CAN A BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM GOD AND BECOME AN UNBELIEVER?

[GodsGrace101]

It’s just a word I made up long ago to describe me theologically speaking. I was powerfully saved, and assumed it was forever, which would have had Calvinist acceptance. But then, because I was still sinning, the Armenians told me I lost it. This was very confusing, because both sides had scripture to support their opinion. I struggled with that until I found a teacher who taught about ‘The Third Salvation’. As you stated we are triune.
I agree that scripture makes a distinction between the spirit and the soul. I’ve already shared scriptural support for my POV concerning separate salvations.

1 Thes 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


I believe differently.
Matt 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.n

James 5:20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

You said you believe differently.
Is what you posted the teaching of a church?

Do you understand that these words were used interchnangably throughout the bible?
In the O.T. the soul was sometimes used to mean the body OR the spirit.

All this was clarified when theologians went through scripture and clarified the two ways:
Some churches believe in a dichotomy, but in that case they put the soul and spirit together.

Some churches (and thus theologians) believe in a trichotomy and thus separate the soul and spirit.

I believe the soul and spirit are divided,,,as I've stated.

This is the reason you were able to post those verses...but what can it mean to save the body, for instance in 1 thes 5:3 how can the body be presented blameless? Can the body make a decision not to sin?

This sounds a little gnostic, maybe.

No use in continuing if you have your beliefs ironed out...I just don't think any mainline church would agree with this.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you believe a branch “fellowships” with the Vine?

No, I don't use metaphors when describing the biblical concept of fellowship with the Lord. But I see that you seem stuck on metaphors, even though you don't understand them.

The branch is in a permanent relationship with the Vine.

How silly. Just ask any farmer how permanent the branches are to the trunk.

It that changes, and the branch becomes disconnected from the Vine then it will wither and be cast into the fire and burned.

So much for your "permanent relationship" idea.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Bearing fruit requires fellowship with the Lord. Apart from Him, we can do nothing.

The Greek word is koinonia, and means partnership, sharing. A good word to describe fellowship with the Lord. We share in His sufferings, and share in bearing fruit for Him.

FELLOWSHIP is a word that is not found in John 15:6.

The word is not found anywhere in your theology, in spite of the many times we find it in Scripture, in reference to God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[JLB777]

That’s the problem. You think scripture is a collection of verses. That’s why you quote one from here and one from there. No passages. No context.

Here is the whole chapter you referred to.


Could you point out the verse and it’s context that says God prevents or God will not allow Christians to sin in this passage you said teaches us this?



Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.
And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.
Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed.
Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.
For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12:1-29







JLB

 

[Hammster]

Here is the whole chapter you referred to.


Could you point out the verse and it’s context that says God prevents or God will not allow Christians to sin in this passage you said teaches us this?



Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.
And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.
Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed.
Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.
For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12:1-29







JLB

I’ll just post one verse so it will be easy to understand.

For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.

 

[Hillsage]

I addressed this in my previous post. Didn't you read it?

I went back to page 18 and you never said anything. So you may need to find whatever you wrote.

Please support this claim from Scripture.

Everything I post in RED is scripture. And you refuted none of it with scripture.

Uh, it seems I'm AS smart as the bishop, at least as far as 'salvation' is concerned. Did you also miss my explanation of the 3 tenses of salvation??

The bishop explained to the girl the progressive salvation from spirit to soul to body with those 'TENSES which you got right'. You just never applied them correctly by rightly dividing the scripture to meet with your undivided salvation of man, as the bishop did.

The 1st Century Greek speakers used "soul" to refer to the whole person. They didn't separate soul and spirit. Just as the expert bishop.

Prove that 'opinion'. I've already quoted 1Thess 5:23 which differs from your opinion. I'll add another now;

HEB 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

And FYI, "joints and marrow" would be BODY parts, so that really still supports three, spirit/soul/body IMO. And Hebrews was written in the 1st Century.

Nope. Not until you prove your "split" view from Scripture. Provide verses that deal with these supposed 2 salvations, one for soul and one for spirit.

You mean like I did in my #344 post quote below? A quote which you never dealt with from 'your' POV. But you now want me to answer your questions. You answer mine first. That's only fair.

Right, the salvation that pertains to your soul, not your spirit.

JAM 1:21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rank growth of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

Nothing there about accept Jesus as your savior, RIGHT? That's because this verse is written to CHRISTIANS who already had done that. And it's talking about saving your SOUL right?

Well, good for you. I'm neither of the 3. I'm a Biblicist. You're going to have to prove your "split" view about saving of both soul and spirit. That's a new one to me, and I've been reading through the NT monthly for over a decade.

