Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

[Rapture Bound]

Yes but the point was that simply believing that Jesus will forgive all your sins doesn’t actually save someone. That was the whole point of the example. Hitler would not be saved just because he believed that Jesus would forgive him while he continued to keep on killing innocent people.

Oh boy -- I missed your entire point indeed ....sigh. In that case, I believe that the entire scenario that you couched your question in would never actuate/materialize ... since I don't believe he was ever saved to begin with.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well, I'm still not exactly sure what you're asking, but if I were to guess, it would be virtually synonymous with Clare's [paraphrase in post #443] of your question ---- "Do you think you could be born again and do what Hitler did?" ... So, I'll run with that.

In my opinion, I don't believe any born again believer would ever commit the atrocities that Hitler did. I would even take it further and say I don't believe the vast majority of unregenerated people would actually do what Hitler did if given the opportunity [and were not in a state of severe mental decline/disorder].

However, I suppose it's plausible for a born again believer to commit those crimes against humanity if they were suffering from some type of severe cognitive dysfunction. Therefore, only in the case of extreme exceptions like this would a born again believer ever opt to order the deaths of innocent people like Hitler did.

At it's core, the question at hand appears to essentially turn back upon the extent and efficacy of the change of nature that was necessarily accomplished in each person that become a new creature in Christ the moment they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. [2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new ...

Ezekiel 36:26-27, "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."

I would also point out that Paul warned the Ephesians of grieving the Holy Spirit then went on to explicitly why.

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4‬:‭30‬-‭32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul continues in the opening statements of the next chapter.

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Do you think Paul told them this because they were incapable of doing these things because they had received a new heart? In 1 Corinthians 2 Paul writes to the Corinthians telling them that unless they set their mind on the Spirit they cannot discern spiritual matters.

“For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2‬:‭10‬-‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬

He continues on this subject into the next chapter

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Again even tho the Corinthians were believers and had received the Holy Spirit they were still carnal and walking like mere men because they weren’t setting their mind on the Spirit.

Paul discusses the same thing in the epistle to the Romans.

“Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭1‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

For there is no condemnation for those who ARE IN CHRIST. Not for those who were in Christ at some point. He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Justification is for those who walk in the spirit, not for those who walk in the flesh. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. We are under OBLIGATION to walk in the Spirit. IF we walk in the Spirit we will live, if we walk in the flesh we will die.

There are numerous passages that clearly indicate that born again believers who have received the Holy Spirit can in fact ignore the Spirit and fall away leading to condemnation. These are just a few of them.

 

[d taylor]

-
​

Just as their are sorry family members, people at a work place or on a sports team. In the church Jesus is building there are born again children of God, who are just plain sorry children. Who prefer the pleasures of the world over building a relationship with their Father, and having a good bema seat judgment .

 

[BNR32FAN]

The severed is in a positional sense that is a broken fellowship , the believer has moved away from God's grace and trying to maintain a relationship with God through the law. Nothing in the verse even come close to saying they have lost their Eternal Life.

That if the believer is going to go back to the law, they will be on their own while liviong out their earthy life.

Ahh so even tho they’ve been severed from Christ and fallen from grace they’re still saved? Even tho Christ has become of no benefit to them they’re still saved? I could’ve sworn I read somewhere that without Christ’s sacrifice that we were all condemned to the lake of fire for all eternity.

 

[BNR32FAN]

-
​

Just as their are sorry family members, people at a work place or on a sports team. In the church Jesus is building there are born again children of God, who are just plain sorry children. Who prefer the pleasures of the world over building a relationship with their Father, and having a good bema seat judgment .

Oh wow, so it’s just a relationship barrier then? What your saying is that even if we don’t walk in the Spirit we will still receive eternal life?

“So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭12‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[d taylor]

Oh wow, so it’s just a relationship barrier then? What your saying is that even if we don’t walk in the Spirit we will still receive eternal life?

“So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭12‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This is something that continues escapes your understanding

A person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life at the very moment of belief in Jesus, there is no waiting or to see if we do this or do that.

At the very moment of belief in Jesus the person crosses over from death to life.

 

[Rapture Bound]

I would also point out that Paul warned the Ephesians of grieving the Holy Spirit then went on to explicitly why.

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4‬:‭30‬-‭32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul continues in the opening statements of the next chapter.

