Three points on this:
1.) Jesus is dividing nations - not individuals. As much as many teach otherwise - no individual is saved by doing good works. This passage is not talking about individual salvation.
2.) Jesus says that some nations fed His brethren etc. and some did not.
He was speaking of the Jewish people and or Christians when He talked about people being cared for. It's pretty basic theology to understand that not all people who are in prison or who are hungry etc. are Jesus' brothers. Many of the poorest and hungriest people on earth are out and out enemies of God and subjects of His wrath - not His brothers.
3.) Jesus simply stated that the "sheep" nations had done good to His brothers. He also stated that the "goat" nations did not. He even seems to have "implied" that their fate was based on their actions. But it is not logical to say that all who do good are sheep or that all who do not are goats. That may well be true and likely is to some extent. But it does not follow logically from the passage itself.
Again, the obvious - we are talking about the fate of nations not individual salvation.
This is a similar illogical deduction as that of those who say that those who persevere will be saved logically demands that those who do not will not be saved.
I shouldn't have to give a class in logic here - even though it was one of my favorite subjects in college. But some of these supposed leaps of logic are like someone saying that all of the Navy Seals swam across the lake - therefore everyone who was not a Navy Seal drowned.
It may be true. But it is simply not a good logical deduction.
In the case of some of these deductions in this thread - they are simply not logical - let alone good systematic theology.
Simply amazing. You are actually trying to convince everyone that Luke 10, John 10, and Matthew 25 are talking about the same incident and the same people. They aren't. Nor did I say they were.No, that would be incorrect.
What an amazing statement. Have you even read Matthew 25?there is no indication in the text that Matthew 25:31-46 is talking about nations. That is merely fiction. In fact, it is why you did not quote a verse to support this view.
You seemed to be taking a stand that a true Christian (born again) can ultimately lose their salvation.
If that is your position then I would take issue. You do realize many profess themselves as Christian, hang out at Church, even have some bible knowledge, but are not born from above? These I can see lasting awhile and then throwing in the towel. Maybe those tares are what you are referring to?
Why do you think your view has issues? How do you think your view here related to JAMES 1:12?Hi LoveGodsWord, thank you for your encouraging words. Having walked with the Lord for over 30 years now and hearing both sides of the debate (and researching the scriptures feverishly), my personal opinion is this:
We are saved and forgiven when we choose to believe Jesus for what He did for us on the cross, thereby accepting God's free gift of salvation by faith. The only way I can see an individual becoming "unsaved" would be if they no longer choose to believe Jesus for what He did for them on the cross, since He is the only means for salvation. But even THAT view has issues...lol!
Absolutely! AMENGod never forces us into the Kingdom and He doesn't push us out. He always wants people to repent and be saved (2 Peter 3:9), but the choice is always up to us to either accept or reject it at any given time. That is why I love 1 John 5:11-13 which says, "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."
It's all about belief/faith in Jesus...
But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
Now these things became Our Examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play." Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now All these things happened to them As Examples, and they were written For Our Admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed Lest He Fall
• 1 Corinthians 10: 5-12
Do not cast me away from Your presence, And Do Not Take Your Holy Spirit From Me.
• Psalm 51:11
No repentance causes a believer to fall away from salvation. We all sin however, it is the unrepentant sinner who looses their way to the narrow gate thus lost on the wide road of destruction. We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ of Nazareth but He can not advocate for those who do not do the will of the Father.
Blessings
I know many people who say they have, and usually these are of the extreme devout sort, many of whom were pastors who brought much fruit to bear over vast portions of their life. Its interesting, that despite that they will curse God and deny Jesus, that they still exhibit the love of ones neighbor and walk in righteousness, short of loving God, in many cases much more so than the rest of us. They will state unequivacally how they used to be a Christian. I think of one Baptist pastor I knew who probably led thousands to Christ over his 20+ years in ministry.
And then someone will come in and say, well they were never a believer to start with. Well, if my Baptist pastor friend was not a believer, I'd say there is no hope for the rest of us. You can't follow Jesus, bear fruit, and be as obedient and committed as he was unless one is born again. You cant be obedient to righteous living as these folks still are, and not have believed at one point in time. There appears no way one could consistently fake such a walk, albeit there is no way for us to truly know the heart of another.