I can only say that a Calmenian is a biblicist too. And a true 'Biblicist' would have dealt with my "Pig/dog" scriptures, at this point in my last post wouldn't he? You didn't BTW.

I started studying Spirit Soul Body salvation since about 1973. I've wore the covers off my first Strong's Greek Hebrew Concordance and more than one bible since those early years, trying be a Berean.

You also never dealt with my bible quote regarding the salvation of the soul by 'escaping defilements of the world' only to then be entangled again in them again. So tell me now what salvation did they lose in doing so?

 

[Hillsage]

Your last post was too long as are mine now. I'll answer another poster and then I'm packing for an 8 hour drive to Dallas tomorrow. You just keep having fun with your other two brothers here. And I'm just going to end our dialogue here, so no need for you to even respond IMO.

When God created Adam in "our image", what was Adam reflecting? The fact that just as God is Triune, He made Adam in that image. Adam was body, soul AND spirit. So, the warning about eating of the forbidden fruit, what actually and specifically DIED "on that day"? Adam's spirit. His body didn't. And the soul is the immaterial part of man that contains the intellect, emotions and personality.

Not my POV. "Image" is talking about substance or form not a triunity. When God created Adam, God didn't have a body or a soul. Even the verse you quoted below proves my position.

24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

When God created Adam the Father was spirit, the Word was spirit and the Holy Spirit was SPIRIT. God invented dirt and made a dead body out of that dirt. Then he breathed a spirit (God's image) into that dead flesh/body, and that dead man's brain started functioning and it sent signals to the muscles to start breathing. The OT definition of 'soul' being a 'breathing creature. IOW the soul is a 'functioning brain'.

Unbelievers cannot worship God. Their human spirit is DEAD. They are spiritually DEAD. That's why they need to be born AGAIN.

Bad biblicist POV I think...based upon scripture of course.

ACT 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul.

I believe it was the gospel Paul was preaching because the next verse says Lydia then got baptized. So there's my verse, now where's yours? Don't answer, I'm just teasing.

So, the words RE-generation and being born AGAIN refer specifically to the human spirit.

After Adam and the woman sinned, their human spirits DIED. They became spiritually DEAD and unable to worship God. That's why they hid when the Lord came to the Garden after they sinned.

Got a verse for that, I've never found one? Spirits can't die. That's like shooting Casper the ghost with your 357....sorry ain't gonna die. They just return to God from whence they came.

So, Adam was created trichotomous but became dichotomous when he sinned. So all of his progeny is born physically alive but spiritually DEAD. iow, they are born with a DEAD human spirit.

That's just bad orthodox teaching IMO. If your spirit died you'd be dead. When Jesus raised the little girl from the dead it was her SPIRIT that returned to resurrect her dead body.

JAM 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

But, at faith in Christ, the believer is said to be born AGAIN, or RE-generated. That refers specifically to the human spirit. What else could it be?

You're right BORN AGAIN....not RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD. That is the difference which your POV doesn't deal with and mine does.

btw, the Bible says the Holy Spirit indwells every believer. So, where, specifically, does He reside in us? The only rational answer is the RE-generated human spirit, where He functions when the believer is in fellowship and filled with the Spirit.

Class dismissed. I will address any questions.

You haven't answered mine yet. But that's OK these posts are too long and I'm admittely loosing interest here anyway.

I wasn't in 'your dismissed class' anyway. I was at one time....but that was decades ago. But I graduated and went looking for a level which answered the questions, which apparently haven't even asked yourself. Not so far as I can tell anyway.

 

[Hillsage]

You said you believe differently.
Is what you posted the teaching of a church?

How could I know. Do you know how many thousands of denominations there are?
The Facts and Stats on 33000 Denominations: World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition)

Do you know why there's so many? Because nobody agrees with anybody and they split, again and again and again. It's sad, and gives pause for one to soberly consider the following scripture.

LUK 18:8 I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?"

Do you understand that these words were used interchnangably throughout the bible?
In the O.T. the soul was sometimes used to mean the body OR the spirit.

Are you sure? Can you show me any where scripture does that?

All this was clarified when theologians went through scripture and clarified the two ways:
Some churches believe in a dichotomy, but in that case they put the soul and spirit together.

And that's why there is so much 'disunity' and the reason why you posted a desire for greater unity. The position I have does that. Calvinists and Armenianists....and biblicists have argued their differences for centuries, all to no avail.

Some churches (and thus theologians) believe in a trichotomy and thus separate the soul and spirit.

