Can a Christian be a Freemason???

[AoDoA]

To Rev Wayne,

Ok that’s ok then; let me just double check, prayer to Father Son and Holy spirit instead of the great architect of the universe?
If that’s who the great architect of the universe is then why not God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, why use great architect of the universe?

Do you take any oaths? If so can you give an example?

hes sworn to secrecy

like all Masons the brotherhood comes before all else including Chirst(I'm assuming but I bet I'm right)

 

[Rev Wayne]

To Rev Wayne,
But if the truth isnt based on what the boy scouts do, who cares? … or at least ignore the error the scouts make as well.

Nobody said anything about an "error."

 

[Rev Wayne]

To Rev Wayne,

Ok that’s ok then; let me just double check, prayer to Father Son and Holy spirit instead of the great architect of the universe?
If that’s who the great architect of the universe is then why not God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, why use great architect of the universe?

To your first question, there is no "instead of."

To the second, why not? It's certainly biblical, as I already showed; and there's certainly nothing there to prohibit it, so what could be problematic about it?

 

[Rev Wayne]

They do that with any organistaion that doesnt require a belief, but I thought someone said freemasonry requires a belief in god/God?

So do the Scouts.

 

[Rev Wayne]

you are either in EXTREME denial, or hopelessly brainwashed by your "brothers" or your a liar

Or I'm right, and antimasons are in EXTREME hyper-delusion. I can support every word of what I stated in that post.

there are no other options in my mind and I will pray for you

Well, I alreayd showed you there are other options, but what's in your mind I cannot remedy, other than tell you the truth that the antimasons won't, for the simple reason, it might cut into their profits to admit otherwise.

But I certainly welcome prayer from my fellow Christians at any and all times.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I was establishing the link between the new age and freemasonry

they are bound at the hip

You "established" nothing, because you were trying to make that link by citing Alice Bailey, whose material is not Masonic, and by plain and simple definition anyone can see was never a Mason.

 

[Rev Wayne]

oh and H.P. Blavatsky was made an honoary Mason because of her book "The Secret Doctrine" which influenced Hitler concerning the superior Aryan blood

you are playing with serious fire my friend

not only are you a part of this organization but you are trying to convince fellow Christians that being a part of it is ok

and its not

I promise you that God is NOT happy about that and I just hope you figure it out before its too late and that you are not too hopelessly brainwashed

God is not happy with me about a lot of things as well(like all of us) but I don't pretend that my sins are honorable and good

thats a big no no in the eyes of the almighty(and it ain't the eye on the top of the pyramid)

You ought to listen to yourself once in awhile, you talk of nonsense. H.P. Blavatsky was never made "an honorary Mason." The award she got was from C0-Masonry, an irregular group. Like I said before, comparing mainstream Masonry to the pseudo-Masonic organizations is like comparing Christianity to unorthodox or cult groups--they may claim legitimacy, but it is a legitimacy of their own creation, and in their own imagination.

I never joined the lodge until God led me to, and even then, with all the negative hype that is out there, it took 12 years for Him to convince me. The Holy Spirit is a patient gentleman, though, and would have taken whatever time was necessary.

I get the idea from your posts that all you know about Masonry is the one-note mantra you keep chanting, planted there by conspiracists who most likely came by theirs exactly the same way, being a pawn who simply believes what he is told without investigating for himself. It's unfortunate for sure, and becoming more and more common every day, which is even more unfortunate.

The average age of Masons in the U.S. is probably about 65, if not higher. Their ranks are thinning, and it's an unbelievable farce to characterize them as having world domination on their minds. Most of them are happy to be able to remember where they left their false teeth last.

 

[Rev Wayne]

like all Masons the brotherhood comes before all else including Chirst(I'm assuming but I bet I'm right)

Then you assume incorrectly. Duty to God is considered the primary duty of a Mason.

