Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

[Rapture Bound]

The question is - why would some ignore the whole counsel of God? View attachment 345553

The way I see it, it's not so much a matter of ignoring the whole counsel of God on the topic ... they simply disagree with your interpretation of how all the scriptures that pertain to it can best be harmonized ... it's much more a matter of their perception of it ... they perceive it through a different lens.

 

[RocK Guy]

Do you believe that those whom God has chosen, he will not fail to bring home to live with him forever? Do you believe that what God has begun he will complete?

God created man in His Own Image and because of that man has free will and is capable of rejecting the Lord. When one does this they are lost, unless they repent and get back in right standing with the Lord. (this is why the Lord put WARNINGS in His Word about sin ya know)

God is not mocked, those that sow to the flesh (sin) reap corruption (unrighteousness)
What Jesus did at the cross does not remove sowing and reaping, nor does it remove man's free will.

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

God gave man free will... if man chooses to turn and walk away from the Lord, God will let them do so.

Romans 1:28
they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do what ought not to be done

The gifts and callings of God are without repentance which means God cannot violate our free will and save us anyway IF we choose to go back to our sin which is living in darkness. In God there is NO darkness. (1 John 1:5)

This is a major biblical truth the OSAS crowd always explains away or denies is simply this... God is NOT mocked, what we sow is what we reap - if we sow to the flesh we shall of the flesh reap corruption. (Gal 6:7,8)

In Gal 6:8, the word corruption is...

G5356
fthora from G5351; decay, i.e. ruin -- corruption, destroy, perish.

G5351
strengthened from phthio (to pine or waste); properly, to shrivel or wither, i.e. to spoil or to ruin, by moral influences, to deprave): -- corrupt (self), defile, destroy.

If one claims we DO reap corruption when we sin, then they are admitting they do not believe OSAS / Eternal security doctrine (and sadly many of their friends will forsake them!).... and if one claims we DO NOT reap what we sow, then according to Gal 6:7, that would be mocking God!

Adam and Eve were given eternal life by the Lord when He created them... but when they sinned against God they became corrupt and died spiritually and became separated from God. So Gal 6:7,8 is quite the quandary, quite the state of uncertainty and perplexity for the adherents of OSAS doctrine.

 

[RocK Guy]

Therefore, my question to them would be, "why not be consistent and apply the same philosophy across the board to the early church fathers?" .... do you assume that they, as opposed to the Pope and his high Council, speak infallibly on any given topic, and are so to speak, the "final word" as pertaining to scriptural truths?

The point of posting that is NOBODY ever taught osas until Augustine came along, including the biblical writers who certainly were inspired

Here's one the osas crowd cannot explain away:

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Here, the Lord is teaching thru Peter that one can most certainly fall away and become WORSE off than they were before they got born again.

It's always good to look at the whole counsel of God on these topics because when we do that we learn that osas is false doctrine that cannot be substantiated by scripture unless one hold to a few happy verses and throws the rest of God's Word out which of course is what the osas crowd does.

At any rate, enjoy discussing amongst yourself as I'm not going to waste time getting in to an argument over osas being false doctrine as shown in God's warnings found all over His Word.

 

[Rapture Bound]

The point of posting that is NOBODY ever taught osas until Augustine came along, including the biblical writers who certainly were inspired

Here's one the osas crowd cannot explain away:

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Here, the Lord is teaching thru Peter that one can most certainly fall away and become WORSE off than they were before they got born again.

It's always good to look at the whole counsel of God on these topics because when we do that we learn that osas is false doctrine that cannot be substantiated by scripture unless one hold to a few happy verses and throws the rest of God's Word out which of course is what the osas crowd does.

At any rate, enjoy discussing amongst yourself as I'm not going to waste time getting in to an argument over osas being false doctrine as shown in God's warnings found all over His Word.

Well, if you choose not to defend your position, you're certainly free to do so my friend. Perhaps others here that read this thread would be interested see how I would address your claim/perspective ... so then ... I proceed ....

You said, "Here's one the osas crowd cannot explain away:

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

In other words, you believe that this text supports the assertion that there will be some genuine, blood-bought Holy Spirit regenerated believers who will subsequently forfeit/lose their salvation, and consequently perish eternally in the Lake of Fire. At least that's what I'm perceiving your viewpoint to be from your posts ... feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. In either case, I'll respond to the viewpoint that the text supports that position.

