Came back to Christ (from passivity)

[Cassidy]

Maybe not to you, but once you were apprised of her situation, as a believer, you would have registered that it was not a God-honouring arrangement. If she is not a believer, then you cannot expect them to know right from wrong, or even do the right thing.

Well actually I didn't...that's the point but I can see how others might and so does she. That's why she uses discretion. It's nobody elses business what the legalities are.

But there is no telling how many eyebrows were ever raised at their arrangement over the years. Why? Because people know it is wrong.

People only THINK it is wrong. Eyebrows would only be raised if she gallavanted around the countryside spouting her business to all and sundry. She didnt' do that.

Plus, just because it is hidden and done in secret, doesn't negate its sinfulness.

She didn't hide it. Everyone just knew she was married because, in hers and God's eyes...she was. She even had a wedding ring and everything. She wasn't hiding anything because she wasn't ashamed because it wasn't a sin.

She only told me, because I was going through a divorce and having a hard time with people (pastors, church counsellors) telling me that my husband had broke the marriage covenant before the legal divorce....I could see the hypocracy in what they were saying and was sharing this with her.

 

[Cassidy]

Look I've explained why I thought that living together in a committed long term relationship was a marriage in mine and in God's eyes. I've explained how the laws have changed and that we are to follow the laws of man...the laws state that one doesn't have to be 'legally' married to live together and has provided 'common law' and defacto marriage as a way in which some can still be married outside the religion (Actually the common law marriage came about through those who were unable to get married in POW camps and the Af. American slaves who were unable to legally marry etc etc).

I've explained how God sees marriage and how Jesus himself sees marriage in Matt 19 at he never ever said anything about the legalities of marriage.

I've explained how believers actually believe that when someone commits adultery how that is considered a break of the marriage covenant in the eyes of God...and yet can't seem to fathom how a marriage covenant can be entered...the same way.

I've explained that there were ways in which God gave into the people and allowed such things as celebrations and ceremonies to commemorate their union. It was NEVER his idea...but theirs. His idea of marriage can be seen in the earlier in people like Adam and Eve and Cain and his wife etc...then later in Jesus' own words in Matt 19.

I explained how the appearance of evil can only appear evil if - #1 everyone knew about it and #2 the act was indeed evil.

I've explained how registering churches is legal and yet God still views us as the church outside of the organisational church. Spiritually! He likens marriage to the church also...so yes he MUST recognise marriages outside of the law in a spiritual sense also...otherwise he wouldn't say that those who commit adultery are breaking covenants! And it would also mean that he would be a hypocrite...and all Christians know that that's not he case at all!

I've explained how we cannot have it both ways. We can't insist that we are still part of the church (the body) outside of a church that has been registered legally by the government but then believe that you are not married outside of a marriage that has been registered legally by the government.

I've explained how you are NOT legally married until the marriage has been registered. So therefore...sex on the honymoon etc is sex outside of a legal marriage.

So...If people are still going to be blinded by religious beliefs and teachings over the centuries...that's fine! But please refrain from judging those who don't believe as you do and who really truly believe that what they are doing is right in the sight of God.

 

[eNathans]

So...If people are still going to be blinded by religious beliefs and teachings over the centuries...that's fine! But please refrain from judging those who don't believe as you do and who really truly believe that what they are doing is right in the sight of God.

Amen. Us Christians need to be humble and just learn to get along even when we think we're right and someone else is wrong, even if we feel "justified" in arguing we aren't always. I think we all have some common grounds here if we really think about it.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Look I've explained why I thought that living together in a committed long term relationship was a marriage in mine and in God's eyes. I've explained how the laws have changed and that we are to follow the laws of man...the laws state that one doesn't have to be 'legally' married to live together and has provided 'common law' and defacto marriage as a way in which some can still be married outside the religion (Actually the common law marriage came about through those who were unable to get married in POW camps and the Af. American slaves who were unable to legally marry etc etc).

I've explained how God sees marriage and how Jesus himself sees marriage in Matt 19 at he never ever said anything about the legalities of marriage.

