Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

[B Griffin]

Gotta love these verses that provide us with such a priceless promise! The issue here that's commonly misunderstood has to do with the perception of human free moral agency as it relates to the issue of the eternal security of the believer. Once a person has freely [through the utilization of their free moral agency] received the free gift of God through the instrumentality of faith ... they simply will never be snatched out of God's hand ... He will preserve them in the faith ..."they will never die" = "Once Justified, Always Justified" [OJAJ].

"My sheep recognise my voice and I know who they are. They follow me and I give them eternal life."

It's vital to realize that Jesus said that His sheep follow Him ... He didn't say that only some of His sheep follow Him or that some of His sheep will begin following Him and then later decide to depart from Him ... but plainly declared that His sheep follow Him = His sheep will follow Him [due to the fact that they have been made new creatures in Christ - 2 Corinthians 5:17].

"but you do not believe because you are not my sheep."

Therefore, it only logically and scripturally follows that those who have never placed their trust exclusively on Christ's atoning work on the cross, rather than anything they can bring to the table for their justified standing before God ... were never Christ's sheep, and for that reason they have never believed unto justification, nor can continue believing unto the day of the redemption of their bodies [at glorification].

Great points. I am beginning to wonder if a person is really saved if he does not place all his hope in Christ. Can anyone put forth arguments that they are really saved?

Concerning Herschel Hobbs statement, "He believed that God affirmed every free human choice in such a way that the choices are not predetermined." :

Well, I can't presently find any of his writings where he expounds his personal detailed understanding on the issue of God's providence and predestination, but I believe the following statement best summarizes my Molinist view in a nutshell :

"Concerning God's selection of the particular world that He chose to actualize :

It is up to God whether I find myself in a world in which I am predestined ; but it is up to me whether I am predestined [to salvation] in the world in which I find myself.......

Acts 13:48,"Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

God chooses which feasible world to actualize ; in every feasible world God gives sufficient grace to every person for salvation."

This is the first time i've ever heard about Molinism. I read a little about it on GotQuestions.org. I would just say that a more straightforward view of predestination is that the destiny of all saved people is pre-determined, but a person's decision to place their trust in Christ is not pre-determined (though it is foreknown by God). It is not likely that this issue will be settled in this forum.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Great points. I am beginning to wonder if a person is really saved if he does not place all his hope in Christ. Can anyone put forth arguments that they are really saved?

This is the first time i've ever heard about Molinism. I read a little about it on GotQuestions.org. I would just say that a more straightforward view of predestination is that the destiny of all saved people is pre-determined, but a person's decision to place their trust in Christ is not pre-determined (though it is foreknown by God). It is not likely that this issue will be settled in this forum.

You said, "This is the first time i've ever heard about Molinism. I read a little about it on GotQuestions.org. I would just say that a more straightforward view of predestination is that the destiny of all saved people is pre-determined, but a person's decision to place their trust in Christ is not pre-determined (though it is foreknown by God). It is not likely that this issue will be settled in this forum.

Well, the issue of God's providence and predestination is a deep dive indeed .. but should we expect anything less? The perspective that you expressed is basically the "simple foreknowledge" view held by most in the Arminian camp. Molinists contend that although this view is not unscriptural, it's a very incomplete view that does not allow a person to answer other critical questions concerning the eternal security of the believer ... and most specifically those questions that relate to the warning passages.

Luis de Molina basically fit into the OSAS, Molinist Arminian camp [such as myself]. There are others who identify themselves as OSAS, Molinist Calvinists, who, I do not believe, can possibly be theological consistent within their own model, since the basic framework of Molina's Molinism is in opposition to that of the Calvinist doctrine of irresitible grace [at least John' Calvin's perspective of it].

