CAN A BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM GOD AND BECOME AN UNBELIEVER?

[Bible Highlighter]

I know what the word mean. If I’m separating sheep and goats, I don’t need to define them. I need to identify them. Sheep look and act like sheep. Goats look and act like goats.

The word "define" can be used as identify. I showed this according to the Dictionary.
It's the same meaning. If I describe what a dog is like, I am identifying what a dog is like. For if I give the definition of what a dog is like to a person who has never seen a dog, they could identify or connect the dots of what a dog is. Seeing the dog in reality would be even more confirmation of the definition. My definition of a dog would help them to identify in their mind what a dog is (even without seeing a dog).

 

[Hammster]

The word "define" can be used as identify. I showed this according to the Dictionary.
It's the same meaning. If I describe what a dog is like, I am identifying what a dog is like. For if I give the definition of what a dog is like to a person who has never seen a dog, they could identify or connect the dots of what a dog is. Seeing the dog in reality would be even more confirmation of the definition. My definition of a dog would help them to identify in their mind what a dog is (even without seeing a dog).

Okay. But in Matthew 25, Jesus doesn’t define sheep and goats. He separates them. Then He explains what they did. Their actions didn’t define them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Okay. But in Matthew 25, Jesus doesn’t define sheep and goats. He separates them. Then He explains what they did. Their actions didn’t define them.

How do you define a dog?
How do you identify a dog?
It is by the same means.

The same is true with defining or identifying sheep and goats according to the words of Jesus.

 

[Hammster]

How do you define a dog?
How do you identify a dog?
It is by the same means.

The same is true with defining or identifying sheep and goats according to the words of Jesus.

But a dog is a dog already. It isn’t a dog because of actions. It’s acts a certain way because it’s a dog.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But a dog is a dog already. It isn’t a dog because of actions. It’s acts a certain way because it’s a dog.

A dog can be defined or identified by it's actions, too. It is a part of being a dog.

Again, the dictionary says that the word "define" can be used as "to identify." So you are not arguing with me, but you arguing with the dictionary.

Here is another example:

Can not a person define the meaning behind a word?
Can not a person identify the meaning behind a word?

See, each of these two words can be used in the same sentence and mean the same thing.

 

[Yarddog]

Hi my brothers and sisters. Can a believer become an unbeliever? If so how? I believed we can all fall away from believing and following God's Word because this is what the scriptures teach...

Can you know God and fall away?

1 JOHN 2:18-19
[18], Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
[19], They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

What did they go out from? Yep you guessed it. They went out from the truth. The CONTEXT is that there is many antichrists and false teachers. They went out from the truth of God's Word and no longer belied and followed Gods' Word which made them not of us (Believers and followers of Gods' Word). If they contunued with us then then would be continuing to believe and follow the truth of God's Word and would have been of us. No longer believing God's Word they went out from us. If you no longer believe and follow the truth of God's Word to the end then you are no longer of us. The very scripture you supply disagrees with your interpretation of it showing that anyone can FALL AWAY from the truth and no longer BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD as shown in the very scriptures you quote or ignore...

HEBREWS 3:7-19
[7], Why (as the Holy Ghost said, To day if you will hear his voice, [8], Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[9], When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.[10], Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [11], So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
[12], TAKE HEED BRETHEREN LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.
[13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
[14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;
[15], While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
[16], For some, when they had heard, did provoke: however, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
[17], But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?
[18], And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, BUT TO THEM THAT BELIEVED NOT?
[19], So we see that they could not enter in BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the FALLING AWAY comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

2 THESSALONIANS 2:9-10
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 PETER 2:1-22
[1], But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privately shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
[2], And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
[3], And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.
[4], For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved to judgment;
[5], And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
[6], And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample to those that after should live ungodly;
[7], And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
[8], For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;
[9], The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust to the day of judgment to be punished:
[10], But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
[11], Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
[12], But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
[13], And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
[14], Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

[15], WHICH HAVE FORSAKEN THE RIGHT WAY, AND ARE GONE ASTRAY, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

[16], But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbade the madness of the prophet.
[17], These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
[18], For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
[19], While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
[20], FOR IT THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN AND OVERCOME, THE LATTER END IS WORSE THEN THE BEGGINING.
[21], FOR IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEN NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIEVERED UNTO THEM.
[22], But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Yep seems Peter thinks that you can know and follow God and then turn back from God to follow SIN and leave God....

links to....