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Do you think Paul told them this because they were incapable of doing these things because they had received a new heart? In 1 Corinthians 2 Paul writes to the Corinthians telling them that unless they set their mind on the Spirit they cannot discern spiritual matters.

“For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2‬:‭10‬-‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬

He continues on this subject into the next chapter

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Again even tho the Corinthians were believers and had received the Holy Spirit they were still carnal and walking like mere men because they weren’t setting their mind on the Spirit.

Paul discusses the same thing in the epistle to the Romans.

“Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭1‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

For there is no condemnation for those who ARE IN CHRIST. Not for those who were in Christ at some point. He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Justification is for those who walk in the spirit, not for those who walk in the flesh. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. We are under OBLIGATION to walk in the Spirit. IF we walk in the Spirit we will live, if we walk in the flesh we will die.

There are numerous passages that clearly indicate that born again believers who have received the Holy Spirit can in fact ignore the Spirit and fall away leading to condemnation. These are just a few of them.

"There are numerous passages that clearly indicate that born again believers who have received the Holy Spirit can in fact ignore the Spirit and fall away leading to condemnation. These are just a few of them."

Yes they can ... but they won't ... God has promised to preserve ALL of His sons and daughters from ultimately eternally perishing in the Lake of Fire. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, "23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be ***PRESERVED*** blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful, who also*** WILL*** do it."

 

[Clare73]

I would also point out that Paul warned the Ephesians of grieving the Holy Spirit then went on to explicitly why.

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4‬:‭30‬-‭32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul continues in the opening statements of the next chapter.

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Do you think Paul told them this because they were incapable of doing these things because they had received a new heart? In 1 Corinthians 2 Paul writes to the Corinthians telling them that unless they set their mind on the Spirit they cannot discern spiritual matters.

“For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2‬:‭10‬-‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬

He continues on this subject into the next chapter

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Again even tho the Corinthians were believers and had received the Holy Spirit they were still carnal and walking like mere men because they weren’t setting their mind on the Spirit.

Paul discusses the same thing in the epistle to the Romans.

“Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭1‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

For there is no condemnation for those who ARE IN CHRIST. Not for those who were in Christ at some point. He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. JustificaI tion is for those who walk in the spirit, not for those who walk in the flesh. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. We are under OBLIGATION to walk in the Spirit. IF we walk in the Spirit we will live, if we walk in the flesh we will die.

There are numerous passages that clearly indicate that born again believers who have received the Holy Spirit can in fact ignore the Spirit and fall away leading to condemnation. These are just a few of them.

I suggest that of all the professing believers to whom Paul addressed this exhortation, the wheat obeyed and the tares not so much.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God does everything on His end according to His Word to keep you, but if we break His Word and we do not even realize we have to seek forgiveness with the Lord or we do not even realize that sin can place in a state of spiritual death, then we are only deceiving ourselves. God does not hold us captive against our will. We have to choose this day in whom we will serve. This is a daily thing and not a one time past event. While we are changed after being saved by God’s grace, we do need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Narrow is the way and FEW be there that find it. Meaning, most Christians are preaching today the exact opposite of the narrow way. They preach everything is fine if you believe in Jesus and His finished work. But there are warnings by Jesus and His followers against how sin can destroy our souls. What if hypothetical scenarios (Molinism) is only in God’s control. I have no idea what God does to try and keep me. But I am also not going to be cavalier and think I am His #1 saved saint. I cannot presume that. I have to be humble always before God and seek to always trust in His grace, and continue in His Word by faith, and to stay away from sin. If not, I am not going to make it. There are many warnings given to us believers. Matthew 13:41-42 should be like a cold splash of water to wake Christians up. But alas, they want what their preacher taught or some churches teaches to give them comfort. Yet, no preacher, or church will save you come Judgment Day. Only your adherence to what God’s Word actually says and not what we wish it to say should hopefully set us on the straight and narrow. Do not chase after money, women, worldly things, or seek to make yourself great. Seek first the Kingdom of God. Be real with the Lord and bear your life before Him honestly. We have to think we are living in the last days and if you were to just read the New Testament without the filter of your church or what you have been taught that comforts you, then you will see. Start over with the Lord. Seek forgiveness with Him.