As for the Arminian "Simple Foreknowledge", and the Molinist's claim of it incompleteness [as well as it's effect of somewhat limiting the extent of God's sovereingty or participation in the affairs of mankind] see the following :
[1] PDF - Arminianism and Molinism on Divine Foreknowledge - Liberty University
< https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1703&context=honors >

[2] listen @30:32 - 34:00 mins. <

>
the above video is the best presentation of the Molinist model I've ever seen!

William Lane Craig explains how the Arminian perspective of "Simple Foreknowledge" does not account or allow for any sense of genuine Divine Providential control over the events that occur throughout the history of the world He chose to actualize.

"Proponents of Simple Foreknowledge of the future, without Molinism's "Middle Knowledge", can make no good sense of God's Providential planning of a wprld of free creatures. For logically prior to the Divine Decree, God has only Natural Knowledge of the possible scenarios and no knowledge whatsover of what would happen under any circumctances.

Thus logically posterior to the Divine Decree, God must consider Himself extraordinarily "lucky" to find that this world happened to exist. "What a break", we can imagine God saying to Himself ... Herod, and Pilate, and all those people, all reacted just perfectly. Actually, the situation is much worse than that, for God had no idea whether Herod, or Pilate, or the Israelite Nation, or the Roman Empire would even exist posterior to the Divine Decree.

Indeed God must be astonished to find Himself existing in a world out of all the possible worlds that He could have created, in which mankind falls into sin and God Himself enters human history as a substitutional sacrificial offering to rescue them. Now of course I'm speaking anthropomorphically here, but the point remains, without Middle knowledge God cannot know prior to the Creative Decree what the world would be like.

If the defender of Simple Foreknowledge goes on to say that God's foreordination of future events is based upon His Simple Foreknowledge, then this trivializes the doctrine of foreordination, making it a "fifth wheel" which carries no weight ... since the future, by definition, cannot be changedOnce God knows that an event really is future, there's nothing more left for foreordination to do ... foreordination becomes a redundancy. And surely there's more substance to the Biblical doctrine of foreordination then the triviality that God decrees that "what will happen will happen ..."


You also stated, "Great points. I am beginning to wonder if a person is really saved if he does not place all his hope in Christ. Can anyone put forth arguments that they are really saved?"

Well, the scriptures couldn't be any clearer that a person simply cannot be forgiven and declared "not guilty"] in God's eyes unless they give up all hope that their righteous acts [works, deeds] will qualify them for the reception of God's free gift of eternal life.

"Can anyone put forth arguments that they are really saved?"

Well, they can put up all the arguments they desire ... but the bottom line is that they are either "saved" or "not saved" ... there simply is no third option available. A person cannot prove to another person that they have been/are saved ... the assurance that they have become/are a redeemed individual [i.e. - Romans 8:16] can only be perceived and known as a certainty/reality by that individual and God Himself.

 

[B Griffin]

You said, "This is the first time i've ever heard about Molinism. I read a little about it on GotQuestions.org. I would just say that a more straightforward view of predestination is that the destiny of all saved people is pre-determined, but a person's decision to place their trust in Christ is not pre-determined (though it is foreknown by God). It is not likely that this issue will be settled in this forum.

Well, the issue of God's providence and predestination is a deep dive indeed .. but should we expect anything less? The perspective that you expressed is basically the "simple foreknowledge" view held by most in the Arminian camp. Molinists contend that although this view is not unscriptural, it's a very incomplete view that does not allow a person to answer other critical questions concerning the eternal security of the believer ... and most specifically those questions that relate to the warning passages.

I hesitated to bring foreknowledge into the conversation for this very reason. But let me try this:

We know two things. First, God decides who to save and who not to save. Second, God has always had full knowledge of who He would save and who He would not save.

Add to that two more things. First, God does not want anyone to perish. Second, it pleased God to save those who believe.

Add to that two more things. First, God gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Second, whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Calvinists say God elects beforehand who will believe and who will not believe unto salvation. Armenians say God knows in advance who will believe unto salvation and elects them. Apparently, Molinists believe God forsees every permutation and combination of possible human decisions and creates the one future which generates the particular set of elect ones that satisfies His will.