Could you show me where in that passage it states that any genuine believer will actually be "overcome"? Here I believe that genuine believers are being addressed, and "overcome" refers to spiritual death ... I simply don't see where in the passage it is stated that any single believer will experience total apostasy [i.e -loss of their eternal life]. The operative word here is "if" - which obviously involves a hypothetical scenario. Here I hold to the Molinist position concerning the hypothetical aspect presented in the passage.

Molinism is not inherently a soteriological system, but elements of it can be applied to soteriology.

A person is a "mere Molinist" if they affirm :

(a) God is in control of everything

(b) man is genuinely free [although limitations exist].

(c) God uses middle knowledge to accomplish His purposes.

God's knowledge can be divided into 3 logical moments :

(a) Natural - His knowledge of everything that [could] happen in any given circumstance.

(b) Middle - His knowledge of everything that [would] happen in any given circumstance.

(c) Free - His knowledge of everything that actually [will] happen in any given circumstance. Free knowledge is synonymous with foreknowledge.

The most common objection to a Molinist's perspective on warning passages such as 2 Peter 2:20-22 runs like this :

"The problem with fearing warnings that are not real, is that they end up being meaningless as far as consequences go. As I look through history as God has written it - which the author of Hebrews does - God's warnings are real and He is to be accordingly feared."

In response I would say :

The Molinist does not claim that the warnings [along with the consequences] aren't real.
For example, let's take the warning label on lawnmowers. Manufacturers are lawfully required to mark an easily seen warning that says something along these lines, "DANGER!! ... KEEP HANDS AND FEET AWAY TO AVOID SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH"

A Molinist can assert :

(1) What is the purpose of the warning? ... to prevent serious injury or death.

(2) Is it logical or coherent to assert that any person will or must actually place their hands or feet under the lawnmower in order to make the warning real? ... I don't believe so.

(3) Whether or not a person [including genuine believers] complies with the warning does not do away with the actual consequences that would accompany failure.

(4) Whether or not, and which persons, will actually fail to heed the warning(s) and suffer the real consequences is an entirely distinct question.

(5) The purpose of warning passages such as 2 Peter 2:20 --- The warning passages [scattered throughout the scriptures] are just one of the many means that God utilizes in order to preserve His children safely into their Heavenly inheritance. God utilizes both positive means [blessings] as well as negative [chastenings] in order to fulfill His promises.

Must believers persevere by faith, in the faith? ... or does God preserve the believer's faith? ... it's not an "either/or" scenario, but rather "both/and" :

(1) We [believers] must persevere by faith, in the faith to enter Heaven (2 Tim. 2:12; Heb.3:14;10:26). Not to persevere is to perish.

(2) God will preserve us [believers] in our faith even though at times we may doubt and wander from the path of righteousness. But He will always remain true to his promise by ensuring that none of His children will fall so far as to finally and forever fail. God will preserve us, we will in fact persevere, we will endure in faith.

Jude 1:1-2,”Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ."

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24,” Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who will also do it."

 

[Mark Quayle]

God created man in His Own Image and because of that man has free will and is capable of rejecting the Lord. When one does this they are lost, unless they repent and get back in right standing with the Lord. (this is why the Lord put WARNINGS in His Word about sin ya know)

God is not mocked, those that sow to the flesh (sin) reap corruption (unrighteousness)
What Jesus did at the cross does not remove sowing and reaping, nor does it remove man's free will.

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

God gave man free will... if man chooses to turn and walk away from the Lord, God will let them do so.

Romans 1:28
they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do what ought not to be done

The gifts and callings of God are without repentance which means God cannot violate our free will and save us anyway IF we choose to go back to our sin which is living in darkness. In God there is NO darkness. (1 John 1:5)

This is a major biblical truth the OSAS crowd always explains away or denies is simply this... God is NOT mocked, what we sow is what we reap - if we sow to the flesh we shall of the flesh reap corruption. (Gal 6:7,8)

In Gal 6:8, the word corruption is...

G5356
fthora from G5351; decay, i.e. ruin -- corruption, destroy, perish.

G5351
strengthened from phthio (to pine or waste); properly, to shrivel or wither, i.e. to spoil or to ruin, by moral influences, to deprave): -- corrupt (self), defile, destroy.

If one claims we DO reap corruption when we sin, then they are admitting they do not believe OSAS / Eternal security doctrine (and sadly many of their friends will forsake them!).... and if one claims we DO NOT reap what we sow, then according to Gal 6:7, that would be mocking God!