 

[Rapture Bound]

God does everything on His end according to His Word to keep you, but if we break His Word and we do not even realize we have to seek forgiveness with the Lord or we do not even realize that sin can place in a state of spiritual death, then we are only deceiving ourselves. God does not hold us captive against our will. We have to choose this day in whom we will serve. This is a daily thing and not a one time past event. While we are changed after being saved by God’s grace, we do need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Narrow is the way and FEW be there that find it. Meaning, most Christians are preaching today the exact opposite of the narrow way. They preach everything is fine if you believe in Jesus and His finished work. But there are warnings by Jesus and His followers against how sin can destroy our souls. What if hypothetical scenarios (Molinism) is only in God’s control. I have no idea what God does to try and keep me. But I am also not going to be cavalier and think I am His #1 saved saint. I cannot presume that. I have to be humble always before God and seek to always trust in His grace, and continue in His Word by faith, and to stay away from sin. If not, I am not going to make it. There are many warnings given to us believers. Matthew 13:41-42 should be like a cold splash of water to wake Christians up. But alas, they want what their preacher taught or some churches teaches to give them comfort. Yet, no preacher, or church will save you come Judgment Day. Only your adherence to what God’s Word actually says and not what we wish it to say should hopefully set us on the straight and narrow. Do not chase after money, women, worldly things, or seek to make yourself great. Seek first the Kingdom of God. Be real with the Lord and bear your life before Him honestly. We have to think we are living in the last days and if you were to just read the New Testament without the filter of your church or what you have been taught that comforts you, then you will see. Start over with the Lord. Seek forgiveness with Him.

There's lot to unpack here my friend ... perhaps asking me specific questions concerning my OSAS, Molinist, 4-point Arminian perspective would be helpful. The way I see it, in order to logically and consistently hold to a OSAS 4-point Arminian soteriology ... Molinism must be included ... it's simply intrinsic to that soteriology as a whole [it's right here where much of the confusion emanates].

As far as "denominational soteriology" is concerned, from all that I've seen, the majority of OSAS 4-point Arminians identify themselves as traditional Southern Baptists. Although virtually all within the traditional Southern Baptist camp reject Calvin's 5-point view on God's predestination and election to salvation, many unfortunately adopt the traditional Arminian perspective [which portrays an incomplete view of it, although it's surely a much better representation than a Calvinistic 5-point view]. The vast majority [if not all] of the issues that you have mentioned in your post actually turn full circle, and rest upon a proper view of God's predestination and election to salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There's lot to unpack here my friend ... perhaps asking me specific questions concerning my OSAS, Molinist, 4-point Arminian perspective would be helpful. The way I see it, in order to logically and consistently hold to a OSAS 4-point Arminian soteriology ... Molinism must be included ... it's simply intrinsic to that soteriology as a whole [it's right here where much of the confusion emanates].

As far as "denominational soteriology" is concerned, from all that I've seen, the majority of OSAS 4-point Arminians identify themselves as traditional Southern Baptists. Although virtually all within the traditional Southern Baptist camp reject Calvin's 5-point view on God's predestination and election to salvation, many unfortunately adopt the traditional Arminian perspective [which portrays an incomplete view of it, although it's surely a much better representation than a Calvinistic 5-point view]. The vast majority [if not all] of the issues that you have mentioned in your post actually turn full circle, and rest upon a proper view of God's predestination and election to salvation.

Well, first, respectfully and in love, I would like to say: I find OSAS to be extremely anti-biblical and it does not teach a proper view of sin and salvation as the Bible describes it. For example: The parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) and James 5:19-20 both teach that a believer can go from a saved state, to a lost state, and then back to being saved again. OSAS must change the truth of these verses. Thus, I believe OSAS is a very shallow reading of the Scriptures and one has to either ignore or twist many verses in order to make OSAS work. Every OSAS verse can be easily refuted by looking at the context or the whole of Scripture. If OSAS was true, then Jesus talking about the narrow way involving believers in Matthew 7 would not make any sense (of which we can discuss it if you like).