HEBREWS 10:26-31
26, FOR IT WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
27, BUT A FEARFUL LOOKING FORWARD FOR OF JUDGEMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
28, He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29, OF HOW MUCH MORE SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
30, For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31, IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

GALATIANS 1:6
[6] I marvel that you are TURNING AWAY SO SOON from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, TO A DIFFERENT GOSPEL.

ACTS 20:28-31
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES AFTER THEMSELVES. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

HEBREWS 2:1-3
Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, LEST WE DRIFT AWAY. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him.

HEBREWS 10:35-38
[35], CAST NOT AWAY THEREFORE YOUR CONFIDENCE, which has great recompense of reward. [36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise. [37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], Now the just shall live by faith: BUT IF ANY MAN SHALL DRAW BACK, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Seems both PAUL and PETER agree together that you can KNOW GOd have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

ISAIAH 59:1-3
1, Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2, BUT YOUR INIQUITIES HAVE SEPARATED BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOD, AND YOUR SINS HAVE HID HIS FACE FROM YOU THAT HE WILL NOT HEAR.
3, For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with SIN; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue has muttered perverseness.

Seems Isaiah agrees with Peter and Paul that SIN can separate us from GOD.

EZEKIEL 3:17-21
[17], Son of man, I have made you a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
[18], When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand.
[19], Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
[20], AGAIN, WHEN A RIGHTEOUS MAN DOES TURN FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND COMMIT INIQUITY, AND I LAY A STUMBLING BLOCK BEFORE HIM, HE SHALL DIE IN HIS SIN, AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH HE HAS DONE SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED; but his blood I will require from your hand.
[21], Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also you have delivered your soul.

Well there we have it Ezekial, Isaiah Peter and Paul all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JOSHUA 23:11-13
[11], Take good heed therefore to yourselves, that you love the LORD your God.
[12], ELSE IF YOU IN ANY WISE GO BACK TO JOIN TO THE REMNANNT OF THESE NATIONS, EVEN THESE THAT REMAIN AMONG YOU AND SHALL MAKE MARRIAGES WITH THEM AND GO IN UNTO THEM AND THEY TO YOU:
[13], KNOW FOR A CERTAINTY THAT THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL NO MORE DRIVE OUT THESE NATIONS FROM BEFORE YOU.; but they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good land which the LORD your God has given you.

Now Joshua is joining Ezekial, Isaiah Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

NUMBERS 14:43
[43], For there the Amalekites and the Canaanites are facing you, and you shall fall by the sword. BECAUSE YOU HAVE TURNED BACK FROM FOLLOWING THE LORD, the Lord will not be with you.”

Now you can also add Moses to Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JAMES 5:19
[19], My brothers, IF ANY AMONG YOU WANDERS FROM THE TRUTH AND SOMEONE BRINGS HIM BACK, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Seems also James agrees with Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JEREMIAH 3:8-14
[8], And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
[9], And it came to pass through the lightness of her prostitution, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
[10], And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah has not turned to me with her whole heart, but feignedly, said the LORD.
[11], And the LORD said to me, The backsliding Israel has justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
[12], Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, RETURN FAITHLESS ISRAEL, declares the Lord. I will not look on you in anger, for I am merciful, declares the Lord; I will not be angry forever.
[13], Only acknowledge your iniquity, that you have transgressed against the LORD your God, and have scattered your ways to the strangers under every green tree, and you have not obeyed my voice, said the LORD.
[14], TURN O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, said the LORD; for I am married to you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion.

Looks like we can add Jeremaiah to James, Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JOEL 2:13
[13], And rend your hearts and not your garments. RETURN TO THE LORD YOUR GOD, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster.

LUKE 8:13
[13], They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.

Well here so far we have Joel, Jeremaiah, James, Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter, Luke and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and FALL AWAY back into SIN.

.................

What do you think can we fall away from believing and following God's WORD? If so how?

Thanks for sharing and God bless you all as you continue seeking JESUS through His WORD!

Yes, a believer can fall away, especially if they think they are being faithful but are following a false agenda. The early Church was filled with Jews who were trying to get believers to follow the Mosaic Law, which was really rejecting the blood of Jesus. This is why John called them anti-christs. Others followed heretical teachIngs, such as Arianism, Gnosticism, etc... Others turned away from Christ to embrace false gods or idols.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

The sheep are described by Jesus as those who help the poor (Matthew 25:34-40).
The goats are described by Jesus as those who did not help the poor (Matthew 25:41-46). The sheep are described by Jesus as those who follow Him (John 10:27).