As these and other similar doctrines and duties form a part of the very first Charge which is delivered to the incipient Freemason, it may be useful to take a brief view of them, as they apply to God, our neighbour, and ourselves; as they form an exemplification of the moral law which was communicated to our Grand Master Moses from the mountain where the deity had previously manifested himself in a Burning Bush. The first Table of this law describes our duty to God; and the second our duty to our neighbour and ourselves. Let us then see how intimately these duties correspond with the teaching of our noble order.
Freemasonry directs us to put our sole trust in the One God who dwelleth in the highest heavens, under the several names, in consecutive degrees, of Great Architect — Grand Geometrician of the Universe, and Most High or Jehovah. And teaches the true brother that "every blade of grass which covers the field, every flower which blows, and every insect that wings its way in the bounds of expanded space, proves the existence of a FIRST CAUSE, and yields pleasure to the intelligent mind. (George Oliver, The Symbol of Glory, Shewing the Object and End of Freemasonry, p. 90)

 

[Archivist]

hes sworn to secrecy

like all Masons the brotherhood comes before all else including Chirst(I'm assuming but I bet I'm right)

I just love when people make statements like this without knowing all the facts. Just out of curosity, how many time have you actually sat down and spoken with average Masons about the organization? Maybe you should try that instead of posting all the pictures of people in funny clothing and out-of-context quotations.

 

[Archivist]

They do that with any organistaion that doesnt require a belief, but I thought someone said freemasonry requires a belief in god/God?

It does require such a belief, just life the Boy Scouts require such a belief.

How? For Islam there is only one god Allah, but for Christians there is only one God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

No argument there.

I mean either the people dont have the faith you are saying they have, or freemasonry is tricking them.

Why is this so hard for you? A Christian who is a Mason will believe in God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. A Muslim would have faith in Allah.

As I said earlier, when I was a Boy Scout many years ago, we had people of different faiths in our troop. The requirement was that they had to believe in God, not in the Christian God or the Buddist god or the Muslim god.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Rev Wayne,

Nobody said anything about an "error."

I did.

To your first question, there is no "instead of."

Do you not understand what ‘instead of’ means? GAOTU, Great Architect of the Universe isn’t the same as God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, indeed GAOTU to a Muslim would mean Allah rather than God the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

To the second, why not? It's certainly biblical, as I already showed; and there's certainly nothing there to prohibit it, so what could be problematic about it?

Because it is not Biblical to deceive people into thinking GAOTU can be other gods.

So do the Scouts.

Are you a scout then or shall we discuss the thread topic? As I said they do that with any organisation that doesn’t require a belief, but I thought someone said freemasonry requires a belief in god/God?

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Archivist,

It does require such a belief, just life the Boy Scouts require such a belief.

If it requires a belief in any god its an ungodly organisation as it represents no god.

No argument there.

So what is the point of having a deception of GAOTU?

Why is this so hard for you? A Christian who is a Mason will believe in God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. A Muslim would have faith in Allah.

So what is the point of requiring a belief if the organisation is thus requiring false belief?

Just tell them the truth of Jesus Christ.. oh yes I forgot Freemasonry doesn't allow that does it?

 

[Rev Wayne]

Nobody said anything about an "error."
I did.

Then the error was yours.

[QUOTE-brightmorningstar;54292124]Do you not understand what ‘instead of’ means? [/quote]
No need for the condescending tone.

GAOTU, Great Architect of the Universe isn’t the same as God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, indeed GAOTU to a Muslim would mean Allah rather than God the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

I'm not a Muslim. And to the Muslim "God" would ALSO be Allah. Shall we as the church, then, abandon use of the word "God" simply because of what it can mean to a Muslim?

And you obviously missed the Oliver quote:

Freemasonry directs us to put our sole trust in the One God who dwelleth in the highest heavens, under the several names, in consecutive degrees, of Great Architect — Grand Geometrician of the Universe, and Most High or Jehovah.

Just because Masonry allows individuals to interpret it differently if they wish, does not change the fact that everywhere you look for specific indications in Masonry concerning GAOTU, they all point to the God of the Bible, nor have I found any exceptions. In fact, one of the earliest references that may be found of GAOTU (c. 1725) says He is:

the Grand Architect and Contriver of the Universe; or He that was taken up to the topmost pinnacle of the Holy Temple.

There is only one person I can find who is both "architect of the universe" and who was also "taken up to the topmost pinnacle of the temple," and that is Jesus. So not only is it arguable that GAOTU references the God of the Bible, it is also arguable, from the earliest instances of the use of the phrase, that it originally was conceived with Jesus Christ in mind as its object.

Because it is not Biblical to deceive people into thinking GAOTU can be other gods.

No "deception" involved at all. A Mason is simply asked if he believes in God. If the person answers yes, how then is Masonry responsible for what that person interprets about God? And since, as shown, the discernible indications pointing to what specific God is being referred to in Masonry, ALL point to the God of the Bible, how is Masonry responsible for it if those of other religions somehow miss those clear indications? And shouldn't those of other religions be the ones who have a problem with it, rather than Christians? I for one have no problem with it, for I know to whom it refers, and the one taken to the pinnacle of the temple is the same Jesus I have always worshipped and served.