Second, Molinism does not prove OSAS in my view. What ifs and hypothetical possibilities are somehow in our favor? Yes, I know Scripture talks about how the Lord knows of alternate possibilities, but I never get the impression from Scripture that these possibilities would always work towards our favor so as to not to worry about how sin can destroy our souls (Which is what OSAS basically teaches - IMHO). For example: Jesus relates to how if Tyre and Sidon had seen the miracles Jesus did, they would have repented (See: Matthew 11:21). But this did not happen. The favorable position of Tyre and Sidon repenting did not take place for them. When Jesus was making a point about how Tyre and Sidon would have repented if they seen His miracles, it was merely a point to show the hardness of heart of Chorazin, and Bethsaida (who were living during His present time involving His earthly ministry). By no means did the “alternate possibility” work positively in Tyre and Sidon’s favor. God seen an alternate possibility that could have worked in their favor to save Tyre and Sidon but this possibility was not chosen for them. The good possibility of salvation did not happen for them.

There are tons of warnings in Scripture about how various sins can destroy our souls. With these warnings, there are no “comforting attached what if possibilities” mentioned about how God is going to save us (despite ourselves).

Jesus warned about how looking upon a woman in lust will place us in danger of being cast bodily into hellfire (Matthew 5:28-30). There is no Molinism (What if universes or possibilities) attached to this warning that works in our favor so as not to worry about this. The same is true for Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Timothy 5:8, 1 Timothy 6:3-4, and many other New Testament verses.

I have always found Molinism kind of confusing. Perhaps you can explain it better like you would to a child If my above statement does not sound like the voice of reason here involving the Holy Scriptures.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Most today will say that those who have fallen away from the faith as mentioned in the Scriptures were not true believers.
But 1 Timothy 5:8 refutes this thinking.

1 Timothy 5:8 says, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”

Okay. An infidel is an unbeliever. This is what it says in other translations and it is defined as such in dictionaries.
So this verse is saying that if you (as a believer) do not provide for your own, you have…

(a) Denied the faith.
(b) You are worse than an unbeliever.

This verse cannot be in reference to false pretending believers who were never saved because it is saying that the reader (which is written to believers) who does not provide for his own is worse than an unbeliever. An unbeliever (fake believer) cannot be worse than unbeliever. It makes no sense. A fake believer would still be an unbeliever. They cannot be worse than unbeliever if they are already one.

So 1 Timothy 5:8 is conditional. You must provide for your own or you will lose your salvation, unless you seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus, and turn back to providing for your own. Why? Because it says by not providing for your own you have (a) Denied the faith, and (b) you are worse than an unbeliever. People who deny the faith are not saved. People who are worse than unbelievers are not saved. Think. Just read the Bible like a child and accept what it plainly says, and do not fight against God’s Holy Word.

Again, this does not negate God’s offer of mercy. A believer who later goes off track and does not provide for their own can seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and go back to providing for their own. God‘s mercy is abundant. But we cannot expect to be saved by just believing in the person of Jesus alone for salvation without believing in His warnings against sin, and or refusing to partake of right conduct, etcetera. Even His followers like Paul admit to this fact with 1 Timothy 5:8, Galatians 6:8-9, and Galatians 5:19-21.

We are not forced to be a certain way. If God just changed us to mindless slave puppets of doing good, then there would be no warnings on sin destroying our souls or how not doing good (like helping the poor, and providing for your own cost us our salvation).

 

[Clare73]

No we musn't.
That's not important.
If Yahweh takes away free will when someone becomes a "true believer" , then perhaps they can never lose their inheritance in the life to come.
If Yahweh does not take away their free will, then that's a totally different story.

God does not take away free will, which does not operate in a vacuum, but is governed by the disposition--what one prefers and likes.

God simply works in their disposition giving them to prefer to obey God, and so that is what their will freely chooses.
The born again do not lose their salvation, for God works in them both to will and to do (Php 2:13) his good will.

 

[Rapture Bound]

No we musn't.
That's not important.
If Yahweh takes away free will when someone becomes a "true believer" , then perhaps they can never lose their inheritance in the life to come.
If Yahweh does not take away their free will,
then that's a totally different story.

Well, I for one, certainly do not believe that YHWH takes away free will when someone becomes a "true believer". Perhaps you are making a false assumption that I do? ... not really sure.

 

[Rapture Bound]

No we musn't.
That's not important.
If Yahweh takes away free will when someone becomes a "true believer" , then perhaps they can never lose their inheritance in the life to come.
If Yahweh does not take away their free will,
then that's a totally different story.