I do not believe God pre-determines the salvation of any person, though He knows about it before it happens. What he pre-determines ahead of time is that everyone who puts their trust in Christ will be saved, will never perish, and will be with God forever after their physical death.

 

[Rapture Bound]

I hesitated to bring foreknowledge into the conversation for this very reason. But let me try this:

We know two things. First, God decides who to save and who not to save. Second, God has always had full knowledge of who He would save and who He would not save.

Add to that two more things. First, God does not want anyone to perish. Second, it pleased God to save those who believe.

Add to that two more things. First, God gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Second, whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Calvinists say God elects beforehand who will believe and who will not believe unto salvation. Armenians say God knows in advance who will believe unto salvation and elects them. Apparently, Molinists believe God forsees every permutation and combination of possible human decisions and creates the one future which generates the particular set of elect ones that satisfies His will.

I do not believe God pre-determines the salvation of any person, though He knows about it before it happens. What he pre-determines ahead of time is that everyone who puts their trust in Christ will be saved, will never perish, and will be with God forever after their physical death.

You stated "I do not believe God pre-determines the salvation of any person, though He knows about it before it happens."

The consistent Molinist should/would agree with your assertion, but, at the same time, would point out that you have basically described the Arminian "Simple Foreknowledge " perspective. An in-depth explanation of precisely how the Molinist view differs from it was provided in the links from my previous post.

 

[Rapture Bound]

You stated "I do not believe God pre-determines the salvation of any person, though He knows about it before it happens."

The consistent Molinist should/would agree with your assertion, but, at the same time, would point out that you have basically described the Arminian "Simple Foreknowledge " perspective. An in-depth explanation of precisely how the Molinist view differs from it was provided in the links from my previous post.

Not really sure if you are saying that you hold to the Arminian "Simple Foreknowledge" model and reject the Molinist model. In my opinion, the Arminian framework is superior to that of the consistent 5-point Calvinist ... but yet inferior to that of the consistent Molinist. Open Theism is another model that the Molinist rejects [and asserts that a mild form of open theism necessarily exists in the Arminian "Simple Foreknowledge" paradigm].

 

[B Griffin]

You stated "I do not believe God pre-determines the salvation of any person, though He knows about it before it happens."

The consistent Molinist should/would agree with your assertion, but, at the same time, would point out that you have basically described the Arminian "Simple Foreknowledge " perspective. An in-depth explanation of precisely how the Molinist view differs from it was provided in the links from my previous post.

I'm not an expert in all these views. Maybe I would be in the "simple foreknowledge" camp if I better understood how the word "simple" modifies "foreknowledge". Reading between the lines, I presumed that "simple foreknowledge" meant that God simply predestines all the people to be saved that His foreknowledge informs Him will believe in Jesus. That is why I reject the idea of simple foreknowledge. My point of view is that the destiny of all who will eventually believe is determined beforehand, but their willful decision to believe or not believe is not pre-determined (neither by the choice of God to act on them individually nor on the choice of God to pre-determine the course of history). In my opinion, God's ability to see all things in advance is not pertinent to a person's decision on whether or not to put his trust in Christ. If that aligns with "simple foreknowledge", then ok, I'm in.

 

[Rapture Bound]

I'm not an expert in all these views. Maybe I would be in the "simple foreknowledge" camp if I better understood how the word "simple" modifies "foreknowledge". Reading between the lines, I presumed that "simple foreknowledge" meant that God simply predestines all the people to be saved that His foreknowledge informs Him will believe in Jesus. That is why I reject the idea of simple foreknowledge. My point of view is that the destiny of all who will eventually believe is determined beforehand, but their willful decision to believe or not believe is not pre-determined (neither by the choice of God to act on them individually nor on the choice of God to pre-determine the course of history). In my opinion, God's ability to see all things in advance is not pertinent to a person's decision on whether or not to put his trust in Christ. If that aligns with "simple foreknowledge", then ok, I'm in.