Yes they do. And yet I've heard sermons preached by those who do, and yet they flip flop in the sermon proving they have no working understanding of what one does compared to the other.

I believe the soul and spirit are divided,,,as I've stated.

As do I.

This is the reason you were able to post those verses...but what can it mean to save the body, for instance in 1 thes 5:3 how can the body be presented blameless? Can the body make a decision not to sin?

I believe tht the sin nature is in 'the flesh' which is what Paul said;

ROM 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.

But in understanding this verse in depth, we must realize that Paul is separating his 'body' eg Spirit, soul, flesh. Because we know that the 'spirit of Christ' dwells in every born again person. And Paul was born again when he wrote this verse.

And even Jesus had to fight the sin nature in His temptations to 'become' the perfect sacrifice for us.

ROM 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

He was born sinless, He was not born perfect. But Jesus never gave in to that sin nature.

HEB 5:8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

1PE 4:1 Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same thought, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,

No use in continuing if you have your beliefs ironed out...I just don't think any mainline church would agree with this.

Good reason to avoid 'the main line' IMO. But then I was born baptized raised wed and divorced in the "one, true, holy, catholic and apostolic church, whose roots went all the way back to Peter." And they were wrong for 1500 years right? Or are you a Roman Catholic? I'm not anymore. But then at 22 I got saved...for the first time... and now my roots go back to Jesus.

It's bed time....and 8 hours to Dallas tomorrow.

 

[JLB777]

I’ll just post one verse so it will be easy to understand.

For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.

Yes, it’s easy to understand that there is nothing here about the Lord preventing a person from sinning.


This shows He disciplines a person who has been disobedient.


Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, Hebrew 12:1


The author admonishes is to lay aside every sin that so easily ensnares us.


We ourselves must choose to do this, because God will not prevent, though He will encourage us to do this through chastening and through His word.



Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: Hebrews 12:14


If we don’t take heed to His word and chastening, then the end result is we will not see the Lord.


looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears. Hebrews 12:15-17



See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven,
Hebrews 12:25



Obviously the conclusion is we can indeed refuse Him who speaks, and end up turning away from Him, in which we’re are lost.





JLB

 

[Hammster]

Yes, it’s easy to understand that there is nothing here about the Lord preventing a person from sinning.


This shows He disciplines a person who has been disobedient.


Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, Hebrew 12:1


The author admonishes is to lay aside every sin that so easily ensnares us.


We ourselves must choose to do this, because God will not prevent, though He will encourage us to do this through chastening and through His word.



Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: Hebrews 12:14


If we don’t take heed to His word and chastening, then the end result is we will not see the Lord.


looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears. Hebrews 12:15-17



See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven,
Hebrews 12:25



Obviously the conclusion is we can indeed refuse Him who speaks, and end up turning away from Him, in which we’re are lost.





JLB

I think He’s a better Father than you give Him credit for.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I went back to page 18 and you never said anything. So you may need to find whatever you wrote.

Post #335 on page 17.

Everything I post in RED is scripture. And you refuted none of it with scripture.

I never refute Scripture. I refute what people claim about Scripture. See the difference?

The bishop explained to the girl the progressive salvation from spirit to soul to body with those 'TENSES which you got right'. You just never applied them correctly by rightly dividing the scripture to meet with your undivided salvation of man, as the bishop did.

Your opinion is noted. You STILL haven't proven your opinion about these different salvations from Scripture. All you've quoted is a bishop.

Prove that 'opinion'. I've already quoted 1Thess 5:23 which differs from your opinion.

OK, let's look at this verse.
"May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I love this verse. It proves that believers are trichotomous; body, soul and spirit.

What this verse doesn't do is support your opinion that there is a salvation of the soul and one of the spirit.

I'll add another now;

HEB 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Another verse I love. This verse proves the difference between soul and spirit. But again, this verse DOES NOT support your opinion about a salvation of the soul and one of the spirit.

And FYI, "joints and marrow" would be BODY parts, so that really still supports three, spirit/soul/body IMO. And Hebrews was written in the 1st Century.

Exactly. Which supports my explanation of believers being trichotomous and unbelievers being dichotomous.

You mean like I did in my #344 post quote below? A quote which you never dealt with from 'your' POV. But you now want me to answer your questions. You answer mine first. That's only fair.

Is this what you are referring to? I checked out that post and didn't find this:
"I can only say that a Calmenian is a biblicist too. And a true 'Biblicist' would have dealt with my "Pig/dog" scriptures, at this point in my last post wouldn't he? You didn't BTW."