Are you a scout then or shall we discuss the thread topic?

The question of scouting comes into play under the thread topic, when you or anyone else brings in under that topic, criticisms of Masonry for principles that are comparable to the principles of scouting. Why? Because if there is another organization espousing similar principles, and the same question is asked of THEIR organization, with a different answer apparently being given than when asked of Masonry, it is a perfectly legitimate point to raise, to ask how can that be.

morningstar;54292124]As I said they do that with any organisation that doesn’t require a belief, but I thought someone said freemasonry requires a belief in god/God?

And as I said, so do the scouts. From a BSA statement:

The Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America maintain that no boy can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God. Scouting is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. The Boy Scouts of America does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion. Membership in a religious organization is not required.

That's a requirement of belief in God, yet without any specific requirement that this be the Christian God. Yet, undeniably, churches are probably the number one sponsors of scouting. Our church sponsors a Boy Scout troop, and provides a place of meeting for two Cub Scout groups.

I see the accusers of Masonry constantly vilifying Masonry over this particular point (requirement of a belief in God), yet being strangely silent over the same principle being exemplified by scouting groups with which many churches are affiliated, and to which they offer their willing support. That seems to me to be a double standard.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Just tell them the truth of Jesus Christ.. oh yes I forgot Freemasonry doesn't allow that does it?

There is not one person with whom I have any discourse, in any lodge I have attended, who does not know that I am a Christian pastor. There is nothing "forbidden" about such witness to fellow lodge members. What you refer to is a mutual agreement by which Masons do not discuss matters of religion or politics during the time lodge is in session.

Not that there ever had to be such an agreement anyway, the conducting of the business of the lodge does not really leave any open time during lodge when that could be done anyway. And the fact of the matter is, that the only time which it DOES provide for a free moment--when the lodge moves from work to refreshment--that agreement is not in effect, leaving the Mason free to discuss anything he desires.

But in reality, telling my fellow Masons "the truth of Jesus Christ" would be preaching to the choir, since the only associations I have encountered in the lodges in my jurisdiction, have all been professing Christians.

Or didnt' you know that 85to 90% (some say even higher) of Masons are Christians?

 

[brightmorningstar]

Then the error was yours.

I demonstrated it was yours.

No need for the condescending tone.

That’s fair enough but the question remains, as I understand it the Freemasons refer to Great Architect of the Universe rather than God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,

I'm not a Muslim. And to the Muslim "God" would ALSO be Allah.

If GAOTU isnt Allah, “god”, then why is Freemasonry allowing Muslims to think it is?

Shall we as the church, then, abandon use of the word "God" simply because of what it can mean to a Muslim?

Well you have mixed the church with Freemasonry, the church doesn’t need to change anything as it refers to God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit as the one who created the universe.

Freemasonry directs us to put our sole trust in the One God who dwelleth in the highest heavens, under the several names, in consecutive degrees, of Great Architect — Grand Geometrician of the Universe, and Most High or Jehovah.

Well that’s wrong unless you are saying Allah, who doesn’t have a son = God who is Father Son and Holy Spirit. So no it cant be one God.
Freemasonry is in error.

Just because Masonry allows individuals to interpret it differently if they wish, does not change the fact that everywhere you look for specific indications in Masonry concerning GAOTU, they all point to the God of the Bible, nor have I found any exceptions. In fact, one of the earliest references that may be found of GAOTU (c. 1725) says He is:

So if the indication is God, why are Muslims and members of other religions in the dark on this?

No "deception" involved at all. A Mason is simply asked if he believes in God.

Which is the deception, as if it is God and the person thinks it is another god they don’t actually believe in God.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I demonstrated it was yours.

Horsepuppies. You said:

But if the truth isnt based on what the boy scouts do, who cares? … or at least ignore the error the scouts make as well.

Now, either explain what "error" the boy scouts make, or drop the subject, because your pointless "told you so" kind of posting accomplishes nothing.

If GAOTU isnt Allah, “god”, then why is Freemasonry allowing Muslims to think it is?

Likewise, if "God" isn't Allah, then why is Christianity "allowing" Muslims to think He is (as if it could "stop" them)?

Well you have mixed the church with Freemasonry, the church doesn’t need to change anything as it refers to God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit as the one who created the universe.