It appears to me that you have not yet quite grasped the fundamental or key distinction between Arminian "Simple Foreknowledge" and Molinist Foreknowledge. The Molinist prototype is built upon the assertion that God possesses "Middle Knowledge" - which entails counter-factual conditionals ... a concept/principle which is rejected by the consistent proponents of the Arminian "Simple Foreknowledge" model concerning God's omniscience].

Counterfactual conditionals [also subjunctive or X-marked] are conditional sentences which discuss ***what would have been true under different circumstances***, e.g. "If Peter believed in ghosts, he would be afraid to be here." Counterfactuals are contrasted with indicatives, which are generally restricted to discussing open possibilities.

With that said, in my opinion, the consistent Molinist should not disagree with anything you've stated ... and, although you [and I both for that matter] may not be an expert on the topic ... you've made some excellent points here that are vital to gaining a scriptural perspective concerning God's election to salvation!

 

[Rapture Bound]

It appears to me that you have not yet quite grasped the fundamental or key distinction between Arminian "Simple Foreknowledge" and Molinist Foreknowledge. The Molinist prototype is built upon the assertion that God possesses "Middle Knowledge" - which entails counter-factual conditionals ... a concept/principle which is rejected by the consistent proponents of the Arminian "Simple Foreknowledge" model concerning God's omniscience].

Counterfactual conditionals [also subjunctive or X-marked] are conditional sentences which discuss ***what would have been true under different circumstances***, e.g. "If Peter believed in ghosts, he would be afraid to be here." Counterfactuals are contrasted with indicatives, which are generally restricted to discussing open possibilities.

With that said, in my opinion, the consistent Molinist should not disagree with anything you've stated ... and, although you [and I both for that matter] may not be an expert on the topic ... you've made some excellent points here that are vital to gaining a scriptural perspective concerning God's election to salvation!

I think what could potentially be misleading on Molinism language pertains to the idea of a possible world ... that is ... it sounds 'flat' to people ... it sounds like a fully defined end state. Whereas, if we use the language of logically possible timelines rather than 'worlds', people could more readily perceive that there is still a sequence of events within each one of them ... and we need to envision a logical sequencing of the order of those events. When considering God's selection of the actual world, there is never a point in time in which God didn't know all the possibilities of what could of happened [counterfactual truths]] in any given feasible world/timeline of history.

 

[FredVB]

God knows alternate possibilities, but there is no reality to those. God made things the way God did, with choices from us God's creatures that God meant for us to be capable of, with possibility for people to be in God's image, not that they just are, but with choices they make being godly then, and this includes good stewardship in this world. There is clearly failure in the needed godliness. God also provided the way for restoration.

Salvation is actually real with repentant faith, coming to Christ through whom there is atonement for restoration to God, with the way shown for us. Without the faith for that with repentance, that there would be change in life, what there is to show for it is not real. The promises in scriptures about it that address how believers are sealed, and have everlasting life, pertain to those in whom it is real.

 

[FredVB]

The image of God is falsely understood to be already possessed, by all humans. This what we are called to corresponding to. It is directly connected with our role in this world which was stated, the role we, in general, are failing. Responsible living with godliness we will have with fruits of the Spirit will show the image of God that was meant to show, from us.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Neither death nor *life* will separate God's children from His love!!

Romans 8:38-39, "For I am persuaded, that neither death, *nor life*, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

When considering the context of Romans chapter 8, what else could *life* possibly encompass, and refer to, other than any and all circumstances that may cause a person [God's elect - v.33] to be severed in their relationship with God? ... answer = absolutely nothing! Here, but certainly not limited to here, we find the very definition of "the eternal security of the believer."