Many today say that you can be a sheep and not obey Jesus because they say that grievous sin cannot separate you from the Lord. But this is not consistent with the words of Jesus. One has to help the poor to be a sheep (Matthew 25:34-40), and one has to follow Jesus to be His sheep (John 10:27).

 

[aiki]

JOHN 8:31-36
[31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YOU CONTINUE IN MY WORD , THEN ARE YOU MY DISCIPLES INDEED;
[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
[33], They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free?
[34], Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin.
[35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever.
[36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

Notice here that these promises are condtional on continuing to believe and follow God's Word; Those who continue in God's WORD have the promises of

1. KNOWING GOD'S TRUTH v32
2. FAITH IN THE TRUTH MAKING THEM FREE v32
3. FREEDOM IS FROM SIN NOT TO CONTINUE IN SIN v34-36

Well, hang on, now. What did Jesus say would be the consequence of continuing in his word? Discipleship. Those who continued in his teachings would be his disciples, that is, his followers and students. Did Jesus say that being his disciple was tantamount to being saved? No. It wouldn't be until after he had sacrificed himself on the cross of Calvary that salvation would be available to those to whom he was speaking in the passage above. So, the Jews who had believed he was the Messiah of prophecy and were following him as their Rabbi were not born-again people. This is why Jesus speaks to them only of discipleship, a thing common among the Jews, telling them what they already knew, which was that to continue in his teachings was to be his disciple. You see, a disciple of a Jewish rabbi in NT times would embark upon a life of radical emulation of his rabbi, speaking as the rabbi spoke, wearing the style of clothing of the rabbi, even walking as the rabbi walked, and so on. When Jesus spoke to the Jews who had believed in him of discipleship, it was something they understood very well, and they recognized in Jesus' words to them an invitation to enter into a student-rabbi relationship.

The rest of the passage where Jesus goes back and forth with the Jews about bondage and freedom is not a teaching about lost salvation but about the bondage into which sin brings every sinner and the freedom from that bondage that can be found in Christ. Jesus was not threatening lost salvation but pointing to who he would be as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."

Where is the scripture that says a born again christian cannot fall away from the faith and no longer believe and follow Gods Word?

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

What God began in saving a person He has promised He will bring to successful completion. Salvation is God's work, not ours. He draws a person to Christ (John 6:44), He gives faith to believe (Romans 12:3), He imparts repentance (2 Timothy 2:25), and He saves us (Romans 5:10). And what God has accomplished in us He does not leave to us to sustain but will Himself "complete it until the day of Jesus Christ." A genuinely born-again believer, then, cannot be unborn-again, a believer cannot lose salvation, because his salvation is not believer-dependent but God-dependent.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

God is perfectly faithful, not vacillating in His fidelity toward us, moving closer and withdrawing in tandem with our success or failure in obeying Him. No, God knows we aren't like Him, we aren't faithful as He is, and so He takes it upon Himself to sanctify us, and to preserve us blameless in Christ until the Last Day. In this He will remain constant, perfectly faithful, even when we are not. And so, we may be always confident in our salvation, knowing it rests upon a faithful God, not upon our own weak, ignorant, sin-prone powers.

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

This passage deflates entirely, I think, the notion that a person can hand back their salvation to God. "No one" encompasses everyone - including the believer who thinks he can return his own salvation to God. Salvation is a work of God. He initiates the process of salvation for every person who is saved. God doesn't wait on those "dead in trespasses and sins" and "alienated and enemies in their minds" toward Him to seek Him out for salvation. If He did, no one would ever be saved. No, in saving us, God acts quite contrary to our natural sinful inclination, initially acting entirely independently of what we want. And He continues to act toward us on this basis, regardless of what we might desire, refusing to let go of any He has adopted into His family. Thus, a genuinely born-again believer may be fully confident in the permanency of their salvation.

