Came back to Christ (from passivity)

[Cassidy]

God's law supersedes governmental law.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 100% Thank you!!

And God's law on marriage is what Jesus said in Matt 19! That's God's law and it supersedes the government law! That's what I've been trying to say for ages now!

 

[Floatingaxe]

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 100% Thank you!!

And God's law on marriage is what Jesus said in Matt 19! That's God's law and it supersedes the government law! That's what I've been trying to say for ages now!

Please paste it. I believe you are misapplying it.

Every good Jew in Jesus' day knew there was a marriage ceremony to fulfill.

 

[Cassidy]

Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5and said,(H) 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and(I) the two shall become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two but one flesh.(J) What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

Here is the record of the very first marriage as ordained by God!

22And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made[h] into a woman and brought her to the man. 23Then the man said,

"This at last is(V) bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman,
because she was(W) taken out of Man."[i]
24(X) Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. 25And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

Next one....

16Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD and settled in the land of Nod,[f] east of Eden.
17Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch.

So how did Cain have a wife without the law telling him so?


There are a lot of instances where the man 'knew' their wives (slept) and they became one flesh. No law came between their covenant.

You said, yourself that the law was only recent...and after that the law was then added to come between a man and a women and their covenant before God.

 

[Floatingaxe]

God is the performer of marriages. He is the uniter.

But there is a decorum about it and He sanctions the fact that we must be above reproach and not sin sexually and so must marry in accordance with witnesses--- before the people to show that there is a consecration, a covenant witnessed.

Without a witnessed covenant agreement then a man could take any woman and do whatever he wishes.

All through the Old Testament the model of marriage was presented to us over and over again. Witnesses to covenant has been established for thousands of years. It is engrained into society in the nations with Judeo-Christian heritage.

We don't follow after the heathen who do things without God.

I was watching a television preacher this morning who said that a man and wman who live together without marriage are stealing from each other. The woman robs the man of the responsibility before God to take care of her as her protector and cover.

He is no cover if he is fornicating with a woman with which he is not living in a sanctioned, witnessed covenantal marriage!!!

You said, yourself that the law was only recent...and after that the law was then added to come between a man and a women and their covenant before God.

That wasn't me, was it?

 

[Nadiine]

God is the performer of marriages. He is the uniter.

But there is a decorum about it and He sanctions the fact that we must be above reproach and not sin sexually and so must marry in accordance with witnesses--- before the people to show that there is a consecration, a covenant witnessed.

Without a witnessed covenant agreement then a man could take any woman and do whatever he wishes.

All through the Old Testament the model of marriage was presented to us over and over again. Witnesses to covenant has been established for thousands of years. It is engrained into society in the nations with Judeo-Christian heritage.

We don't follow after the heathen who do things without God.

I was watching a television preacher this morning who said that a man and wman who live together without marriage are stealing from each other. The woman robs the man of the responsibility before God to take care of her as her protector and cover.

He is no cover if he is fornicating with a woman with which he is not living in a sanctioned, witnessed covenantal marriage!!!

That wasn't me, was it?

I've heard Dr. Laura comment on women who live with a boyfriend -
she said they're basically a free hooker for the male.

But I got a call from my girlfriend who just broke up with her live-in
boyfriend of a little over 2 years. He has a 7 year old daughter (about 5 when they first met) -
She's taken care of that little girl for over 2 yrs. & formed a relationship w/ her & is now leaving her life like the other girl he lived with prior to my girlfriend - the previous one lived with him about 3-4 yrs....

so he's had live in caretakers for his daughter while getting sex -
pretty convenient for him - then he's done with it. The natural mother is
a raging alcoholic w/ mental issues which is why he has full custody to begin with.
Imagine the abandonment issues for the little girl. She already shows signs
of being emotionally abused from this.

This is ALOT more harmful than people think when kids are involved in relationships (and they often are).

 

[Nadiine]

Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5and said,(H) 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and(I) the two shall become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two but one flesh.(J) What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

Here is the record of the very first marriage as ordained by God!