Here's a more detailed explanation of the scenario coming from my [Molinist - OSAS Arminian] perspective :

Although a regenerate person could turn back [due to the possession of free moral agency], they simply won't; they won't ultimately apostatize from the faith due to their renewed nature coupled with God's preserving means. The means that God utilizes are positive [blessings] and negative [warnings passages throughout the scriptures] along with his His chastening hand. A truly new creature in Christ will, in the end, respond to those means .... some take the easier road, while others may have to experience much more of their Father's disciplinary measures.

God has promised to preserve ALL of His sons and daughters from ultimately eternally perishing in the Lake of Fire. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, "23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be ***PRESERVED*** blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful, who also*** WILL*** do it."

 

[Rapture Bound]

I don't remember seeing you ever mentioning anything like that .
There aer others though who err, thinking and even demanding in a way that they lose their free will when they are saved, to both promote and to defend a false gospel .

Well, there are presently well over 400 replies to my thread, and it would be very easy to have missed my statements concerning it. And yes, there are those out there who are utilizing the wrong means/arguments to defend an unscriptural position, while, on the other hand, others utilize the wrong means/arguments to defend a particular position ... which is actually scriptural [which just adds to all the confusion out there].

But as it concerns the matter of free will in the life of the believer, I would say that the core issue involved here has to do with the extent of the change of nature that a person experiences the moment they have been regenerated. That is, "to what extent are the faculties of that person affected or changed?" Those who have been indwelt with God the Holy Spirit have become new creatures "in Christ" :

2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

 

[Rapture Bound]

Recently I was asked the following question ... "Do you believe in any form of eternal security?" ... Here was my response :

In order to give you a somewhat clearer answer to your question I'll need to give you some of my other soteriological beliefs, since the issue of a believer's eternal security touches upon, and is interconnected with so many other theological issues. The basic understanding of most appears to be that there are two choices here : the conditional or unconditional eternal security of the believer. However, to make your question more specific, the question would be, "Will any genuine, blood-bought children of God forfeit or lose their salvation subsequent to being regenerated by the Holy Spirit ... and consequently perish in the Lake of Fire? To that question I would say - absolutely not.

There is only one true teaching concerning the eternal security of the believer, and the Free Grace Movement falls short in many ways concerning it's true nature [they, as others, sadly misrepresent the true scriptural teaching ... and give the true representation a "bad rap". So, obviously I wouldn't identify with that camp. In fact, I really don't fit into either of the two basic camps that modern day Christianity, for the most part, is divided into ... Calvinism or Arminianism. It appears to me that 5-point Calvinism has done more damage to Christianity than good due to Calvin's heretical, fatalistic perspective on predestination and God's election to salvation. With that said, God is nevertheless able to use those churches that teach that abomination out of ignorance and save some individuals held captive within those organizations that promote the God-dishonoring 5-point doctrines of T.U.L.I.P.

In my 39 years plus of earnestly sorting through this theological matrix, I would have to say that my overall soteriological perspective is much closer to that held by Arminians than that of the Calvinists... and perhaps that advocated by Classical Arminianism. I would agree that faith precedes regeneration [i.e. - the issue concerning freedom of man's will], and that some type of prevenient grace is necessary in the conversion of unregenerated individuals. However, with that said, in other major points, such as predestination and election to salvation and the eternal security of the believer ... I disagree with all the 'flavors' held within the Arminian camp, and therefore stand in the minority position [and, as a result, am unfortunately often misunderstood by most ... although I'm certainly not alone]. Unlike the Calvinist view on predestination, I don't perceive the Arminian perspective as being heretical, but instead very incomplete.[here I adopt the Molinist perspective on the topic ... and am not an open theist].

Perhaps, if I were to 'categorize" myself, I could most closely identify with those articles drafted by Eric Hankins, Pastor of First Baptist Church in Oxford, Mississippi and former vice president of the Southern Baptist Convention. In an interview [also linked below], Eric said he wrote those articles in an attempt to expose those who promote Calvinism - primarily 5-point Calvinism that has infested many of the Southern Baptist churches in recent history. He said he wrote it in such a way that the 5-point Calvinist would not be able to sign on. I could affirm all of his statements concerning predestination and election to salvation with his document as being true, with the caveat of his viewpoint of predestination as being incomplete - i.e. - lacking important components [it's essentially the same as the basic Arminian viewpoint]. Perhaps you might find the following info interesting.

