Can a habitually Sexually Immoral Christian who is saved go to heaven??

[GQ Chris]

Do I have to pull teeth here? I need you to be straight with me. Are you saying that a Christian after conversion, no longer commits any sin(s)??? Yes or no? I've read those verses before.

 

[GQ Chris]

I'm trying really hard to handle this right now; either the Apostle Paul lied to me, or "Honest Al" is not really "Honest". Hmmm, I will have to think and ponder this one.

 

[topcare]

raises hand! I know the answer!

 

[GQ Chris]

raises hand! I know the answer!

Hahaha, you do?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Simul iustus et peccator.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[GQ Chris]

Simul iustus et peccator.

 

[Juanmz28]

I haven't actually found anyone "defending immoral sexuality" on this thread.

Perhaps I've missed it.

Or perhaps you're a more nobler sort than the rest of us hypocrites and sinners.

-CryptoLutheran

50% of the people who participated in the poll defended immoral sexuality, so yeah is a very high number but it isn't the majority, sorry.

 

[topcare]

50% of the people who participated in the poll defended immoral sexuality, so yeah is a very high number but it isn't the majority, sorry.

No, it's not defending immorality. We have no idea who is going to go to Heaven or not, nor is that our business. Someone who slips and repents with a sincere heart God will forgive even if it is habitual.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Did Honest Al or anybody else reply to the quote below?

Adam Clarke offers one way to interpret the passage. Other ways to interpret it exist. Let's look at the passage and see how we go when we try to interpret it at face value and then decide if Adam Clarke is on the right path.

Romans 7:14-25

(14) For we know that the law is spiritual. But I am carnal, having been sold under sin.
(15) For I do things that I do not understand. For I do not do the good that I want to do. But the evil that I hate is what I do.
(16) So, when I do what I do not want to do, I am in agreement with the law, that the law is good.
(17) But I am then acting not according to the law, but according to the sin which lives within me.
(18) For I know that what is good does not live within me, that is, within my flesh. For the willingness to do good lies close to me, but the carrying out of that good, I cannot reach.
(19) For I do not do the good that I want to do. But instead, I do the evil that I do not want to do.
(20) Now if I do what I am not willing to do, it is no longer I who am doing it, but the sin which lives within me.
(21) And so, I discover the law, by wanting to do good within myself, though evil lies close beside me.
(22) For I am delighted with the law of God, according to the inner man.
(23) But I perceive another law within my body, fighting against the law of my mind, and captivating me with the law of sin which is in my body.
(24) Unhappy man that I am, who will free me from this body of death?
(25) The grace of God, by Jesus Christ our Lord! Therefore, I serve the law of God with my own mind; but with the flesh, the law of sin.​

I am carnal, having been sold under sin, a slave subject to sinful inclinations, which are only properly sins when they are consented to by our free-will. There has been a great dispute both among the ancient and later interpreters, whether St. Paul from this verse to the end of the chapter speaks of a person remaining in sin, either under the law of nature or of the written law, (which was once the opinion of St. Augustine) or whether he speaks of a person regenerated by baptism, and in the state of grace in the new law, and even of himself when he was a faithful servant of God. This is the opinion of St. Augustine in many of his later writings against the Pelagians, in support of which he also cites St. Hilary, St. Gregory of Nazianzus, and St. Ambrose. It is also the opinion of St. Jerome, (Ep. ad Eustochium de custod. Virg.) of St. Gregory the great, of the Venerable Bede. It is the more approved opinion, according to which the apostle here by sin does not understand that which is properly speaking a sin, or sinful, but only speaks of sin that is improperly such, that is of a corrupt inclination, or a rebellious nature corrupted by original sin, of a strife between the spirit and the flesh, which remains for a trial in the most virtuous persons (see again St. Paul, Galatians 5:17). One may take notice that the apostle spoke before of what he was and what he had been, but now speaks in the present time of what he is, and what he does.

 

[Honest Al]

Do I have to pull teeth here? I need you to be straight with me. Are you saying that a Christian after conversion, no longer commits any sin(s)??? Yes or no? I've read those verses before.