This is what I did find:

But not so for the present progressive tense salvation of the soul. You can work out the sanctification/salvation of your soul going 4 steps forward in putting on the mind/soul of Christ. And then you can backslide 5 steps tomorrow and be like a dog returning to his vomit or a pig to his mire. But you know what? You'd still be a dog or a pig or whatever you were 'born as'. As for US we were born again as spirit children of God. And if we return to sin we are still children of Him, but our second state is worse than our first because we KNEW BETTER when they were walking in fellowship and therefore "abiding" in the life of Christ for here and now, having "saved them selves from the defilements of this present generation."

What you still fail to grasp is that 2 Pet 2 doesn't separate out salvation of the soul and spirit. Salvation certainly isn't about our bodies, since we will receive resurrection bodies. So salvation concerns the immaterial part of believers; soul and spirit.

You have failed to show from Scripture that both soul and spirit need salvation and that they are different.

I started studying Spirit Soul Body salvation since about 1973. I've wore the covers off my first Strong's Greek Hebrew Concordance and more than one bible since those early years, trying be a Berean.

Well, you have not succeeded in being a Berean.

You also never dealt with my bible quote regarding the salvation of the soul by 'escaping defilements of the world' only to then be entangled again in them again. So tell me now what salvation did they lose in doing so?

I already addressed this. In the 1st Century, the word for "soul" referred to the whole person.

Now, where is the verse that speaks of salvation of the spirit? That would be nonsense, since it is out human spirit that has been regenerated and does not need salvation.

The human spirit NEEDS to be regenerated. That is not salvation. It occurs at eh moment of faith in Christ, which is when the PERSON is described as SAVED.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think He’s a better Father than you give Him credit for.

Do you think that applying discipline ALWAYS results in improvement in behavior?

 

[Hammster]

Do you think that applying discipline ALWAYS results in improvement in behavior?

Yes, in time. His sheep hear His voice and follow.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, in time. His sheep hear His voice and follow.

OK, John 10:27.

Can you discern the difference between a policy statement and a factual statement?

 

[Hammster]

OK, John 10:27.

Can you discern the difference between a policy statement and a factual statement?

I’m not sure what you mean.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I’m not sure what you mean.

Do you understand what a policy statement means? Example: sign on the inside of bathroom door in a restaurant that says, "employees will wash their hands".

I'm sure you understand what a factual statement means. It is a statement of reality.

Now, apply this to John 10:27, since you quoted part of it.

 

[Hammster]

Do you understand what a policy statement means? Example: sign on the inside of bathroom door in a restaurant that says, "employees will wash their hands".

I'm sure you understand what a factual statement means. It is a statement of reality.

Now, apply this to John 10:27, since you quoted part of it.

On what basis would I apply that to John 10:27?

 

[GodsGrace101]

How could I know. Do you know how many thousands of denominations there are?
The Facts and Stats on 33000 Denominations: World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition)

Do you know why there's so many? Because nobody agrees with anybody and they split, again and again and again. It's sad, and gives pause for one to soberly consider the following scripture.

LUK 18:8 I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?"

Jesus will find faith in some small remnant, as usual. The problem is that He also taught this through Paul:

Ephesians 4:4
1 Corinthians 12:13

And Jesus said:
John 17:21

Are you sure? Can you show me any where scripture does that?

I learned this in a church setting...which is a good way to learn because churches have theologians that study these things. Of course, everything has to be backed up by scripture.

Instead of verses, which I would be very limited in posting since this requires a whole study,,,I'll post a couple of links. You should find them interesting...

The Soul and Spirit: Greek and Hebrew Word Studies

The Term “Soul” in The Old Testament | Standard Bearer

There's a lot more...

And that's why there is so much 'disunity' and the reason why you posted a desire for greater unity. The position I have does that. Calvinists and Armenianists....and biblicists have argued their differences for centuries, all to no avail.

Arminians and Calvinists are practically the same...so I don't know why they're always compared.

I like the Early Church Fathers. They were the closes to Jesus and the Apostles. 325 AD and before.

Yes they do. And yet I've heard sermons preached by those who do, and yet they flip flop in the sermon proving they have no working understanding of what one does compared to the other.

I honestly don't understand that. If a preacher preaches the trichotomy of man, that is what he will preach.

It's pretty easy.

I believe tht the sin nature is in 'the flesh' which is what Paul said;

ROM 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.

But in understanding this verse in depth, we must realize that Paul is separating his 'body' eg Spirit, soul, flesh. Because we know that the 'spirit of Christ' dwells in every born again person. And Paul was born again when he wrote this verse.

And even Jesus had to fight the sin nature in His temptations to 'become' the perfect sacrifice for us.