22And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made[h] into a woman and brought her to the man. 23Then the man said,

"This at last is(V) bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman,
because she was(W) taken out of Man."[i]
24(X) Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. 25And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

Next one....

16Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD and settled in the land of Nod,[f] east of Eden.
17Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch.

So how did Cain have a wife without the law telling him so?


There are a lot of instances where the man 'knew' their wives (slept) and they became one flesh. No law came between their covenant.

You said, yourself that the law was only recent...and after that the law was then added to come between a man and a women and their covenant before God.

God also allowed them to divorce for frivolous reasons - due to their rebellion & stubborness, but guess what? IT WAS STILL SIN.

Jesus also said in the verse you quoted above that to remarry after divorce for unlawful reason was ADULTERY - law didn't CHANGE any.
They were living in adultery & didn't know it.
(ergo the Sacrificial law God had impliments on "sins of ignorance". A sacrifice was regularly made to cover sins done without their knowledge. Adultery was one of them).

Jesus set the law straight to tell them it IS SIN - it still is today.

And, we're taught this:
Acts 17:30
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained.
He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

We are today living in a time of full knowledge - by the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin (John 16) and by revelation of Jesus Christ to mankind.

No excuses exist today and there are no loopholes
*(& people who SEEK loopholes are the ones who have the spiritual issues if they're looking to see how they can get by with their sins without guilt. I should know, when I was backslidden that's all I did was scour the Bible for ways out)
:o

 

[Cassidy]

God is the performer of marriages. He is the uniter.

That's right! Not the government!!!!

But there is a decorum about it and He sanctions the fact that we must be above reproach and not sin sexually and so must marry in accordance with witnesses--- before the people to show that there is a consecration, a covenant witnessed.

Show me where he commanded a witness when he performs a marriage? As far as I can see, Adam and Eve didn't have a witness other than God...nor did Cain and his wife. And neither did many others. Witnesses came about when celebrations and ceremonies came into it...which MAN brought in...NOT GOD!

Show me where when God ordained marriage that God needed the help of a witness to make it 'right' or 'real' or whatever?

Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5and said,(H) 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and(I) the two shall become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two but one flesh.(J) What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

No mention of any witnesses here! None!

Without a witnessed covenant agreement then a man could take any woman and do whatever he wishes.

I do believe that's exactly what Adam and Cain did.

All through the Old Testament the model of marriage was presented to us over and over again. Witnesses to covenant has been established for thousands of years. It is engrained into society in the nations with Judeo-Christian heritage.

That's right...man made laws and ways have been engrained into society. But if we're going to follow every model of everything in the old testament then there's going to be a lot of folks doing a lot of things that goes against God. I'd rather follow Christ's model! He was very clear in how he described marriage and it was the same as the very first marriage in history...Adam's and his Wife's. Or do you believe that Adam and eve fornicated because they didn't have the whole 'shebang' style wedding complete with witnesses and government mandates?

We don't follow after the heathen who do things without God.

No we don't! Not at all! We also don't follow man made traditions and cultures that goes against God either...or we shouldn't!

I was watching a television preacher this morning who said that a man and wman who live together without marriage are stealing from each other. The woman robs the man of the responsibility before God to take care of her as her protector and cover.

And I'd agree with him...as does God!

He is no cover if he is fornicating with a woman with which he is not living in a sanctioned, witnessed covenantal marriage!!!

Oh so the marriage only has to be witnessed in your eyes? (not God's cos he never commanded that)...What if I was to tell you taht my friend did have a someone who witnessed their covenanted promise between each other and even signed a declaration which they now proudly display on their wall? Would that suit you? Or are you still focused on man made laws and what they say?

That wasn't me, was it?

The first part yes...you said that it was only recent because of the immorality etc. I'd go back and post it but I'm too lazy sorry

 

[Cassidy]

God also allowed them to divorce for frivolous reasons - due to their rebellion & stubborness, but guess what? IT WAS STILL SIN.

What are you saying? That Adam and Eve sinned because God allowed them to get married outside of the 'law'? Then Jesus agreed with that sin?