Another pastor I know was a massive church builder over his life until early onset alzheimers forced an early retirement. He can no longer speak, nor does he recognize anyone, not even his wife of 50 years. He is no longer capable of believing much of anything, plus as his alzheimers progressed, he went from being a near saint, to mean and angry man.
So yes, these folks have fallen away... are they now unsaved? I would like to think God's grace has more than enough room for these folks, as if we are saved by even a tiny bit of faith as contrasted by works, the faith of these men was beyond compare at one point in time. Some scriptures can suggest they are saved, others will suggest they are not. I look at 1 Cor 3 where it talks about the refiners fire but even this is unclear.
I will add this. I lean towards OSAS in teaching because the devil has so many agents telling people to be (Carnal Christians)... IE Righteousness by the Flesh and deeds of our Flesh always on the mind, to take people’s minds off of the Hope we sinners forgiven have.
People fear they aren’t saved! They are being lied to by the Devil! Or, they are being lied to by people that the devil has deceived.
This above all reasons is why I’m short tempered at times with the pious, judgmental types, that burden salvation with anything past True Belief!
Yes, if they never actually knew God, but based their faith solely on what they had been taught about Him by others. Once you actually know someone and develop a relationship with them, you obviously cannot stop "believing in" that person.
Are you among those who deny we have been saved by grace through faith and that the Lord Himself is the author and finisher of our faith? This forum is full of them - in spite of what God clearly says about it.
The hardest part is humility and admission that it’s all Him that saves us.
If one is trying to please God and be acceptable to Him through doing good works, then there is no grace there to start off with, and so if there is no grace, there can be no falling away, because the person has never received grace in the first place.
Yes. We've seen it happen millions of times. Some people lose their faith because of events in their lives, some lost their faith due to the toxic christian environment they've lived in for so long that they are just fed up with it.
Can an unbeliever fall away from Satan if he does "too much" good works, but without accepting Jesus as his substitute?
If not, why do we think a believer can fall away from Jesus if he does "too much" bad works?
Romans 5:12-19 spell it out clearly.
Jesus seems pretty clear that His sheep will hear and follow. So if one is His sheep, they are always His sheep.
I agree that the Bible teaches that a believer can fall away from the faith (apostasy) or that a believer can die spiritually as a result of dying physically in unconfessed grievous sin (like hate, lying, and lusting, etc.), but 1 John 2:18-19 is not one of these passages. 1 John 2:18-19 is referring to gnostic believers that held to heretical views (Such as denying sin's existence - 1 John 1:8 (kind of like the Christian Scientist), and denying that Christ came in the flesh, i.e. a rejection of Christ's deity - 1 John 4:3 (like the Unitarian). They were never of the true body of believers to begin with even though they went out from the apostle's care of hearing God's message. These individuals were never saved or born again spiritually.
But this does not mean there are not other passages or verses that speak about how a believer can fall away. For...
Paul teaches that we can fall away from the faith:
- We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
- We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
- We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
- We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
- We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8) (Also see: Romans 8:13).
- We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
- We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
- We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
- We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
- Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).
Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:
Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalms 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts of the Apostles 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)
And here is a list of potential fallen believers:
The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)
Many think that if you have been saved at one point in time in the past, and you will always be saved. But the Bible teaches that...
We need to endure in our faith to continue to be saved:
"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:13-14).
"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).
"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." (Revelation 2:7).
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Revelation 3:5).
"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).
What is enduring (or overcoming) in the faith? It is being faithful or living holy by the power of God working in you. It is obedience to the Lord's commands, and not justifying grievous sin.
Anyways, I hope this helps, and may God bless you this fine day.
With loving kindness to you in Christ,
Sincerely,
Jason.
Yes, of course, as the Bible says.
By abandoning his faith in God.
Why do you think it is a strawman argument? If your once saved always saved then why not go out and live like the devil? As according to that view you cannot be lost right? But I am glad you believe otherwise brother. 1 JOHN 2:1-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10 is the test however.Just to put to rest any straw men and keep you from tilting at windmills - No one says otherwise.
Your response...LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Thanks for your thoughts brother. For me the scriptures in the OP are pretty clear that God's promises are conditonal on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in the "present tense".
This is confirmed in the Words of JESUS...
JOHN 8:31-36
[31],Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;
[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
[33], They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free?
[34], Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin.
[35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever.
[36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
We must CONTINUE BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD to the end to receive God's promises...
MATTHEW 24:12-14 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved. [14], And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come.
Salvation is from sin not to continue in sin *JOHN 8:31-36.