It needs to be stated, first of all, that I was referring to instances of Christians/the church referring to Him by using the simple reference "God," which is extremely common. I know of no scenario, publicized or orally within the course of what takes place in church, where every single reference to God is made by referring to "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." So I consider that a false construct upon which to base your return comment on this.

And "comparison" is not "mixing." You're just trying to avoid the obvious implications. Since Freemasonry does not refer to God as "Allah," you have no complaint. Your concerns about what Muslims use to refer to God is duly noted, but irrelevant. Freemasonry can no more do anything about Muslims considering "GAOTU" to be Allah, than the church can do about Muslims considering "God" to be Allah.

Well that’s wrong unless you are saying Allah, who doesn’t have a son = God who is Father Son and Holy Spirit.

Well, that's just it, "I'M" saying no such thing. Nor is Freemasonry, either. Can you cite for me even one instance where Freemasonry refers to God as "Allah?" I didn't think so. Your complaint should be addressed to Muslims, not Masons. THEY are the ones calling God Allah. And they will do that whether they become Masons or not.

So no it cant be one God.

Actually, all Masonry affirms is that there is one Creator. Like I stated earlier, Masonry's concepts are more metaphysical or philosophical in nature. Look at their concept of "Architect" in the same light as you would look at Aristotle's "Unmoved Mover" or Aquinas' "Uncaused Cause." Those terms are philosophical and do not get fleshed out into any one theological system which we refer to as a religion. Yet a Muslim studying philosophy will see these philosophical terms and interpret them according to his Islamic faith.

Yes, Aquinas was within the Christian system, but his terminology is philosophical, and not restricted to the Christian system. Christian philosophy courses are taught with that same framework in mind, keeping within the disciplines of the subject area. Masonry is the same way, its concepts are not, strictly defined, "theological" terms. Yet when you criticize it by comparing it to religious systems like Islam, you are criticizing it on unmerited grounds, for Masonry does not deign to call itself a religion, nor to make any effort to be one.

So if the indication is God, why are Muslims and members of other religions in the dark on this?

I'm still not a Muslim, as I already indicated before, so I don't have a clue. All I did was point to some specific references that ARE found in Masonry, and anyone can see those references fit only the Christian system. You may make as much or as little of it as you wish, it's still just simple fact that those expressions are found there; and it is also fact, that in several years of addressing this subject and having people make the same complaint you do, when this information is shown to them and the challenge is put to them to cite anything they can find in Freemasonry that constitutes evidence of expressions from some OTHER religion, it is always met with silence.

The fact is, though, Muslims in general are the harshest critics of Freemasonry you will find anywhere in the world. they lambaste it as a tool of "Zionism," and make even more venemous remarks about it than they would the Christian church. In fact, in Saudi Arabia, Freemasonry is outlawed. I don't know for sure, but I think it's probably the same in most predominantly Muslim countries you will find. Lebanon is an exception, but Lebanon has an unusually high population percentage of Christians (around 30% or so, as I recall). And I have posted on this site (it may have even been the earlier pages of this thread) photos from the Grand Lodge of Lebanon, showing the Bible on the altar, a large iron cross lying on a table, and big huge crosses on the drapes behind the men posing for a group picture. So even there, it appears to be the Christians of the country who are involved in the lodge, rather than the Muslims.

I really don't understand why there is such a preoccupation on your part with Muslims in regard to the lodge, they hardly make up any significant presence in Masonry. It's almost like the approach is deliberately taking the tack of, "Let's put the worst possible face we can on it."

Besides, it's not like anybody is adopting the Muslim religion just because there are Muslims who may be members. And in this corner of the world, it's hardly likely you'd ever meet one in lodge. Masonry doesn't ask anyone to surrender his Christian beliefs and believe something else. In fact, every Grand Lodge in the U.S. has a presence on the internet with a Grand Lodge webpage, and every one of them I have seen, states in no uncertain terms that your religious beliefs are your own, and Masonry has no interest in trying to change your views at all. And in my experience, it has been completely true.

Which is the deception, as if it is God and the person thinks it is another god they don’t actually believe in God.

Okay, so go start vilifying the scouting organizations as well. Their principles are pretty nearly the same, straight up the line, by comparison. Why does anyone think one organization is problematic because of certain principles, while saying nothing about another organization with the same principles, and with a much larger connection with the Christian church? One would think, that if there is an organization which is much more closely connected with churches, and not only that, but with the potential of having tremendous influence upon our YOUTH, that someone would be spending at least an EQUAL amount of time condemning those same principles in THAT organization's adoption of them, as they do with Freemasonry.