I don't know what you are referring to here...I really don't sorry. I do know that God allowed divorce for stupid reasons but he still judged them for it. There is only one reason for divorce and that was due to adultery...God divorced Israel for the same thing (idolitry)

Jesus also said in the verse you quoted above that to remarry after divorce for unlawful reason was ADULTERY - law didn't CHANGE any.

You're right...but what's your point?

They were living in adultery & didn't know it.

Who were?

(ergo the Sacrificial law God had impliments on "sins of ignorance". A sacrifice was regularly made to cover sins done without their knowledge. Adultery was one of them).

Yeh that's good...I'm happy for them. I'm also happy that Christ is now that sacrifice - praise God.

Jesus set the law straight to tell them it IS SIN - it still is today.

What is sin? Adultery? Yes you're right it is

And, we're taught this:
Acts 17:30
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained.
He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

We are today living in a time of full knowledge - by the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin (John 16) and by revelation of Jesus Christ to mankind.

Huh huh..you're right...yep! Got it!

No excuses exist today and there are no loopholes
*(& people who SEEK loopholes are the ones who have the spiritual issues if they're looking to see how they can get by with their sins without guilt. I should know, when I was backslidden that's all I did was scour the Bible for ways out)
:o

Yeh...bet you didn't find any either

 

[Floatingaxe]

http://www.new-life.net/faq621.htm


"There is no commandment in the Bible telling a married couple that they have to have a marriage ceremony. That's because a "ceremony" is not the important thing from a Biblical perspective. A public "covenant" is the important thing.

The Bible says that marriage is a "covenant." Read Malachi 2:14. According to historical documents (like the Jewish Mishnah), a bride and bridegroom were taken to a rabbi. In the presence of witnesses a public document was recorded and signed by witnesses. (All covenants had witnesses.) This was a written covenant of marriage. Of course, marriage ceremonies were also a common practice - simply because the couple and the parents wanted everyone to celebrate the couples' marriage. You will remember that Jesus attend one of these Jewish marriage ceremonies (John 2:1-2).

The problem with commitments made to ONLY each other and God are that we are very sinful human beings. And as sinful human beings, we do not keep our commitments. We may intend to, but we "fall out of love" and we forget that Biblical love is commitment and sacrifice, not just a feeling. It is much easier to leave a relationship when there is no one to hold me accountable to my vows (another Biblical concept). Or I can simply deny that I ever took vows in the first place. The bottom line is this: in the cases of couples that aren't willing to make their vows in public - either one or both of the individuals doesn't want to make a lifetime commitment to this marriage. With divorce already being so easy in our society, this just makes walking out of the relationship that much easier when things get tough.

When I got married, I wanted to know that this person was committed to me even when they didn't "feel" in love with me, even when I'm sick, even when I'm poor, even when I'm mentally ill. That's the kind of love that Christ has for those who commit to Him and marriage is supposed to be a picture of Christ's love for His church (Ephesians 5:21ff).

So back to the original question: "Do I need a marriage ceremony?" No, but you and your partner do need a public covenant with witnesses. That is really the purpose of the Christian wedding "ceremony" - As the wedding ceremony says: to make a public covenant "before God and these witnesses."​

 

[Cassidy]

So back to the original question: "Do I need a marriage ceremony?" No, but you and your partner do need a public covenant with witnesses. That is really the purpose of the Christian wedding "ceremony" - As the wedding ceremony says: to make a public covenant "before God and these witnesses."​

Then my friend really isn't a sinner after all then.....just like she said she wasn't!

Can you show me where God commanded a witness please? I'm pretty sure the enathan would like to know that too...maybe if God really commands a witness for marriage (although Adam and Eve never had one) then I don't think that would be a problem at all to follow.

You're right in that without a public declaration then people can just come and go as they please...but you know...I learned a very hard lesson once.