Adam and Eve were given eternal life by the Lord when He created them... but when they sinned against God they became corrupt and died spiritually and became separated from God. So Gal 6:7,8 is quite the quandary, quite the state of uncertainty and perplexity for the adherents of OSAS doctrine.

Noted you have not answered the question.

 

[RocK Guy]

Well, if you choose not to defend your position

It's not my position to defend, it';s the Lord's and I've already posted scripture references that show osas is a fake gospel message that leads people astray.

In other words, you believe that this text supports the assertion that there will be some genuine, blood-bought Holy Spirit regenerated believers who will subsequently forfeit/lose their salvation, and consequently perish eternally in the Lake of Fire.

No, the Lord does as this scripture specifically teaches us that one can be delivered from the things of this world (born again) and turn away from the Lord and end up worse off than they were before they got saved.

The osas camp must attempt to explain this away or somehow ignore this in order to hold their position. There are warnings all across God's Word that demonstrate one can fall away and end up separated from the Lord for all eternity so your argument is with the Word of the Lord.

The problem with fearing warnings that are not real

The problem with claiming the warnings the Lord gives in His Word are not real is that it's a trick of the devil to be in opposition to what the Lord says by claiming the Lord's Word has lies in it.

Once someone buys in to listening to the lies of the devil, deception immediately encroaches upon their understanding and they quickly become blind to the Truthfulness of what the Lord says in His Word as well as generating strife between themselves and the Lord by considering what God says to be a lie.

That's what happened to Adam and Eve in the garden. God gave them His Word, the devil came along and said God's Word was not true and when they believed the devil's word over God's Word they became separated from God spiritually (they died) and they caused themselves to be in strife and in opposition to the Lord because they agreed with the lies of the devil.

If one does not confess and repent of their sin, they will not ever be back in right standing with the Lord as they have sown to the flesh and have of the flesh reaped corruption. God is not mocked, what we sow is what we reap!

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Noted you have not answered the question.

Faulty questions don't need answers since they originate out of darkness not coming from the mind of Christ.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, the Lord does as this scripture specifically teaches us that one can be delivered from the things of this world (born again) and turn away from the Lord and end up worse off than they were before they got saved.

The osas camp must attempt to explain this away or somehow ignore this in order to hold their position. There are warnings all across God's Word that demonstrate one can fall away and end up separated from the Lord for all eternity so your argument is with the Word of the Lord.

Do the warnings imply that one can be of the elect members of the Body of Christ, and be lost for eternity? Or do we only infer that from the fact that if one is saved, one must heed the warnings or be among the lost? The point of my eternal security, I don't call OSAS, (though it agrees), but it is founded on the sure fact of God's decree and election, that what he has begun he will complete.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Faulty questions don't need answers since they originate out of darkness not coming from the mind of Christ.

Is this not a violation of the rules of the forum and the site? Should I answer in kind?

 

[BNR32FAN]

"Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?" Right here is where the unique contribution of Molinism is perhaps best demonstrated and utilized - via the Molinist model of perseverance.

Many Bible students have been frustrated to the point of giving up on their pursuit of arriving at a intellectually satisfying and scriptural based answer. Tragically, they have come to the point where they simply write it off as "mystery".

On one side of the debate a litany of scriptures are recited as evidence that a genuinely regenerated believer can forfeit their salvation, while the other side says they cannot.

The great distinction that those who hold to the Molinist model of perseverance (like myself) is seen in the fact that they do not deny that there are certain verses or portions of scripture (warning passages) that do in fact say that a regenerate believer can forfeit their salvation (such as 2 Peter 2:20).

This perspective clearly differs from the widely accepted position amongst those who believe a genuine believer will not ever lose that salvation that was gifted them at the point of their new birth. This camp claims that all of those warning passages are directed to those who are merely professing, but not possessing believers.

Tragically, many have either not been exposed to the principles of Molinism, or reject them because they have not studied them sufficiently ; and as in most things, the tendency is to reject the minority viewpoint. But keep in mind that the eternal security of the believer is a subject that contains many components to it that are very complex and therefore need to be addressed on both a scriptural and philosophical plane (which Molinism provides). 2 Peter 3:16 tells us," as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."

The following excerpts come from an article entitled, "Eternal Security? a Molinist Perspective (part 4)" - by hampton45

The Molinist view would make three basic claims.

(1) The two sets of texts are actually in two different logical categories, and therefore are not contradictory.
(2) God has actualized a possible world where all true born-again believers will freely persevere to the end, though it is possible for them to choose otherwise.
(3) God uses the warning passages, as just one of many means to keep true born-again believers from falling away.

