspired the writers of Scripture to always explicitly indicate when God was speaking.

So, you may have a tradition of elevating Paul's, and Peter's and James' and Luke's, etc., words to having the same authority as Elohiym's, and YHWH's, and Jesus', and God's angels, just because their words appear in Scripture. But Scripture itself tells you that's not so.

Satan speaks in Scripture. You don't listen to him because he's identified as Satan. Similarly, you DO listen to God, and God's Son, and give that higher authority, because God makes sure that he's always clearly identified when he speaks, so that there's no mistaking it.

Jesus and Paul appear to conflict in several places. When they do, you have to read Jesus and do what HE said, and then do the work at reinterpreting Paul until you read Paul to mean what Jesus said. That is the proper direction to read Paul - as permanently, and utterly, subordinate to Jesus in all things. Paul even tells you that point blank in the Scriptures ("Is there a gospel of Paul?" He asks. And answers NO!). Paul also tells you that he is the least of the Apostles.

Essentially, if you privilege Paul over Jesus, as several branches of Christianity do - always claiming, as they do it, that, because Paul was inspired, Paul's words ARE Jesus, and that where they appear to conflict - and they do - that Jesus CLARIFIED himself through Paul - then you end up nullifying a lot of what Jesus said for an easier path of simple pure belief, as opposed to deeds.

That could be a persuasive argument, except that God took the last word in Scripture by pulling John up to Heaven and DICTATING word for word his words in Revelation - and those words - about men being judged based on their DEEDS - lines up with what Jesus said, and contradicts what Paul appears to say that has been called "faith alone".

So no, Paul's words do not have the same authority as Jesus'. Yes, they are Scripture. No, every word in Scripture is not of equal authority. Satan's words are in Scripture, and clearly identified. So are God's words, and Jesus' words. God inspired the authors to specifically highlight His Own Words, for a reason - because HE is God, and the final authority.

Paul, James and John conflict in their letters. The Apostles conflict somewhat with Jesus over food. One can pretend they don't, by adding an extra-biblical tradition that "Scripture cannot conflict", but it does. And where it does, God has provided the easy way to identify the highest authority: Jesus' words are always quoted, and the Father, speaking from Heaven, said to a whole crowd: "This is my beloved Son, listen to HIM."

So, CAN Paul be read to say that deeds count at final judgment. Sure. But he can ALSO be read to say that what you do does not count, just what you believe. And Jesus said that is not true. So, given two possible interpretations, one is right, because Jesus said so. The other one is wrong, even though it is a plain read of Paul in Romans. Unfortunately, this misuse of Paul is the primary theological error that divides evangelical Protestants from Catholics and the Orthodox today.

Paul is Scripture, but he is confusing. Peter said that, and it is true.

The bottom line is the answer to the question: Do the deeds that you do in life determine your final judgment.
Jesus said YES THEY DO.
Paul is read to say, and in Romans and Corinthians seems to say on a plain read, no they don't, your faith is all that counts.
That read of Paul contradicts Jesus, and THEREFORE is false, because Jesus is God and Paul is not. In the event of apparent conflict Jesus Trumps Paul. Always. This really SHOULD be obvious. That it isn't is probably because what Paul says is a lot easier to do in real life than what Jesus says.
Why would you think that saying that all scripture is God breathed is putting a heirarchy on words? I'm not getting that relation.

God breathed is that it is all stating Truth. The Truth that God is revealing to us about situations and reasons for different things. That is how we are able to better understand how Jesus fulfilled the law (because without the Old Testament what would that even mean to us). We would not even know what to expect of the Messiiah, had their not been an Old Testament. In the same way had Genesis not recorded how sin came into this world, we would not comepletely understand how and why man is separated from God.

So the Bible is the complete message that God has given us. Not that one person, although CHrist is the greatest, not that one other person is better or more or whatever, but that God's will is done through what He has done. And the greatest gift being sending of His Son to mankind.
 
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Vicomte13

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Why would you think that saying that all scripture is God breathed is putting a heirarchy on words? I'm not getting that relation.

It matters when it comes to what you have to DO to avoid Gehenna after death and the Lake of Fire at final judgment. That's why understanding the hierarchy matters.

To wit: to be forgiven your sins, do you have to forgive other people their sins against you? Yes or no.
The answer to that is yes. You will be forgiven your sins by God only to the extent that you forgive others sins against you.
For unforgiven sin you will be imprisoned and suffer until the last penny is paid.