Romans 8:38 --- *life* = zoe in the Greek - it refers to both physical and spiritual life! < Romans 8:38 Interlinear: for I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor messengers, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present,

Strong's Greek: 2222. ζωή (zóé) -- life

2222. zóé
Strong's Concordance
zóé: life
Original Word: ζωή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: zóé
Phonetic Spelling: (dzo-ay')
Definition: life
Usage: life, both of physical (present) and of spiritual (particularly future) existence.

HELPS Word-studies
2222 zōḗ – life (physical and spiritual). All life (2222 /zōḗ), throughout the universe, is derived – i.e. it always (only) comes from and is sustained by God's self-existent life. The Lord intimately shares His gift of life with people, creating each in His image which gives all the capacity to know His eternal life.

Have you grasped the reality of this my friends? Has this precious gem, this glorious scriptural truth, resonated deep within your souls yet? That is, have you truly and actually received and believed it as scriptural truth? ... or does Paul's statement yet seem "too good to be true" in your mind? ... that surely wasn't the case with the Apostle Paul - who indeed was persuaded of it's reality [and not merely it's possibility].

My brothers and sisters, can you see how the enemy of our souls doesn't want us to ponder upon, digest, and rejoice in God's unspeakably wonderous promise of reassurance? ... that blessed assurance of our salvation which Paul possessed ... an assurance that should be in the possession of every genuine child of God as well!

Romans 8:16, "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"

1 Thessalonians 1:4, "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God."

1 John 4:13, "Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit."

2 Corinthians 1:21-22, "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Galatians 4:6, "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."

1 John 5:11-13, "11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

 

[Rapture Bound]

What is forgotten ?
God's Love is not necessarily limited to His children, is it ?
Even those multitudes (the "many") are loved who remain lost.
Except for those whose heart are full of perversion - God Hates.

Are you a universalist? the implication that you are making here is one of a universalist-- which, in a nutshell, asserts that in the end, every person ever born into this world will ultimately spend eternity in Heaven. This promise is clearly limited to only those who have fully placed their trust on the name of the Son of God, and most specifically on His atoning work on their behalf.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Why "tragically"? It is a mystery. It is a surprise in fact, and uncommon, rare, when anyone gets "saved".

It's tragic, in my opinion, because it's a very critical topic ... one which the scriptures provide us with the answer.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Weird tangent or footnot perhaps, but I think most religions of the world agree or think or believe that God does not manipulate anyone into being saved.
I think likewise, with the Bible, that in Jesus, in His Name, is the only way ever for anyone to be saved.

Agreed - God will never manipulate anyone into being saved.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Weird tangent or footnot perhaps, but I think most religions of the world agree or think or believe that God does not manipulate anyone into being saved.
I think likewise, with the Bible, that in Jesus, in His Name, is the only way ever for anyone to be saved.

Not sure why you say this. I'm not arguing your point, just wondering why you said it. Is that to counter something someone says, or what?

 

[RocK Guy]

Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

What did the early church fathers have to say about “eternal security” or “assurance of salvation”

Justin Martyr 100-165
Shepherd of Hermas 155-180
Irenaeus 120-200
Tertullian 150-220
Origen 185-254
Cyprian 200-258
Augustine 354-430

These men wrote from about A.D. 100 – 250. We do not find any statements to the effect that once a Christian is saved, he or she is always saved. But we do find a consistent belief, except for a few instances, that faith and works go together. This is consistent with the teachings of the Bible.

The earliest statement regarding “once saved always saved” comes from Augustine (A.D. 354-430), so this is where the false doctrine of OSAS got started.

-------------------------

Top reasons why OSAS is not true

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

James 5:19,20
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Romans 2:7-11
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(NOT in our own strength - see Philippians 4:13)

1 Peter 1:14-17
As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Matthew 7:16-21
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 8:35
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

Those led by the Spirit are the sons of God (Romans 8:14)

 

[RocK Guy]

The question is this: are you really born again ?

The question is - why would some ignore the whole counsel of God?