Hebrews 13:5
5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Here is another promise of God's enduring fidelity toward us. He will never - not ever - leave us nor forsake us. God does not break His promises.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Here Paul explicitly indicates that salvation is not a product of our good works. We are saved entirely independently of a righteous life. And this remains the truth even after we are saved. And so, a believer never has to fear that their sin will dissolve their salvation.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Again, Paul indicates that our salvation is in Christ, not in our works. And since Christ is eternally accepted by God, and we are in him by faith, we, too, are eternally "accepted in the Beloved." (Ephesians 1:6-7)

Titus 3:5-7
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Here, too, Paul repeats that our works have nothing to do with whether or not we are saved. And since they have nothing to do with being saved, they have nothing to do with remaining saved. Salvation is, as I said, God-dependent, not us-dependent.

 

[Hammster]

A dog can be defined or identified by it's actions, too. It is a part of being a dog.

Again, the dictionary says that the word "define" can be used as "to identify." So you are not arguing with me, but you arguing with the dictionary.

Here is another example:

Can not a person define the meaning behind a word?
Can not a person identify the meaning behind a word?

See, each of these two words can be used in the same sentence and mean the same thing.

Getting back to Matthew 25, Jesus separates the sheep and the goats. He doesn’t define them. He doesn’t say “these are sheep because they did xyz”. They did what they did because they were sheep.

 

[Hammster]

Many today say that you can be a sheep and not obey Jesus because they say that grievous sin cannot separate you from the Lord.

Whoever says that is in error. Sheep hear and follow.

 

[lsume]

Hi my brothers and sisters. Can a believer become an unbeliever? If so how? I believed we can all fall away from believing and following God's Word because this is what the scriptures teach...

Can you know God and fall away?

1 JOHN 2:18-19
[18], Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
[19], They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

What did they go out from? Yep you guessed it. They went out from the truth. The CONTEXT is that there is many antichrists and false teachers. They went out from the truth of God's Word and no longer belied and followed Gods' Word which made them not of us (Believers and followers of Gods' Word). If they contunued with us then then would be continuing to believe and follow the truth of God's Word and would have been of us. No longer believing God's Word they went out from us. If you no longer believe and follow the truth of God's Word to the end then you are no longer of us. The very scripture you supply disagrees with your interpretation of it showing that anyone can FALL AWAY from the truth and no longer BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD as shown in the very scriptures you quote or ignore...

HEBREWS 3:7-19
[7], Why (as the Holy Ghost said, To day if you will hear his voice, [8], Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[9], When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.[10], Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [11], So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
[12], TAKE HEED BRETHEREN LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.
[13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
[14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;
[15], While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
[16], For some, when they had heard, did provoke: however, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
[17], But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?
[18], And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, BUT TO THEM THAT BELIEVED NOT?
[19], So we see that they could not enter in BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the FALLING AWAY comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

2 THESSALONIANS 2:9-10
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 PETER 2:1-22
[1], But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privately shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
[2], And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
[3], And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.
[4], For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved to judgment;
[5], And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
[6], And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample to those that after should live ungodly;
[7], And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
[8], For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;
[9], The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust to the day of judgment to be punished:
[10], But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
[11], Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
[12], But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
[13], And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
[14], Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

[15], WHICH HAVE FORSAKEN THE RIGHT WAY, AND ARE GONE ASTRAY, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

[16], But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbade the madness of the prophet.
[17], These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
[18], For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
[19], While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
[20], FOR IT THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN AND OVERCOME, THE LATTER END IS WORSE THEN THE BEGGINING.
[21], FOR IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEN NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIEVERED UNTO THEM.
[22], But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Yep seems Peter thinks that you can know and follow God and then turn back from God to follow SIN and leave God....

links to....

HEBREWS 10:26-31
26, FOR IT WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
27, BUT A FEARFUL LOOKING FORWARD FOR OF JUDGEMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
28, He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29, OF HOW MUCH MORE SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
30, For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31, IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

GALATIANS 1:6
[6] I marvel that you are TURNING AWAY SO SOON from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, TO A DIFFERENT GOSPEL.

ACTS 20:28-31
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES AFTER THEMSELVES. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

HEBREWS 2:1-3
Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, LEST WE DRIFT AWAY. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him.

HEBREWS 10:35-38
[35], CAST NOT AWAY THEREFORE YOUR CONFIDENCE, which has great recompense of reward. [36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise. [37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], Now the just shall live by faith: BUT IF ANY MAN SHALL DRAW BACK, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Seems both PAUL and PETER agree together that you can KNOW GOd have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

ISAIAH 59:1-3
1, Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2, BUT YOUR INIQUITIES HAVE SEPARATED BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOD, AND YOUR SINS HAVE HID HIS FACE FROM YOU THAT HE WILL NOT HEAR.
3, For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with SIN; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue has muttered perverseness.