I am not saying that Christians no longer commit any sin.
What I am saying, and what all of Paul's other writings are saying, is that a Christian is not a slave to sin. The Paul in Romans 7 plainly tells us that he was a slave to sin.
What I would also say, and again, I believe the whole Bible teaches it, Christ came to "save His people from their sins." (not in their sins) {Matthew 1:21}

"He gave his life to free us from every kind of sin." {Titus 2:14 NLT}

God Bless

 

[GQ Chris]

I am not saying that Christians no longer commit any sin.
What I am saying, and what all of Paul's other writings are saying, is that a Christians is not a slave to sin. The Paul in Romans 7 plainly tells us that he was a slave to sin.
What I would also say, and again, I believe the whole Bible teaches it, Christ came to "save His people from their sins." (not in their sins) {Matthew 1:21}

"He gave his life to free us from every kind of sin." {Titus 2:14 NLT}

God Bless

Thank you for clarifying. Scripture is clear that we will be slaves to sin if we do not walk according to the Spirit, but that's entirely different from being sinless after conversion. Unfortunately there are people that believe the latter.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Did Honest Al or anybody else reply to the quote below?

I don't think anyone responded, but I've been thinking about it. Maybe that is what I've been trying to say at times, though not expressing it well (speaking of a Christian's struggle with sin, not this passage). The passage I didn't know quite what to make of, as I'm not too sure of what I've been told.

But I don't think there were comments, unless I missed them.

 

[Tammy]

I find disturbing the amount of people defending immoral sexuality, John 14:15 "If you love me, keep my commands", God is very clear when He says fornicators, thieves, liars, murderers, idolaters, tyrants, etc. won't enter the Kingdom of God, a fornicator who call himself "christian" is an hypocrite and a liar and he won't be saved, does anyone know the meaning of "repentance"?

Very refreshing to read your post! You are very young, but far in advance of many of the older men on this thread! I pray you will never be influenced by their false theology that a person can be living in sin and still be on his way to Heaven. What blindness!

 

[Tammy]

I haven't actually found anyone "defending immoral sexuality" on this thread.

Perhaps I've missed it.

Or perhaps you're a more nobler sort than the rest of us hypocrites and sinners.

-CryptoLutheran

You have missed it...it is everywhere! You ought to be encouraging a young man who is standing for truth & righteousness, rather than trying to bring him down to your level....

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The basis of salvation is God and his nature growing inside of me to maturity . i recall Paul making it pretty clear that it is no longer i who sin but the sin within me that sins . the premise of the question in the above poll is wrong . and appears to misunderstand the nature of salvation .

 

[Honest Al]

Did Honest Al or anybody else reply to the quote below?

Hi Coffee,
I'll try to comment on that quote you shared--the one that comes after all of those verses from Romans 7.
To me, the quote is kind of hard to understand; and whoever is writing it seems to be a bit uncertain themselves, and commenting on people who were uncertain. So...
#1--The writer, and people in the past, seem to be uncertain as to whether or not Paul is talking about commiting sin, or just being in a state of sin (?) But I believe there is no reason for uncertainty about that. The Paul in Romans 7 is definitely commiting sin: "The evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing." (vs. 19 NIV)
#2 (and that's all I'll comment on for now)--The quote starts out with the words from Romans: "I am carnal" (vs. 14) Here's how a couple of the modern translations translate that verse:

"We know that the law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual." (NIV)
"We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not spiritual." (NCV)

Now, compare what Paul writes there with what he writes to the Galatian church: "Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently." (Galatians 6:1 NIV)
I'll quote one more verse before I comment on what I just shared: "I consider myself in no way inferior to those "super-apostles." (2 Cor. 11:5 HCSB)
Surely,if there was anyone on the face of the earth that was "spiritual," it had to have been Paul--the man who wrote more of the New Testament than all the other NT writers put together. And Paul clearly writes as if expects that there are some "spiritual" people in Galatia. (Gal.6:1) Now, I can't for the life of me see how anyone could possibly believe that there were "spiritual" people on the face of the earth, but Paul wasn't one of them. Absolutely impossible!!!
This is just another piece of evidence showing that the Paul of Romans 7 cannot possibly be the Spirit filled Apostle Paul. And this another reason why Dr. Clarke says that it's an "absurd" teaching that teaches that the Paul of Romans 7 is a description of the Christian experience of the great apostle Paul.