Eric Hankin's statement of beliefs are given in this article :

(1) "Non-Calvinist’ Southern Baptists issue statement of beliefs – by Staff"

‘Non-Calvinist’ Southern Baptists issue statement of beliefs – by Staff

We deny that this atonement results in salvation without a person’s free response of repentance and faith. We deny that God imposes or withholds this atonement without respect to an act of the person’s free will. We deny that Christ died only for the sins of those who will be saved… We deny that...

theaquilareport.com

(2) "Provisionism in the SBC | Interview with Dr. Eric Hankins" [The Provisionist Perspective - YouTube]

 

[FredVB]

The unrepentant are not believers. If they say they are, they will quit. No salvation is lost that way, they never had it. Real believers have repentance, God seals them and they have salvation and everlasting life with that, the repentant believers will not quit from their faith and being in Christ who secures them.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Recently I was asked the following question ... "Do you believe in any form of eternal security?" ... Here was my response :

In order to give you a somewhat clearer answer to your question I'll need to give you some of my other soteriological beliefs, since the issue of a believer's eternal security touches upon, and is interconnected with so many other theological issues. The basic understanding of most appears to be that there are two choices here : the conditional or unconditional eternal security of the believer. However, to make your question more specific, the question would be, "Will any genuine, blood-bought children of God forfeit or lose their salvation subsequent to being regenerated by the Holy Spirit ... and consequently perish in the Lake of Fire? To that question I would say - absolutely not.

There is only one true teaching concerning the eternal security of the believer, and the Free Grace Movement falls short in many ways concerning it's true nature [they, as others, sadly misrepresent the true scriptural teaching ... and give the true representation a "bad rap". So, obviously I wouldn't identify with that camp. In fact, I really don't fit into either of the two basic camps that modern day Christianity, for the most part, is divided into ... Calvinism or Arminianism. It appears to me that 5-point Calvinism has done more damage to Christianity than good due to Calvin's heretical, fatalistic perspective on predestination and God's election to salvation. With that said, God is nevertheless able to use those churches that teach that abomination out of ignorance and save some individuals held captive within those organizations that promote the God-dishonoring 5-point doctrines of T.U.L.I.P.

In my 39 years plus of earnestly sorting through this theological matrix, I would have to say that my overall soteriological perspective is much closer to that held by Arminians than that of the Calvinists... and perhaps that advocated by Classical Arminianism. I would agree that faith precedes regeneration [i.e. - the issue concerning freedom of man's will], and that some type of prevenient grace is necessary in the conversion of unregenerated individuals. However, with that said, in other major points, such as predestination and election to salvation and the eternal security of the believer ... I disagree with all the 'flavors' held within the Arminian camp, and therefore stand in the minority position [and, as a result, am unfortunately often misunderstood by most ... although I'm certainly not alone]. Unlike the Calvinist view on predestination, I don't perceive the Arminian perspective as being heretical, but instead very incomplete.[here I adopt the Molinist perspective on the topic ... and am not an open theist].

Perhaps, if I were to 'categorize" myself, I could most closely identify with those articles drafted by Eric Hankins, Pastor of First Baptist Church in Oxford, Mississippi and former vice president of the Southern Baptist Convention. In an interview [also linked below], Eric said he wrote those articles in an attempt to expose those who promote Calvinism - primarily 5-point Calvinism that has infested many of the Southern Baptist churches in recent history. He said he wrote it in such a way that the 5-point Calvinist would not be able to sign on. I could affirm all of his statements concerning predestination and election to salvation with his document as being true, with the caveat of his viewpoint of predestination as being incomplete - i.e. - lacking important components [it's essentially the same as the basic Arminian viewpoint]. Perhaps you might find the following info interesting.

Eric Hankin's statement of beliefs are given in this article :

(1) "Non-Calvinist’ Southern Baptists issue statement of beliefs – by Staff"

‘Non-Calvinist’ Southern Baptists issue statement of beliefs – by Staff

We deny that this atonement results in salvation without a person’s free response of repentance and faith. We deny that God imposes or withholds this atonement without respect to an act of the person’s free will. We deny that Christ died only for the sins of those who will be saved… We deny that...

theaquilareport.com

(2) "Provisionism in the SBC | Interview with Dr. Eric Hankins" [The Provisionist Perspective - YouTube]

Southern Baptists - Calvinism & Arminianism - historical facts :

Baptists have, in fact, historically debated Calvinism and Arminianism. Early English Baptists were also divided over the debate, with General Baptists identifying more with Arminians and Particular Baptists with Calvinists.