Seems Isaiah agrees with Peter and Paul that SIN can separate us from GOD.

EZEKIEL 3:17-21
[17], Son of man, I have made you a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
[18], When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand.
[19], Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
[20], AGAIN, WHEN A RIGHTEOUS MAN DOES TURN FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND COMMIT INIQUITY, AND I LAY A STUMBLING BLOCK BEFORE HIM, HE SHALL DIE IN HIS SIN, AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH HE HAS DONE SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED; but his blood I will require from your hand.
[21], Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also you have delivered your soul.

Well there we have it Ezekial, Isaiah Peter and Paul all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JOSHUA 23:11-13
[11], Take good heed therefore to yourselves, that you love the LORD your God.
[12], ELSE IF YOU IN ANY WISE GO BACK TO JOIN TO THE REMNANNT OF THESE NATIONS, EVEN THESE THAT REMAIN AMONG YOU AND SHALL MAKE MARRIAGES WITH THEM AND GO IN UNTO THEM AND THEY TO YOU:
[13], KNOW FOR A CERTAINTY THAT THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL NO MORE DRIVE OUT THESE NATIONS FROM BEFORE YOU.; but they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good land which the LORD your God has given you.

Now Joshua is joining Ezekial, Isaiah Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

NUMBERS 14:43
[43], For there the Amalekites and the Canaanites are facing you, and you shall fall by the sword. BECAUSE YOU HAVE TURNED BACK FROM FOLLOWING THE LORD, the Lord will not be with you.”

Now you can also add Moses to Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JAMES 5:19
[19], My brothers, IF ANY AMONG YOU WANDERS FROM THE TRUTH AND SOMEONE BRINGS HIM BACK, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Seems also James agrees with Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JEREMIAH 3:8-14
[8], And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
[9], And it came to pass through the lightness of her prostitution, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
[10], And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah has not turned to me with her whole heart, but feignedly, said the LORD.
[11], And the LORD said to me, The backsliding Israel has justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
[12], Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, RETURN FAITHLESS ISRAEL, declares the Lord. I will not look on you in anger, for I am merciful, declares the Lord; I will not be angry forever.
[13], Only acknowledge your iniquity, that you have transgressed against the LORD your God, and have scattered your ways to the strangers under every green tree, and you have not obeyed my voice, said the LORD.
[14], TURN O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, said the LORD; for I am married to you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion.

Looks like we can add Jeremaiah to James, Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JOEL 2:13
[13], And rend your hearts and not your garments. RETURN TO THE LORD YOUR GOD, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster.

LUKE 8:13
[13], They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.

Well here so far we have Joel, Jeremaiah, James, Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter, Luke and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and FALL AWAY back into SIN.

.................

What do you think can we fall away from believing and following God's WORD? If so how?

Thanks for sharing and God bless you all as you continue seeking JESUS through His WORD!

Matt.23

1. [15] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofoldmore the child of hell than yourselves.

I think this is happening now.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, hang on, now. What did Jesus say would be the consequence of continuing in his word? Discipleship. Those who continued in his teachings would be his disciples, that is, his followers and students. Did Jesus say that being his disciple was tantamount to being saved? No.

The same verse that talks about discipleship in Luke 14:26, is the same passage in Matthew 10:37-39. The thing is that Matthew 10:39 gives us a warning. It says he that shall find his life shall lose it, and he that shall lose his life for my sake shall find it. This is referring to salvation, because John 12:25 says, "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." Life eternal is salvation.

John 10:27 says that if we are his sheep we will follow Him and this is related to eternal life (See John 10:28-29). In fact, we can have the assurance that we know the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (See 1 John 2:3). But the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (See: 1 John 2:4).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

When you read Philippians 1:6, you also have to read Philippians 2:12 that says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

"Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Luke 13:24).

Hebrews 4:11 says, "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

What God began in saving a person He has promised He will bring to successful completion. Salvation is God's work, not ours.

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
Why are we told to work out our salvation if salvation is all the work of God?
How can two walk together unless they be agreed? (Amos 3:3).

He draws a person to Christ (John 6:44),

But this is not some forced drawing of the Father against our own will (if that is what you are suggesting). The context says that all who come to the Father are those have learned of the Father.