I've explained how believers actually believe that when someone commits adultery how that is considered a break of the marriage covenant in the eyes of God...and yet can't seem to fathom how a marriage covenant can be entered...the same way.

I've explained that there were ways in which God gave into the people and allowed such things as celebrations and ceremonies to commemorate their union. It was NEVER his idea...but theirs. His idea of marriage can be seen in the earlier in people like Adam and Eve and Cain and his wife etc...then later in Jesus' own words in Matt 19.

I explained how the appearance of evil can only appear evil if - #1 everyone knew about it and #2 the act was indeed evil.

I've explained how registering churches is legal and yet God still views us as the church outside of the organisational church. Spiritually! He likens marriage to the church also...so yes he MUST recognise marriages outside of the law in a spiritual sense also...otherwise he wouldn't say that those who commit adultery are breaking covenants! And it would also mean that he would be a hypocrite...and all Christians know that that's not he case at all!

I've explained how we cannot have it both ways. We can't insist that we are still part of the church (the body) outside of a church that has been registered legally by the government but then believe that you are not married outside of a marriage that has been registered legally by the government.

I've explained how you are NOT legally married until the marriage has been registered. So therefore...sex on the honymoon etc is sex outside of a legal marriage.

So...If people are still going to be blinded by religious beliefs and teachings over the centuries...that's fine! But please refrain from judging those who don't believe as you do and who really truly believe that what they are doing is right in the sight of God.

You've "explained" a lot. But it isn't the truth. God doesn't feel about marriage the way you say.

Your friend used discretion because in her heart of hearts she knows it is wrong and she is hiding her hypocrisy.

 

[Wade Smith]

Amen. Us Christians need to be humble and just learn to get along even when we think we're right and someone else is wrong, even if we feel "justified" in arguing we aren't always. I think we all have some common grounds here if we really think about it.

I don't think so, friend. You are hell bent on doing whatever it is you want to do, regardless of what God's word or established christian traditions tell us. You do realize that even the Bible speaks about "tradition" in a good sense?

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

So...If people are still going to be blinded by religious beliefs and teachings over the centuries...that's fine! But please refrain from judging those who don't believe as you do and who really truly believe that what they are doing is right in the sight of God.

Doing what you believe is right, and doing what actually is right are two different things. See verses above.

 

[Cassidy]

You've "explained" a lot. But it isn't the truth. God doesn't feel about marriage the way you say.

Correction..YOU don't believe that God feels about marriage the way I say. Try not to put what you 'believe' about God onto someone else...they may have a different revelation to you from God.

Your friend used discretion because in her heart of hearts she knows it is wrong and she is hiding her hypocrisy.

Actually no...you don't know her. She used discretion because she knows that she could be a stumbling block to other believers who haven't yet come to the same understanding as she has. She knows in her heart it's not wrong - but she knows that others don't feel that way.

You don't know her...so therfore cannot judge her motives.

 

[Cassidy]

I don't think so, friend. You are hell bent on doing whatever it is you want to do, regardless of what God's word or established christian traditions tell us. You do realize that even the Bible speaks about "tradition" in a good sense?

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.




Doing what you believe is right, and doing what actually is right are two different things. See verses above.

I've seen the verses and find them irrelevant to the discussion actually. These people walk the tradition...according to what Jesus taught in Matt 19. Others walk man's tradition as by taught by the laws of old and men of the 'cloth'.

What I believe when it comes to 'marriage' is right in God's eyes. Read Matt 19 Jesus himself can back me up. You don't beleive me and that's ok...you are free to believe differently but you are NOT free to judge!

 

[Wade Smith]

you are NOT free to judge!

Actually, yes I am, the bible even commands me to make judgements, and as well to rebuke my neighbor when they are making a sinful choice, as we have already told you.

Leviticus 19:15
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

And there is actually a "Gift of the Spirit" called "Discerning(judging/knowing a difference) of spirits".

Leviticus 19:17
Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

"Rebuking your neighbour" requires that a judgement be made, else nobody would be able to follow this commandment.