I have to tell you right now that I don't believe a person can understand the bible on their own.
There are persons that have studied the bible for many years that know it a lot better than we can.
We're still free to develop our own understanding of it.

For instance...what you say above sounds very much like gnosticism which is a heresy and has been condemned by every church.

The BODY does not sin,,,,
Our soul sins....
Our spirit AFFECTS the soul and causes it to be more in tune with God. Our spirit affects our emotions, our will, etc.

The body PERFORMS the sin,,,for instance if we steal,,it is our hand that does the stealing. But the hand doesn't sin...our soul does causing a dysfunction in our spirit in the rapport we have with God.

You really should study up on this.
The hand steals...but what makes it steal? Does it have a mind of it's own??

ROM 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

He was born sinless, He was not born perfect. But Jesus never gave in to that sin nature.

Jesus did not have a sin nature. That's like saying God has sin in Him.

The likeness of sinful flesh just means that he was in the flesh like us.

HEB 5:8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

1PE 4:1 Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same thought, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,

1 pETER 4:1
Problem: We've all suffered in the flesh.
Do we not sin anymore?

See. This is why the bible must be studied with someone that know theology more than WE do.

Good reason to avoid 'the main line' IMO. But then I was born baptized raised wed and divorced in the "one, true, holy, catholic and apostolic church, whose roots went all the way back to Peter." And they were wrong for 1500 years right? Or are you a Roman Catholic? I'm not anymore. But then at 22 I got saved...for the first time... and now my roots go back to Jesus.

It's bed time....and 8 hours to Dallas tomorrow.

I praise God that you got saved at 22. I was about 27/28 myself.

I love all my Christian brothers...In doctrine I'm Protestant, but I love my Catholic brothers also.

Try to find a good church and go study.
The catholic church has some good bible studies these days.
The Nazarene church is a good and pure church.
Assemblies of God is also very good. They depend a bit too much on the speaking in tongues gift, but their doctrine is solid.

 

[FreeGrace2]

On what basis would I apply that to John 10:27?

First, you didn't answer whether you can discern the difference between a policy statement and a factual statement. Can you?

Because, if you can't, you can't apply that knowledge to anything, much less John 10:27.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There's a lot more...

Arminians and Calvinists are practically the same...so I don't know why they're always compared.

And it seems you have a "lot more" to learn about them both. They are polar opposites.

It's pretty easy.

Not a bad attempt. But it needs a bit of correction.

The "conscience" was given by God to humanity, per Rom 2:14,15. But it is correct that the human spirit relates to God.

In fact, it was the human spirit that actually died "on that day" that Adam ate of the forbidden tree. His body sure didn't die, but something did, literally. It was his spirit, which was demonstrated by the fact that when the Lord took a stroll in the garden in the cool of the evening on "that day", what did Adam and the woman do? They hid. They were unable to relate to God.

So when the Bible speaks of being "born AGAIN" or RE-generation, it can only be referring to the human spirit.

The soul contains the untuition, conscience and intelligence, for normal human functioning.

So, God created man in His "own image", which speaks of man being trichotomous, just as God is Triune.

When Adam died spiritually on "that day", he became dichotomous; body and soul.

At faith in Christ, the believer becomes trichotomous; body, soul and spirit.

Jesus told the Samaritan woman this:
God is Spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” John 4:24

So, only believers can properly worship God. They have a human spirit.

 

[GodsGrace101]

And it seems you have a "lot more" to learn about them both. They are polar opposites.


Not a bad attempt. But it needs a bit of correction.

The "conscience" was given by God to humanity, per Rom 2:14,15. But it is correct that the human spirit relates to God.

In fact, it was the human spirit that actually died "on that day" that Adam ate of the forbidden tree. His body sure didn't die, but something did, literally. It was his spirit, which was demonstrated by the fact that when the Lord took a stroll in the garden in the cool of the evening on "that day", what did Adam and the woman do? They hid. They were unable to relate to God.

So when the Bible speaks of being "born AGAIN" or RE-generation, it can only be referring to the human spirit.

The soul contains the untuition, conscience and intelligence, for normal human functioning.

So, God created man in His "own image", which speaks of man being trichotomous, just as God is Triune.

When Adam died spiritually on "that day", he became dichotomous; body and soul.

At faith in Christ, the believer becomes trichotomous; body, soul and spirit.

Jesus told the Samaritan woman this:
God is Spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” John 4:24

So, only believers can properly worship God. They have a human spirit.

So you think man can trust his conscience?
That's fine with me....think what you may.

But it's wrong.