"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6:45).

He gives faith to believe (Romans 12:3),

Via His Word. This is not a scenario where God zaps a person to believe without the Bible (if that is what you are suggesting here). Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
Yes, I believe we cannot respond to the gospel message without the Lord convicting us of our sin, but that does not mean we are forced against our will to believe. We have a free will choice to either accept or reject the Lord under the time of God's drawings to see the truth in our life.

He imparts repentance (2 Timothy 2:25),

I believe this is saying that it is merely God giving a person the opportunity or opportunities to repent. For God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

and He saves us (Romans 5:10).

No doubt the Lord our God saves, but this would not be a forced salvation of some kind (if that is what you are suggesting).

And what God has accomplished in us He does not leave to us to sustain but will Himself "complete it until the day of Jesus Christ." A genuinely born-again believer, then, cannot be unborn-again, a believer cannot lose salvation, because his salvation is not believer-dependent but God-dependent.

It's not about becoming unborn. But people can die. So a person can die spiritually after being born again spiritually just as a person who is physically born can die physically.

 

[His student]

To all:
The sheep are described by Jesus as those who help the poor (Matthew 25:34-40).
The goats are described by Jesus as those who did not help the poor (Matthew 25:41-46). The sheep are described by Jesus as those who follow Him (John 10:27).
Many today say that you can be a sheep and not obey Jesus because they say that grievous sin cannot separate you from the Lord. But this is not consistent with the words of Jesus. One has to help the poor to be a sheep (Matthew 25:34-40), and one has to follow Jesus to be His sheep (John 10:27).

Three points on this:

1.) Jesus is dividing nations - not individuals. As much as many teach otherwise - no individual is saved by doing good works. This passage is not talking about individual salvation.

2.) Jesus says that some nations fed His brethren etc. and some did not.
He was speaking of the Jewish people and or Christians when He talked about people being cared for. It's pretty basic theology to understand that not all people who are in prison or who are hungry etc. are Jesus' brothers. Many of the poorest and hungriest people on earth are out and out enemies of God and subjects of His wrath - not His brothers.

3.) Jesus simply stated that the "sheep" nations had done good to His brothers. He also stated that the "goat" nations did not. He even seems to have "implied" that their fate was based on their actions. But it is not logical to say that all who do good are sheep or that all who do not are goats. That may well be true and likely is to some extent. But it does not follow logically from the passage itself.

Again, the obvious - we are talking about the fate of nations not individual salvation.

This is a similar illogical deduction as that of those who say that those who persevere will be saved logically demands that those who do not will not be saved.

I shouldn't have to give a class in logic here - even though it was one of my favorite subjects in college. But some of these supposed leaps of logic are like someone saying that all of the Navy Seals swam across the lake - therefore everyone who was not a Navy Seal drowned.

It may be true. But it is simply not a good logical deduction.

In the case of some of these deductions in this thread - they are simply not logical - let alone good systematic theology.

 

[aiki]

Anything that is against Christ is antichrist. The Greek word used here is ἀντίχριστος
antichristos which means against Christ of an opponent of the Messiah. If we no longer BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD then we are an "UNBELIEVER" and against Christ because we no longer BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD.

All of this is quite beside the points I made. John was not referring to people who once believed but then no longer did. Nothing in what he wrote in the passage in question suggests he thought the anti-christs within the Church were once genuinely born-again believers. That he refers to them only as anti-christs indicates he believed they were always anti-christs. And he confirms this in his comments about their departure from the Church.

What did they go out from? They went out from the truth.

As I already pointed out, this isn't what John says. See my last post. They went out from "us," that is, the fellowship of genuine believers, the Church, not from the truth.

The problem was not that they went out from fellowship with the BELIEVERS. The problem was that they became "UNBELIEVERS"

??? But John explicitly identifies that their going out was from "us." He was focused on the departure of the anti-christs from the Church, not the truth. And John never indicated that they were anything other than false converts. He offers nothing in the passage that would suggest he thought he was speaking of genuine believers who had left the faith.

It depends on what you mean by chosen people.

I mean it the way the Bible means it: a group of people specially chosen by God who lived under His theocratic rule, separated out from all other nations unto Him, bound to Him by covenant promise.

These are those that we are discussing now and that is all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD are God's children.