 

[Honest Al]

Thank you for clarifying. Scripture is clear that we will be slaves to sin if we do not walk according to the Spirit, but that's entirely different from being sinless after conversion. Unfortunately there are people that believe the latter.

HI again,
I'd like to try to clarify something else: While it's true that Christians do sometimes commit sin, I do not believe that it's God's fault, God's will, or God's plan.
Surely we all agree that God is almighty. And I believe the Bible clearly teaches that that almighty power of the Almighty God is offered to us to enable to have victory over sin and the devil:

"He gave his life to free us from every kind of sin." {Titus 2:14 NLT}

"As we know Jesus better, his divine power gives us everything we need for living a godly life." {2 Peter 1:3 NLT}

P.S.--I have another verse I'd like to share:

"And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God." {Ephesians 3:19}

Wouldn't one think that a person who is "filled with all the fulness of God" could have victory over sin?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hi Coffee,
I'll try to comment on that quote you shared--the one that comes after all of those verses from Romans 7.
To me, the quote is kind of hard to understand; and whoever is writing it seems to be a bit uncertain themselves, and commenting on people who were uncertain. So...
#1--The writer, and people in the past, seem to be uncertain as to whether or not Paul is talking about commiting sin, or just being in a state of sin (?) But I believe there is no reason for uncertainty about that. The Paul in Romans 7 is definitely commiting sin: "The evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing." (vs. 19 NIV)
#2 (and that's all I'll comment on for now)--The quote starts out with the words from Romans: "I am carnal" (vs. 14) Here's how a couple of the modern translations word that verse:

"We know that the law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual." (NIV)
"We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not spiritual." (NCV)

Now, compare what Paul writes there with what he writes to the Galatian church: "Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently." (Galatians 6:1 NIV)
I'll quote one more verse before I comment on what I just shared: "I consider myself in no way inferior to those "super-apostles." (2 Cor. 11:5 HCSB)
Surely,if there was anyone on the face of the earth that was "spiritual," it had to have been Paul--the man who wrote more of the New Testament than all the other NT writers put together. And Paul clearly writes as if expects that there are some "spiritual" people in Galatia. (Gal.6:1) Now, I can't for the life of me see how anyone could possibly believe that there were "spiritual" people on the face of the earth, but Paul wasn't one of them. Absolutely impossible!!!
This is just another piece of evidence showing that the Paul of Romans 7 cannot possibly be the Spirit filled Apostle Paul. And this another reason why Dr. Clarke says that it's an "absurd" teaching that teaches that the Paul of Romans 7 is a discription of the Christian experience of the great apostle Paul.

Brother Honest Al, reading the passage at face value saint Paul is speaking of himself when he says "I am ..." is he not?

 

[abacabb3]

Who here is voting yes.

Read Hebrews 10:26. No one willingly continues in sin. Sex doesn't just happen by mistake or at the spur of the moment. It is a deliberate act, just like theft. And guess what, both share time together in the lake of fire.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Who here is voting yes.

Read Hebrews 10:26. No one willingly continues in sin. Sex doesn't just happen by mistake or at the spur of the moment. It is a deliberate act, just like theft. And guess what, both share time together in the lake of fire.

So, the question really should be "Can a person who commits a sin be admitted to heaven?".
The answer is yes. Any sinner, like the thief on the cross, who repented in his last moments of life, can be saved, and will be. The point is repentance. Also, look at the question, as presented. You have a 'habitually sexually immoral Christian' who is then 'saved' (meaning he's no longer sexually immoral). So...yes. He can be. Just so you know, Augustine of Hippo was one of those...he was a womanizer who fathered a child out of wedlock. He's famous for saying "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner, but not yet." or something to that effect. He went on to convert to Christianity, became a bishop, and ultimately a Doctor of the Church and a saint.