Not really brother. All that has been posted in JOHN 8:31-36, MATTHEW 24:12-14 and the scriptures of the OLD and NEW COVENANT in the OP is God's WORD. God's WORD is not my words. It is God's WORD not mine that says we can fall away from BELIEVEING and FOLLOWING God's WORD not me (see OP). Why do you feel that the scriptures provided are bad logic? Do you not believe them? Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow them. Our opinions do not really matter *ROMANS 3:4.As so many before you have done - you take a simple statement which tells us of some who obey the Lord and will be saved and illogically reason that others who do not obey in the same manner will therefore not be saved. That's simply bad logic brother. Therefore - there's really no need for further comment on those scriptures.
Your comment...LoveGodsWord said: I added the whole section of 2 PETER 2:1-22 that you have part quoted to add the CONTEXT to what is being discussed by PETER. Let's have a look at some key points you have discarded in your reply post from the scriptures which disagree with your post in the scriptures your responding from...
1. CONTEXT is how God did not spare the angels that sinned or the world that sinned before the flood, or Sodom and Gommorah stating that these are all EXAMPLES of those who will live UNGODLY lives; v4-6.
2. The Lord knows how to deliver the Godly from temptation to sin; v9
3. The UNRIGHTEOUS will receive their reward for living ungodly lives v9-14
4. These people had FORSAKEN the right way and went astray; v15
5 Some will DECEIVE those who know truth through the lust of the flesh to follow their ways; v 18-19.
Ok so the above is the main CONTEXT you have left out of your discussion that shows that there will be those who have FORSAKEN the truth that went astray (v15) to follow the flesh, Some of these will seek to lure those who were clean escaped from them who live in error (BELIEVERS) v18-19. Key point here is that this class had FORSAKEN they truth and are now triyng to lure those who are not following them to follow the ways of the flesh.
The rest really does not need any commentary as the context here is to those who once had the truth but choose to FORSAKE the truth...
[20], FOR IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN AND OVERCOME, THE LATTER END IS WORSE THEN THE BEGGINING.
[21], FOR IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEN NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIEVERED UNTO THEM.
[22], But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
According to the scriptures above brother PETER is talking about those who BELIEVED God's WORD as they ESCAPED the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the LORD JESUS CHRIST v20. We can then see in v21 That they had known the way of RIGHTEOUSNESS, they ESCAPED the POLLUTIONS of the WORLD...v 20-21. THEY KNEW the way of RIGHTEOUSNESS then TURNED AWAY from it v22.
Pretty clear what the scriptures are talking about here brother. No need to comment further.
God's WORD has only been posted. That is all I want to see. You post your own words. Thesw are not God's WORD. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow them *ROMANS 3:4It's interesting how you are able to see what you want to see in that passage and not what you don't want to see (what the Holy Spirit through Peter actually said).
As posted through the scriptures provided in 2 PETER 2:1-22. These scriptures are WARNINGS to BELIEVERS and show that we can FALL AWAY from the truth of God's WORD and no longer BELIEVE and FOLLOW it. These are God's WORDS brother not mine. What is it that you do not believe and why? The very scriptures you are quoting from are a WARNING from PETER to the BELIEVERS on FALLING AWAY from the truth of God's WORD...All of the "curses" in the passage are hurled at the false prophets and teachers who appear among God's people to tempt them. In contrast to those who the Lord will so judge - God assures us that He knows how to preserve His children - as He did in His examples of Noah and Lot. "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the Godly out of temptation". 2 Peter 2:9 Those who have believed have passed from death to life and will never again come into condemnation. He Who began a good work in them will complete it. As for me and mine (and it appears a great many others here as well who trust in the grace of God for their salvation) - I know Whom I have believed and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have entrusted to Him against the day of judgment. If you and a few others who have posted on this thread lack that faith - that'll be between you and the Lord to work on.
Interesting statement. For me I would say God's Word does not teach OSAS. If it did we could not fall away from the faith or need to endure temptation to end and there would be no need of temptation as we cannot be lost. In fact there is nothing stopping one that believes this way to go out and live like the devil. I am paraphrasing the scriptures above. I will post them in detail a little latter. Fear is a good thing brother. It is the beginning of wisdom that leads us to the goodness of God. There is only one true believe and that is God's WORD *ROMANS 3:4. Anything else is our own opinion and does not really matter. Thanks for sharing
God bless.
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