So, if you don't want to suffer, you have to forgive everybody everything.
Jesus said that.

So, do you have to do that thing that Jesus said very explicitly? Or is just believing that Jesus is the Son of God enough to be forgiven all of your sins EVEN IF you do not forgive others their sins?

How you read the hierarchy of authority in the Bible answers that question. I can guess your answer.
 
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EmSw

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paul making a hypothetical argument of skeptics about how their sin brings glory to God thus they can sin to God's benefit. paul declares such thinking damnable.

Paul didn't say 'their' lie. Where did you get that? Did you make that up?
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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Paul didn't say 'their' lie. Where did you get that? Did you make that up?

it's derived from the context in which that verse is contained which starts in verse 3. paul indicates in verse 5 that he's 'speaking as a man'.

he uses the same hypothetical argumentation in romans 9.
 
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EmSw

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it's derived from the context in which that verse is contained which starts in verse 3. paul indicates in verse 5 that he's 'speaking as a man'.

he uses the same hypothetical argumentation in romans 9.

So, this wasn't inspired by the Spirit?
 
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RDKirk

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With the exception of a minority of liberal Christians, I have never heard of any Christian placing Paul's writings outside the canon of Sacred Scriptures.

Significantly, the people who actually knew the apostles, or were no more than one generation from the apostles, fully accepted Paul's writings even when those same people did not fully accept the gospels. There was no controversy among the early Christians about Paul's legitimacy.

Folks writing hundreds or thousands of years later...meh.

Technically speaking, certainly a person can be saved no more information than is contained in any single gospel.

But the Body of Christ is not a single individual, and is not meant to be. Acts and the "memoirs of the apostles" are more directed to how the Body of Christ operates to carry out Christ's commission.
 
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ToBeLoved

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It matters when it comes to what you have to DO to avoid Gehenna after death and the Lake of Fire at final judgment. That's why understanding the hierarchy matters.

To wit: to be forgiven your sins, do you have to forgive other people their sins against you? Yes or no.
The answer to that is yes. You will be forgiven your sins by God only to the extent that you forgive others sins against you.
For unforgiven sin you will be imprisoned and suffer until the last penny is paid.

So, if you don't want to suffer, you have to forgive everybody everything.
Jesus said that.

So, do you have to do that thing that Jesus said very explicitly? Or is just believing that Jesus is the Son of God enough to be forgiven all of your sins EVEN IF you do not forgive others their sins?

How you read the hierarchy of authority in the Bible answers that question. I can guess your answer.
You are misunderstanding what I was saying. Please go back and read the post that I responded to again.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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How do you know all of his words weren't 'hypothetical illustrations'?

if you want to assert that claim and are able to substantiate it, go ahead.

FYI, some of Jesus' words were 'hypothetical illustrations'.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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But Jesus never said anything about 'my lie'.

neither did paul,

your emphasis on that phrase is a misunderstanding of the purpose for which he said it which was to present a hypothetical argument similar to a skeptic. paul was playing devils advocate in that passage in order to demonstrate that such thinking was in error and damnable.
 
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EmSw

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neither did paul,

your emphasis on that phrase is a misunderstanding of the purpose for which he said it which was to present a hypothetical argument similar to a skeptic. paul was playing devils advocate in that passage in order to demonstrate that such thinking was in error and damnable.

Devil's advocate? That is hilarious. The truth of God does not need any devil's advocate.
 
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redleghunter

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Sin cannot approach God. There would be no suffering nor temptations for the Divine. He had to take on humanity in order to suffer and be tempted. In order to overcome sin, He was tempted just as we are. To be victorious over temptations, He underwent them in the flesh, just as we do.

The cross was the last and great temptation from hell He endured. In all the things pertaining to His cross, He did not sin; He overcame and obtained victory over them.

In these victories, He defeated hell, and gave us examples to follow. Therefore, He said to take up our cross and follow Him. It is our cross by which we overcome and defeat hell, just as He did.

Do you believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ?
 
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redleghunter

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rather, it was paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, indicating that he was speaking as would a skeptic.
Polemical speech. Yes he was using a technique familiar with people raised in a Hellenistic society.
 
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redleghunter

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I believe Paul was speaking the truth when he said 'my lie'.
Of course you would:) It is the dead give away.

But he was using argumentative speech to depict a point.

Not unlike using parables for a Hebrew audience.
 
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