First, we must recognize that the two sets of texts are not contradictory because they occupy two separate logical categories. One set is modal (what can happen, referring to possibilities), while the other set is what philosophers call de facto (what will happen, referring to actualities). Just because something is possible, does not mean that it will be actualized. Just because something can happen, doesn’t mean that it will happen. Here’s an illustration. It is possible that I wreck my car tomorrow, but that does not mean that I will wreck my car tomorrow. Similarly, it is possible for me to choose to stop writing right now, since it is past my bedtime, but that does not mean that I will stop writing. I am having too much fun. We would indeed have a contradiction if we affirmed that one stream of texts says that a believer can lose their salvation, and the other stream of texts says that a believer cannot lose their salvation. But that is not what the Molinist affirms. Rather, the Molinist says that one stream of texts teaches that a believer can lose their salvation, and the other stream of texts teaches that a believer will not lose their salvation. This is why Eric Minton calls this Molinist model of perseverance the “Can/Won’t” model.

Therefore, we must keep the two questions distinct in our mind.

(1) Can a true believer fall away?
(2) Will a true believer fall away?

We can take these questions to the biblical text and see if they are answered differently. I contend that they are. The warning passages cited by the advocate of conditional security make it clear that a true believer can in principle forfeit his salvation. However, the promise passages cited by the advocate of unconditional security make it clear that a true believer will in fact never forfeit his salvation. The warning passages either explicitly use the language “if” or imply it, noting only possibilities. The promise passages either explicitly use the language “will” or imply it, noting actualities. See the table below for some examples.

(1) Modal Statements on Eternal Security (what can happen/possibilities) = (A)
(2) De Facto Statements about Eternal Security (what will happen/actualities) = (B)

(A) if indeed you remain grounded and steadfast in the faith and are not shifted away from the hope of the gospel that you heard. (Col 1:23)
(B) I give them eternal life, and they will never never perish. (John 10:28)

(A) if we hold firmly until the end the reality that we had at the start. (Heb.3:14)
(B) I am sure of this, that he who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Jesus Christ. (Phil 1:6)

(A) For if having escaped the world's impurity through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in these things and defeated, the last state is worse for them than the first. (2 Pet 2:20)
(B) ...as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:7b - 8)

(A) ...if you remain in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off (Rom 11:22)
(b) The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory forever and ever. Amen. (2 Tim 4:18)

Having distinguished these logical categories, one can better understand the second claim of the Molinist- namely that God has actualized a possible world where all true believers can freely reject Christ but will not. Those terms may be new to some. I am assuming in this article that one has a good grasp of Molinism. But I will give a very brief overview here.

God’s omniscience consists of three types of knowledge. He has natural knowledge- he knows everything that could happen. That is to say he knows everything that is logically possible. God also has foreknowledge- he knows everything that will happen in the future. But God also possesses a third type of knowledge that logically proceeds his natural knowledge and precedes his foreknowledge. Because it lies between these two types, it has been named middle knowledge. It is with this type of knowledge that God knows everything that would happen in any given set of circumstances. In a more philosophically rigorous sense, through middle knowledge God knows the truth value of all counterfactual propositions. So, for example, God knows whether the following counterfactual proposition is true or false- “if Jordan Hampton was the Roman prefect at the time of Christ, he would have condemned Jesus to crucifixion.” In God’s natural knowledge this is a logically possible scenario. However, there are other logically possible scenarios as well. I’m thinking of the possibility that I would not have condemned Jesus to crucifixion. So, God knows what could happen. Since I never was the Roman prefect though, God could not have known the truth or falsity of that counterfactual proposition through his foreknowledge. His foreknowledge only includes knowledge of the things that actually will happen. But it never did happen that I was the Roman prefect. So, God knows the truth of this counterfactual proposition through his middle knowledge, what I would have freely chosen to do under those circumstances.

So with that very brief introduction to Molinism, now you can begin to imagine how this would apply to the topic of eternal security. Through God’s middle knowledge, he knows the exact set of circumstances in which I would freely accept his offer of salvation, but later freely reject him and fall away. God also knows the exact circumstances in which I would freely accept his offer of salvation and persevere to the end. My contention is that God has actualized a world in which all true believers are put in circumstances under which they will freely persevere to the end though they still possess the freedom to do otherwise. This is only possible through God’s middle knowledge though. God is able to guarantee my perseverance, while leaving me the possibility of forfeiting my salvation. God can do this because he knows precisely what I would do with my freedom under any set of circumstances, and he knows what circumstances to place me in such that I will not use my freedom to forfeit my faith in Christ.