My husband came and went as he pleased as well, in fact, although he didn't deny the vows he denied he even loved me at all....from the beginning!...a public ceremony nor a piece of paper registered by law was unable to stop him The second he became involved with that other women...was the second that covenant between him and I was broken and that is scriptural. No one was a witness while he was in her bed...but God was! He saw it all and set me free from that moment!

We were not even allowed to get a 'legal' divorce until we had been separated for 12 mths...but God still saw us as divorced...loooooong before I was even made aware of it!

 

[Floatingaxe]

A public covenant provides witnesses.

Your friend is kidding herself, not God, by neglecting entering a public marriage covenant. It is a shameful arrangement to enter into a fornicative relationship with a man without becoming his legitimate wife. For someone who claims to be born again, a person who does that is a clear and unfaithful hypocrite.

Matthew 24:45-51
“A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Cassidy]

I asked for scripture and I get judgement for my friend without scriptural backup.

You're also confusing me....

On one had you say that God is not subject to the law...but we are.

I tell you that laws have changed where they are recognising secular, non-religious marriages now.

Then you say God is not subject to the law....again for which I agree with you.

You drop the law subject...and go onto 'witnesses' being needed for God to seal the covenant between two people even though Christ never said it and there were examples where witnesses were not, in fact, present in the bible.

Then when I point out that my friend has done that (had a witness and even signed a declaration) and can I have a scriptural back up for when God actually commanded this...

You don't give me one and then judge my friend again even though she had a witness...just like you said!

I think you are flitting from one to another with no scripture back up to support what you are saying. It's confusing because I think you are starting to understand...but then can't get off old religious teachings, for a minute just to see what God actually says. And when I think you are about to...you go straight back into 'religion' and how sinful it is to go against religion.

I'm confused!

So I thank you for this debate, even though it is confusing in places, and I wish you well

 

[Floatingaxe]

The point is, we need to be married in the eyes of the law so that NO ONE can speak ill of us. No one. Playing little games is only going to bring trouble to them. Being a hypocrite will get you condemnation, which is the worst trouble of all.

The laws of the land are becoming lax due to secularism, but we as Christians don't have to follow suit. Legal marriage hasn't been cancelled!

 

[Cassidy]

*shakes head*...no scripture again. Thanks anyway

 

[Floatingaxe]

*shakes head*...no scripture again. Thanks anyway

Scripture tells us to obey the law, be responsible and live lives ABOVE REPROACH. Christians who fornicate and call it marriage are deluded and are deluding other weaker brethren. There's loads of scripture on that.

You cannot scripturally support your view. God isn't a schizophrenic.

 

[Cassidy]

Yes we are to obey the law...which now recognises common law and defacto as marriage...that's right! So according to scripture, obeying these laws is ok too...since the legal definition of marriage has changed.

However God's definition has NEVER EVER changed. I've shown you how God is not a schizo! People are allowed to get married the same way as Adam and Eve did because the government has pulled their nose out of God's business so we are free now to make it all about God...and not all about God AND state!

I think it's delusional to call people sinners when they are actually doing what God actually says in his word. I've shown you how Christ views marriage and how it mirrored the very first marriage in history. If you cannot see how a marriage between a man and a women with God as their witness can be righteous then you must have an issue with how Adam and Eve and various others got married before culture and/or the law got their hands on God's holy matrimony! How dare they! How dare they make a mockery of that which is perfect in God's eyes. And how dare us Christians...judged others based on this mockery!

I'm ashamed that I've been sucked into this religious rubbish all this time. I'm ashamed that I never even considered for one moment what God really thought about marriage! I've had to repent quite a few times for being sucked into the legal mockery of God's marriage! It was his idea...his provision and it should remain so! No government should stick their evil fingers into God's pie...and thankfully the governments of today are getting their fingers out!

I will not debate anymore with anyone who could support man's law over God's law! Sorry

 

[Floatingaxe]

Religious rubbish?

We don't follow the secularists. We follow God. We marry legally to be above reproach. To become polluted and watered down and lukewarm spiritually by following after the lost masses has eternal consequences for the Christian.