By 1950, Southern Baptists had become a programmatic people. From 1954 to 1979 the SBC was on the road to becoming yet another mainline Protestant denomination—by this time the largest Protestant denomination in the country, surpassing United Methodists. With the exception of great men like Curtis Vaughan, James Leo Garrett Jr., and others, most leaders at this time were embarrassed by the SBC’s revivalistic heritage and even more by the Calvinistic aspects of the Charleston Tradition. They wanted nothing to do with it; they wanted to get rid of it any way they could. The SBC attempted to re-envision itself, largely ignoring the nineteenth-century roots of the Southern Baptist Convention.

The spokesperson for the Southern Baptist Convention in many way sat this time was the centrist Herschel Hobbs (1907–1995). He would not have been one of those trying to lead Southern Baptists to become another liberal mainline denomination. Such would be an unfair assessment of Herschel Hobbs in his writings, "What Baptists Believe". In 1964 and the Baptist Faith and Message in 1971, which amplified the work of the Baptist Faith and Message Committee that he led in 1963, Hobbs led Southern Baptists in the middle and latter years of the twentieth century toward a modified understanding of predestination and foreknowledge.

He believed that God affirmed every free human choice in such a way that the choices are not predetermined. ***He maintained that God chose to limit His sovereignty so that men and women could either accept or reject God’s salvific order in Christ.*** Hobbs was almost a thoroughgoing Arminian who believed in eternal security [i.e. an OSAS Arminian such as myself], but he was also a thorough-going biblicist. He influenced Southern Baptists during this period more than any other person. For 28 years he wrote the adult Sunday school lesson for every Sunday school teacher in Southern Baptist life. So the middle of the twentieth century saw the 'Arminianizing' of the SBC.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Perhaps choice is not the issue ? The Truth is not acceptable nor seen by the world at large, or most groups?
i.e. Scripture>

“I have told you,” replied Jesus, “and you do not believe it. What I have done in my Father’s name is sufficient to prove my claim, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep recognise my voice and I know who they are. They follow me and I give them eternal life. They will never die and no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. And no one can tear anything out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are One.”

Gotta love these verses that provide us with such a priceless promise! The issue here that's commonly misunderstood has to do with the perception of human free moral agency as it relates to the issue of the eternal security of the believer. Once a person has freely [through the utilization of their free moral agency] received the free gift of God through the instrumentality of faith ... they simply will never be snatched out of God's hand ... He will preserve them in the faith ..."they will never die" = "Once Justified, Always Justified" [OJAJ].

"My sheep recognise my voice and I know who they are. They follow me and I give them eternal life."

It's vital to realize that Jesus said that His sheep follow Him ... He didn't say that only some of His sheep follow Him or that some of His sheep will begin following Him and then later decide to depart from Him ... but plainly declared that His sheep follow Him = His sheep will follow Him [due to the fact that they have been made new creatures in Christ - 2 Corinthians 5:17].

"but you do not believe because you are not my sheep."

Therefore, it only logically and scripturally follows that those who have never placed their trust exclusively on Christ's atoning work on the cross, rather than anything they can bring to the table for their justified standing before God ... were never Christ's sheep, and for that reason they have never believed unto justification, nor can continue believing unto the day of the redemption of their bodies [at glorification].

Concerning Herschel Hobbs statement, "He believed that God affirmed every free human choice in such a way that the choices are not predetermined." :

Well, I can't presently find any of his writings where he expounds his personal detailed understanding on the issue of God's providence and predestination, but I believe the following statement best summarizes my Molinist view in a nutshell :

"Concerning God's selection of the particular world that He chose to actualize :

It is up to God whether I find myself in a world in which I am predestined ; but it is up to me whether I am predestined [to salvation] in the world in which I find myself.......

Acts 13:48,"Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

God chooses which feasible world to actualize ; in every feasible world God gives sufficient grace to every person for salvation."