Having defended the second contention of the Molinist view of eternal security, I will move to the third and final claim- God uses the warning passages as just one of many means to keep true born-again believers from falling away. The reason I include this final claim in my Molinistic argument for eternal security is that someone may object to my argument at this point and say that the warning passages are meaningless or purposeless if a true believer will not fall away. Why would God need to warn them if he already knows that they will not fall? The Molinist response is that if God did not give the warnings, then some true believers would fall away. Notice how I said that. That is a counterfactual about which God knows the truth value via his middle knowledge. If that is difficult to grasp, let me briefly describe it another way. Here goes...

Prior to God creating the world, he had a range of possible worlds he could create, each unique in the people who who make it up, and the affairs they would engage in. So God chose to create a world in which the maximal number of people are saved and the fewest are lost based on the their own free choices. For every single person in that world, God chose a meticulous set of conditions for their entire life. Conditions like the time they would be born, the place they would grow up in, the family they would be born into, the school they would attend, the job they would work, the group of friends they would surround themselves with, etc. Now prior to creating this world God knew (via his middle knowledge) the exact conditions to put an individual in that would result in that person freely choosing to follow Jesus. God also knew (via his middle knowledge) the exact conditions to put that same individual in so that they would freely choose to follow Jesus their entire life, never falling away. The Molinist would say that among the many conditions that God would have to put that individual, one of those conditions is exposure to warnings of the fate he or she would suffer if they denied Christ. On this understanding, the warning passages of scripture are a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for Christians to freely persevere. So, the Molinist contends that God knew he needed to give these warnings in scripture or else at least some people would not freely persevere. And since God desires that all true believers would persevere he uses the warnings as a means to that end.

An analogy would be like a mother telling her child not to touch the hot iron or the child will be severely burned. Had the warning not been given, the child would have touched the hot iron. But the warning gives the child the motivation necessary to freely choose not to touch the hot iron. The mother used the warning as a means to protect the child. Similarly, God uses the warnings of punishment for apostasy to protect us from it. Now, I do not want to suggest that the warning passages are the only means that God can use to help someone persevere. I am contending that every single minute event in their life is ultimately aimed at them persevering to the end. Worshipping God in song, regularly meeting with and being encouraged by believers at church, prayer, fasting, studying God’s word are all examples of the means he uses to help us persevere. For me, God has used apologetics to help me persevere through significant challenges to my faith. And on this Molinist view, God also uses the promise passages to help encourage us that we will persevere.

So in summary, I contend that the traditional positions of the POS, OSAS, and CS make sense of only part but not all of the biblical data with regard to eternal security. Each side has what I consider an unnatural or forced interpretation that does not fit well at certain points. However, I hope to have persuaded you that Molinism can make good sense of both streams of texts. The key is that we see each set of passages in separate logical categories, which the text itself seems to do. Then we can affirm that a true believer can fall away, but a true believer never will. God has actualized a possible world in which they will have all the means necessary to freely persevere. He uses warnings as well as promises, and many other features of our lives to do so. The only question now that could lead one to fear that they will not persevere is if they are not sure that they are truly born-again. If you know that you are in fact a child of God then you can rest knowing that you will persevere. As Dr. Kenneth Keathley said “perseverance should be viewed more as a promise than a requirement.”

Note : "POS" = perseverance of the saints : "OSAS" = once saved, always saved ; "CS" = conditional security. God Bless!

The problem with this whole concept is that Jesus did in fact say that many WILL believe and many WILL fall away.

”Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.“
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8‬:‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

According to this statement this is not a hypothetical scenario but an absolute scenario. Jesus isn’t talking about something that can happen, He’s talking about something that will happen.

Galatians 5:4 is another example

”You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.“
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Again another absolute scenario not a hypothetical scenario. Paul isn’t talking about something that can happen, he’s talking about something that has happened.

Again not hypothetical but absolutely

”But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,“
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Again not hypothetical

”“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24‬:‭9‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

These verses are not written about what can happen, they are written about what will happen or has already happened to believers.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nope. Literally impossible.

It would present an unsolvable dilemma: if a believer sealed with the Holy Spirit for eternity and declared forever perfect by God would then fall away completely a second time, how would God respond? It would be a paradox. We have to be kept by His infinite power for His glory and namesake.