In my view, it is the nominal christian who is playing religious games by taking the low road into common law relationships. Low road, low road, low road!

I am happy in Christ that I have been legally married to aman of God for 33 years. I would never cheapen my husband's name or my reputation by shacking up with him. We want to give God our very best. Jesus was the guest of honour at our wedding.

Our children are legitimate, and have no cause for shame, having had set before them a Godly example.

 

[Nadiine]

*shakes head*...no scripture again. Thanks anyway

Scripture has been given - and what is a "wedding feast" Jesus speaks of with his bride if there's marriage/wedding??

Even our relation with Christ our "groom" is wedding metaphor -
this isn't shacking up - it's covenant.
We accept Christ and He accepts US upon judgment where we go to the great wedding feast.
It's a celebration of the bride joined with groom eternally.

Also, look at God's judgments on Israel for "adultery" when they went after other gods.
They went outside their covenant with God to worship false gods. (playing the harlot) etc.

COVENANT - that is marriage.
It isn't just living together without any future, having sex till you get bored of each other & the novelty wears off - & you can just pick up & leave the relationship.

Further, once you ARE married (ie. sex with others), that IS marriage in God's eyes - people should be alot more worried of living in adultery than fornication.
If you've had sex with another, they are your partner for life becuz of the sexual union you've created (becoming one flesh) -
so they're still in adultery.
Fornication & adultery are serious sin and will keep people outside God's kingdom.

 

[Nadiine]

Yes we are to obey the law...which now recognises common law and defacto as marriage...that's right! So according to scripture, obeying these laws is ok too...since the legal definition of marriage has changed.

However God's definition has NEVER EVER changed. I've shown you how God is not a schizo! People are allowed to get married the same way as Adam and Eve did because the government has pulled their nose out of God's business so we are free now to make it all about God...and not all about God AND state!

I think it's delusional to call people sinners when they are actually doing what God actually says in his word. I've shown you how Christ views marriage and how it mirrored the very first marriage in history. If you cannot see how a marriage between a man and a women with God as their witness can be righteous then you must have an issue with how Adam and Eve and various others got married before culture and/or the law got their hands on God's holy matrimony! How dare they! How dare they make a mockery of that which is perfect in God's eyes. And how dare us Christians...judged others based on this mockery!

I'm ashamed that I've been sucked into this religious rubbish all this time. I'm ashamed that I never even considered for one moment what God really thought about marriage! I've had to repent quite a few times for being sucked into the legal mockery of God's marriage! It was his idea...his provision and it should remain so! No government should stick their evil fingers into God's pie...and thankfully the governments of today are getting their fingers out!

I will not debate anymore with anyone who could support man's law over God's law! Sorry

It's clear that you need a teacher to teach you from the word of God.

Do you go to a church at all? Do you learn from qualified teachers of the Word of God?

I'd suggest you get proper teaching & shepherding than going to forums that are full of lay people, many just hold Christian icons yet I don't see truth of God coming from their posts,
Without a solid foundation, forums & other novices can ruin faith easily.

Some PROPER teachers of God's word are here along w/ a link to their
audio segments - you can find more audio topics from there.
I heavily suggest these 2 teachers of God's word.

Theologian RC Sproul, http://www.ligonier.org/rym.php
(Sproul is GREAT for teaching theology in understandable layman's terms)
Dr. David Hocking http://www.davidhocking.org/radio/
Hocking is Jewish also - I've had the pleasure of hearing him guest preach
at my previous church a few times - he's awesome.

Go to their audio series & listen to some good biblical teaching -

You better get proper teaching/foundation before asking people in forums who are not educated teachers (that includes myself).
I think it's pitiful that you base so much of your faith on what answers you get at CF from people you don't even know - THAT is scary to me that you put that much credibility into novices when there's a WEALTH of scholarly, educated teachers God has provided us with that you haven't even heard from on this topic.

 

[Cassidy]

Goodness me! A lot of assumptions are made in your posts. Please refrain from making assumptions about me and my walk...yoiu don't know me...nor do you know where I come from.