It may be who you're discussing but it wasn't who the OT people you cited were speaking of in the quotations from them that you gave. And I don't think all of God's children today are constituted only of those who believe and follow His word. Salvation is not a series of propositions or beliefs one accepts but a Person: Jesus Christ. (John 14:6; 1 John 5:11-13) Trusting in him, believing in him, is the way of salvation. He is salvation and being in him is the only way to become one of God's children.

Only those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the "present tense" are God's people.

This sounds like works-salvation which the Bible flatly denies. (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) Following God's word, or obedience to His commands, is the result of salvation, not the means of it.

Your forgetting those who rebelled against God in the wilderness who he cast off and destroyed from the very scriptures your quoting from *HEBREWS 3:9-19.

No, I'm not forgetting. Those who died in the wilderness were still cared for by God while they were in the wilderness. He did not cast them off as you say but provided for and protected them though they never entered into the Promised Land.

Also have a read of NUMBERS 11 through to 21 to which PAUL is referring.

I have read through the story many times. You might want to read the rest of the Book of Numbers that details how God kept His Chosen People while they remained outside of the Promised Land.

 

[aiki]

This one is a pretty easy one to cover. You have actually missed out on a lot that is in these few scriptures which are in the first few verses.

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Who are we talking about here; BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS? The question your considering is; were these BELIEVERS and Born again christians. Lets look at the key points in these that describe who there people were from the scriptures...

1. They were once enlightened; v4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; v4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; v4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; v5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5

So reviewing the CONTEXT of these scriptures we don't really need to say much they speak for themselves. These people were BELIEVERS that departed from GOD and became "UNBELIEVERS" returning back to a life of sin. These people are BELIEVERS as shown in the CONTEXT of v4-5 which continues...

Well, for reasons I already laid out, I don't agree - reasons you have not defeated in any way in these comments of yours above. You're entitled to your own view of Scripture, of course, but simply describing and explaining your view doesn't automatically defeat every other possible view. If you want to show that your view is correct and mine is not, more than repeating your view is required. You must actually show why my view fails which you haven't come close to doing.

Let's have a look at some key points you have discarded in your reply post from the scriptures which disagree with your post in the scriptures your responding from...

1. CONTEXT is how God did not spare the angels that sinned or the world that sinned before the flood, or Sodom and Gommorah stating that these are all EXAMPLES of those who will live UNGODLY lives; v4-6.
2. The Lord knows how to deliver the Godly from temptation to sin; v9
3. The UNRIGHTEOUS will receive their reward for living ungodly lives v9-14
4. These people had FORSAKEN the right way and went astray; v15
5 Some will DECEIVE those who know truth through the lust of the flesh to follow their ways; v 18-19.

Ok so the above is the main CONTEXT you have left out of your discussion that shows that there will be those who have FORSAKEN the truth that went astray (v15) to follow the flesh, Some of these will seek to lure those who were clean escaped from them who live in error (BELIEVERS) v18-19. Key point here is that this class had FORSAKEN they truth and are now triyng to lure those who are not following them to follow the ways of the flesh.

The context of Peter's words at the end of chapter 2 extends to the very first verses in the chapter which identify false teachers within the Church.

2 Peter 2:1-2
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.

Peter described the judgment that would fall upon these false teachers, explaining that if God did not spare in His judgments already fallen upon wickedness (the angelic rebellion in heaven, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Great Flood) He will not spare in His judgment upon these false teachers, either. Contextually, then, Peter does not cease throughout the chapter to have these false teachers in view.

2 Peter 2:9-14
9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you,
14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children.

Here Peter really goes after the false teachers, describing them in detail so that the believers to whom he wrote would not mistake them. Peter does not start his description above by saying that he was speaking of the saved who had become lost, however. No, he contrasts the godly with the "unjust" (or, the unrighteous), clearly distinguishing two types of people, not describing one person who was godly but is now unjust. And the unjust type of person he meant, in particular, was the false teacher he identified at the start of the chapter. Keeping, then, to the context supports my view quite well. Not so much your view, however...

 

[aiki]

Is that because you do not see the words "BORN AGAIN" written into the scriptures here? Who is the WARNING to from PAUL? It is to BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS? Of course PAULS WARNING is to BELIEVERS right? Is a BELIEVER (in the present tense) a BORN Again Christian or not?

Not everything written to believers is about believers.