It’s not an “unsolvable dilemma” this is just cherry picking bits and pieces of the message and ignoring the context of the message as a whole.

Paul wrote to believers who were sealed with the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 4. If you read the next 8 verses you can clearly see him explaining to them why they cannot continue in sin.

”Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.“
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4‬:‭30‬-‭32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

”Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among YOU, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. FOR/BECAUSE this you know with certainty, that NO IMMORAL OR IMPURE PERSON or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.“
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The message doesn’t stop at Ephesians 4:30 notice the word “Therefore” being the first word in Ephesians 5. This indicates that he is still continuing the same message. Believers who grieve the Holy Spirit are the sons of disobedience who will receive God’s wrath.

The only way we are “forever perfect” is IF we remain in Christ.

”For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, And on their mind I will write them,” He then says, “And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”“
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10‬:‭14‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Again the author is not finished with the message. Here’s the word “Therefore” again

”Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.“
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10‬:‭19‬-‭31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And 1 Peter 1:5 says we are kept by His power THROUGH FAITH, it doesn’t say we are kept against our will or that we are kept through His power without faith.

”Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.“
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1‬:‭3‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This doesn’t mean that we’re protected or kept without remaining in the faith and without abiding in Christ.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus said He would not lose one. Period, done deal. You can write all the paragraphs you want. It's a finalized deal in the courts of heaven. The question is this: are you really born again ?

That’s not what he said at all. He said

”This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.“
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The word “will” here means to desire, it’s the same Greek word used in 1 Timothy 2:3-4

”This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.“
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬-‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The only difference in John 6 and 1 Timothy 2 is that in John 6 the noun form is used and in Timothy the verb form is used. What John 6 is actually saying is that it is the desire of The Father that He lose none because this translation doesn’t contradict the rest of scripture. The way you’re interpreting it contradicts numerous verses. According to your interpretation how can John 15:6 be true?

”If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.“
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

According to your interpretation of John 6:39, the statement Jesus makes in John 15:6 would be impossible.

 

[BNR32FAN]

" My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand." ( John 10:27-29 ).

To me, that should be all that is needed to answer the question.

That’s the problem people see this and that’s all they want to see. If I hold a frog in my hand and I say no one can snatch this frog from my hand, have I said that the frog can’t jump from my hand? Have I said that I can’t throw the frog away? This verse is referring to the inability of a THIRD PARTY to be able to cause someone to lose their salvation. In John 15:2 Jesus specifically says that The Father cuts off branches in Him that do not bear fruit.

”“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.“
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

In verses 3-7 the whole thing Jesus is talking about is telling people not to turn away from Him, why they shouldn’t turn away from Him, the consequences for turning away from Him, and what they can expect IF they don’t turn away from Him.

”“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.“
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Rapture Bound]

Must vs. Will :

1 John 5:4, For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."

It's my assertion that at the point of new birth/regeneration, as a consequence of fully trusting in Christ's atoning work ... a believer has, at that very point in time, "overcome the world" and is consequently assured of receiving a heavenly inheritance ... they will assuredly enter the Gates of Heaven..

On the other hand, the "conditionalists" [those who claim that some genuine believers will ultimately forfeit their salvation and forever perish in the Lake of Fire] assert that believers must continue trusting in Christ in order to receive their heavenly inheritance ... unfortunately, some will not.

Therefore, the glaring distinction/disagreement here lies in the words between will and must. In order to shed more light on the opposing viewpoints - consider the following key questions :

Should we view faith as a condition of "continued salvation"? or, should we perceive that "enduring faith" as the guaranteed byproduct of regeneration?

Must believers persevere by faith, in the faith? ... or will God preserve the believer's faith?

Here's how I perceive a harmonization between those seemingly irreconcilable viewpoints :

There exists a sense in which it shouldn't be understood as an "either/or" scenario, but rather "both/and" :

(1) We [believers] must persevere by faith, in the faith to enter Heaven (2 Tim. 2:12; Heb.3:14;10:26). Not to persevere is to perish.

(2) God will preserve us [believers] in our faith even though at times we may doubt and wander from the path of righteousness. But He will always remain true to his promise by ensuring that none of His children will fall so far as to apostatize .[totally abandon or reject one's religion]. God will preserve us, therefore, we will in fact persevere, we will endure in faith.

Jude 1:1-2,”Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and **preserved in Jesus Christ:”**

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24,” Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, **who will also do it.”**