 

[Mark Quayle]

What did the early church fathers have to say about “eternal security” or “assurance of salvation”

Justin Martyr 100-165
Shepherd of Hermas 155-180
Irenaeus 120-200
Tertullian 150-220
Origen 185-254
Cyprian 200-258
Augustine 354-430

These men wrote from about A.D. 100 – 250. We do not find any statements to the effect that once a Christian is saved, he or she is always saved. But we do find a consistent belief, except for a few instances, that faith and works go together. This is consistent with the teachings of the Bible.

The earliest statement regarding “once saved always saved” comes from Augustine (A.D. 354-430), so this is where the false doctrine of OSAS got started.

-------------------------

Top reasons why OSAS is not true

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

James 5:19,20
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Romans 2:7-11
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(NOT in our own strength - see Philippians 4:13)

1 Peter 1:14-17
As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Matthew 7:16-21
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 8:35
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

Those led by the Spirit are the sons of God (Romans 8:14)

Do you believe that those whom God has chosen, he will not fail to bring home to live with him forever? Do you believe that what God has begun he will complete?

OSAS is a bit sassy, but in God's purposes is where eternal security is found. For me, I find peace and rest in his mercy. And so I'm driven on to good works. I see no reason, so far, to believe that any is eternally saved, that God will lose.

 

[Dave G.]

The question is - why would some ignore the whole counsel of God? View attachment 345553

Lamentations 3:22-23
​

English Standard Version

22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases;[a]
his mercies never come to an end;
23 they are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
​

1 John 1:8-10
​

New International Version
​

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
​

John 3
​

English Standard Version
​

You Must Be Born Again​

3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus[a] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[b] he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

2 Corinthians 13:5 ESV​

​

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

 

[Rapture Bound]

What did the early church fathers have to say about “eternal security” or “assurance of salvation”

Justin Martyr 100-165
Shepherd of Hermas 155-180
Irenaeus 120-200
Tertullian 150-220
Origen 185-254
Cyprian 200-258
Augustine 354-430

These men wrote from about A.D. 100 – 250. We do not find any statements to the effect that once a Christian is saved, he or she is always saved. But we do find a consistent belief, except for a few instances, that faith and works go together. This is consistent with the teachings of the Bible.

The earliest statement regarding “once saved always saved” comes from Augustine (A.D. 354-430), so this is where the false doctrine of OSAS got started.

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Top reasons why OSAS is not true

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

James 5:19,20
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Romans 2:7-11
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(NOT in our own strength - see Philippians 4:13)

1 Peter 1:14-17
As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Matthew 7:16-21
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 8:35
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

Those led by the Spirit are the sons of God (Romans 8:14)

You stated, "What did the early church fathers have to say about “eternal security” or “assurance of salvation”

Any opinion that an early "church father" held must be weighed in the scales against what the inspired writers of scriptures wrote on the matter. Many of those who identify as non-Roman Catholics frequently point out the absurdity of the claim that the R.C. Pope speaks infallibly at times ["Ex-cathedra"], or, at the very least, heavily implies that the opinion of the "high court" of their Council of Trent possesses some type of infallibility on a given topic.

Therefore, my question to them would be, "why not be consistent and apply the same philosophy across the board to the early church fathers?" .... do you assume that they, as opposed to the Pope and his high Council, speak infallibly on any given topic, and are so to speak, the "final word" as pertaining to scriptural truths?

Some might say that I'm just trying to avoid the issue since they believe that more of those "fathers" held to their position. Well, in one sense they are correct, I choose not to go down that rabbit hole for my aforementioned primary reason. The way I see it, any appeal to man, that is, the appeal to the "majority vote" on any given topic does not necessarily make it true... it certainly doesn't provide infallible evidence. It's very plausible that God has designed it in such a manner that each one of us must diligently pursue and discover the truth for ourselves, and will ultimately give an account as to the genuineness of that pursuance.