The answer is simple, though, really, nobody has bothered to spend the time even looking at the principles of Scouting; and CERTAINLY the conspiracists have not exactly been tripping over one another to post the next condemnation of scouting, in the same manner that has been directed towards the Masons. The whole scenario of condemnation is ridiculous, really.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Rev Wayne,

Now, either explain what "error" the boy scouts make, or drop the subject, because your pointless "told you so" kind of posting accomplishes nothing.

You cited the scouts, the error is explained concerning freemasonry, if the scouts are the same as you claim, then they are also in error.

Likewise, if "God" isn't Allah, then why is Christianity "allowing" Muslims to think He is (as if it could "stop" them)?

Nope ,I wrote “Allah ‘god’” not “God”, Christianity isnt allowing it and the question was regarding Freemasonry,
If you aren’t prepared to address the actual question the we can’t really debate, we are just talking at each other about two different things.

 

[Rev Wayne]

To Rev Wayne,
You cited the scouts, the error is explained concerning freemasonry, if the scouts are the same as you claim, then they are also in error.

Well, you got one part right, I cited the Scouts. But so far, despite several posts and a significant amount of time gone by, for some reason you have not posted anything to clarify your vague comment about an error. Looks like plain old stubborn refusal, which seems strange, given the level of accusation. If you are so certain it involves an "error," why is it you cannot articulate for us just what you believe it is?

Nope ,I wrote “Allah ‘god’” not “God”, Christianity isnt allowing it and the question was regarding Freemasonry,

Well, Freemasonry isn't "allowing" it either, since politics and religion are not debatable during lodge. And the answer WAS regarding Freemasonry. It's called analogy.

If you aren’t prepared to address the actual question the we can’t really debate, we are just talking at each other about two different things.

If nothing else, at least you show your true colors. I've had this discussion with the same person under different guises, more times than I can count, apparently this is either one more in the list, or a very capable copycat. And always the same, make a vague statement, when it gets challenged for clarification, make an even vaguer comeback, and when it becomes clear that the vagueness is not going to be allowed to stand unquestioned, take the first opportunity when an analogy is presented, to make the specious accusation of being off-topic.

Since you say nothing, apparently you have nothing, and as a result you will receive nothing, for this is no conversation anyway. Adios.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Rev Wayne,

Well, you got one part right, I cited the Scouts. But so far, despite several posts and a significant amount of time gone by, for some reason you have not posted anything to clarify your vague comment about an error.

For some unknown reason you keep referring to what I have been explaining as though I haven’t explained it. Not sure how the discussion can continue if you cant see the questions and points others are putting to you.
[quoe] Well, Freemasonry isn't "allowing" it either, since politics and religion are not debatable during lodge. And the answer WAS regarding Freemasonry. It's called analogy. [/quote] Well no, I wrote ‘Allah god’ and you wrote ‘God’ GAOTU can be seen by people of other faiths as their god, so hence freemasonry is a deception in that respect alone.

 

[Rev Wayne]

For some unknown reason you keep referring to what I have been explaining as though I haven’t explained it.

Brilliant deduction, Sherlock. Now if we can only bring you the rest of the way across that threshold of enlightenment to see that there is one very obvious reason I keep referring to it that way:

because you HAVEN'T explained it. All you did was state the claim that the Scouts had some kind of "error," a vague reference, with no further elucidation upon the point at all.

Not sure how the discussion can continue if you cant see the questions and points others are putting to you.

Exactly! Glad to see you're coming around. So help us out by actually POSTING the point you keep dodging, so we CAN "see" it. Can't see what's never been there to this point.

Now will you stop the posturing and either explain what you meant by the comment about scouts' "error," by showing us what you consider to be error, or at least be honest enough to admit your own refusal?

[quoe] Well, Freemasonry isn't "allowing" it either, since politics and religion are not debatable during lodge. And the answer WAS regarding Freemasonry. It's called analogy.

Well no, I wrote ‘Allah god’ and you wrote ‘God’ GAOTU can be seen by people of other faiths as their god, so hence freemasonry is a deception in that respect alone. [/QUOTE]
A point without a point, because what I said would still be true by analogy. If you can claim Freemasonry is somehow guilty of "deception" because the term can be interpreted otherwise by people of other faiths; then it would also stand true that Christianity would have to be considered "guilty of deception" because the term "God" which finds common usage in Christianity, can also be interpreted differently by those of other faiths.

I think all you're trying to do with your attempted reframe of it, is to duck the obvious implications of the analogy.