Now notice the picture PAUL is painting to God's SHEEP (BELIEVERS). He states v29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES AFTER THEMSELVES. PAUL is painting the picture when he departs that there will be those arising seeking to destroy the FAITH of the BELIEVERS.

Acts 20:28-30
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

Paul did not say that from among the elders of the Church to which he was speaking that fellow believers or elders would rise up, speaking perverse things and drawing people after them. No, he uses the very generic word "men." Why is that? Well, I think it is because he was not regarding these "men" as of the faith but as false brethren, "wolves in sheeps' clothing." And they reveal the falseness of their faith by rising up and speaking perverse things. It doesn't sound to me, then, that Paul was saying anything in this passage that supports a saved-and-lost doctrine.

These scriptures tie in nicely with the ones we have already presented in 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-12 and MATTHEW 24:24. Sorry brother the point here in connection with 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-12; MATTHEW 24:24 and 2 PETER 2:1-22 is that these WARNINGS are to BELIEVERS.

So? Not all warnings to believer are necessarily about believers. You're guilty of non sequitur thinking here, it seems.

As shown above it looks like you have fallen prey to eisegesis or the misapplication of Scripture. Sorry brother God's WORD disagree with you. Only sent in love and as a help to you.

Uh, yeah...Well, you haven't shown any eisegesis on my part nor have you established that I have misapplied Scripture. I have, though, shown both things in your posts.

Oh, and it isn't that God's word disagrees with me but that your interpretation of His word disagrees with my own.

False doctrines, however well-intentioned, are still false doctrines.

 

[bcbsr]

1 JOHN 2:18-19
... for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:

Kind of contradicts your conclusion, don't you think?

 

[His student]

Any honest student of the scriptures will admit that there are scriptures that seem to lead to the conclusion that one can lose their salvation in some instances.

Some who feel that way make any loss of salvation seem to be quite easy and end up preaching what can only be considered a false gospel of “works”.

Conversely – any honest student of the scriptures must also acknowledge those scriptures which seem to lead to the conclusion that one cannot lose their salvation.

So – any honest theologian has to look at both sides of the argument and decide on which side the coin lands.

Every one of the scriptures that seem to teach loss of salvation can be and have been explained in a different way than undermining eternal security. Some are easier than others (as I have shown here in this thread) and some are admittedly much more difficult to “explain away”.

On the other hand – every one of the scriptures that seem to teach eternal security can only be taken one way. I.e. that one simply cannot thwart the plans of God, the author and finisher of our faith, by becoming lost. They can for a time seem not to be sons of God, as with the prodigal son for instance. But if you take the scriptures that teach eternal security at face value – it can only be a temporary condition.

So --- what’s a good theologian to do? Unless one has strong feelings on the matter vis a vis anti-OSAS -- any good systematic theologian has to come down on the side of the preponderance of the evidence. I.e. eternal security is a scriptural fact – like it or not.

Although I wouldn’t want to make a charge against any particular person who may feel different than I do – I simply have to say that many of those who are anti-OSAS are that way because they feel strongly about other doctrines such as election and other doctrines of grace. I.e. the two concepts seem to go hand in hand. If God is the one who authors our faith and keeps us from falling away – salvation is wholly of grace and not of works of any kind.

Again - agendas like that aren’t always the case IMO. But one would have to be as blind as a bat or participating in a different forum than this one to not see that the two concepts (eternal security and salvation by grace alone) are usually linked one to the other in the minds of those who created many of these anti-eternal security threads.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Of course God does not forsake those who are His Sheep. His Sheep are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD (present tense) those who are not BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God are not His Sheep because they do not hear His Voice or follow him. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

What often happens is that believers get the notion, through wrong teaching that they have to continue to be accepted of God and to please him by doing good works, but when they can't get to the standard required of them through that teaching, they get discouraged, disillusioned and give up on Christianity.

Paul warned the Galatians about that, when he said, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit through faith or the law (good works)? and, "How come when you started in the Spirit, you are trying to continue in the flesh?"

What Paul was saying was they were converted to Christ by faith (because his view of conversion including the receiving of the Holy Spirit), but they they were abandoning the Holy Spirit by trying to go on with doing good works in the flesh. Paul is saying a person has the Holy Spirit or doesn't have Him. This means that a person is converted to Christ by faith, or they are in the flesh and therefore unconverted. So, this implies that those who are trying to continue to please God by doing good works are no longer in the faith and have possibly abandoned their conversion to Christ.