Thus, once again, you show yourself to be a hedonist and simply trying to justify your own actions, or those of other hedonists, through a false representation and false application of Jesus' teachings.

 

[Cassidy]

But you're not judging with a righteous judgement you're judging from one who follows religious beliefs rather than God's. So therefore are in no position to judge.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Correction..YOU don't believe that God feels about marriage the way I say. Try not to put what you 'believe' about God onto someone else...they may have a different revelation to you from God.

No, I don't. I agree with what God says about marriage. The way HE says...

God NEVER gives opposing revelations about Himself. Your view is wrong and most likely coloured by your personal experience.

Actually no...you don't know her. She used discretion because she knows that she could be a stumbling block to other believers who haven't yet come to the same understanding as she has. She knows in her heart it's not wrong - but she knows that others don't feel that way.

You don't know her...so therfore cannot judge her motives.

Yes a hypocrite knows he/she will be a stumbling block if he is the least bit sensitive to God. Good job for her. I hope that the Lord will move on her to do the right thing, because she knows she is sinning against God by fornicating.

As far as judging. I am called as all Christians are, to judge between good and evil. Judging righteousness is a job we have to do almost every day. It's good training for Kingdom living when Jesus comes.

 

[eNathans]

Wade Smith, you do not know the hearts and minds of people. God loves everyone and He knows their hearts, motives and convictions more than man does. This is all me and Cassidy are saying when we say to not judge and condem others. Discernment is one thing, calling someone hell bent and so forth is another thing. Floatingaxe, my partner and I have been together over 4x longer than you and your supposed legal wife were when you first got married (after only 5 months). Wade Smith and Floatingaxe, I try over and over to just end this peacefully but you refuse to do so.

I am not asking for another response that will continue this futile argument. If you can't even agree that you, Cassidy and I have some common grounds in belief of our interpretation of marriage and fornication in the eyes of God -- even some common grounds -- I do not know what to do. You believe that by agreeing to reason together on common principles that God will judge you for comprimising Ultimate Truth, and therefore this conversation won't go anywhere unless people submit to your interpretations of scripture.

I'm prepared for you to quote me out of context and continue this, but I won't respond hereafter.

God Bless.

 

[Floatingaxe]

2 Thessalonians 3:14-15
Take note of those who refuse to obey what we say in this letter. Stay away from them so they will be ashamed. Don’t think of them as enemies, but warn them as you would a brother or sister.

 

[Cassidy]

As long as what they are in fact doing is disobedient...then I agree with 100%

 

[Cassidy]

No, I don't. I agree with what God says about marriage. The way HE says...

As do I....

We both believe fornication is wrong.
We both believe that adultery is wrong.
We both believe we must be obedient and respect the laws of the land
We both believe that if the law of the land stated that you're not married until it is legal...then we are to obey that.

The difference between you and I is that we don't agree with what those laws of the land actually are. That's where we differ.

God NEVER gives opposing revelations about Himself. Your view is wrong and most likely coloured by your personal experience.

You're right he won't. But sometimes he holds of on some revelation until they are ready to receive it.

Yes a hypocrite knows he/she will be a stumbling block if he is the least bit sensitive to God. Good job for her. I hope that the Lord will move on her to do the right thing, because she knows she is sinning against God by fornicating.

So you are judging her heart? You can't do that. She knows she's doing right...and she knows that even Christians who are doing right can be stumblin blocks to those who have not yet come to the knowledge of God in a particular subject. You are wrong in judging the heart of someone you do not know.

As far as judging. I am called as all Christians are, to judge between good and evil. Judging righteousness is a job we have to do almost every day. It's good training for Kingdom living when Jesus comes.

You are not called to judge hearts. And you cannot claim righteousness unless you are righeous and the bible says that no one can say that he is righteous...no not one! God is the only one...therefore he is the only righeous enough to judge! If you feel that she needs to be judged and you really believe that...then maybe leaving it up to God to do this is a good idea...what do you think?

 

[Floatingaxe]

I think a moron would know the difference between shacking up and a legitimate marriage.

 

[Cassidy]

I think a moron would know the difference between shacking up and a legitimate marriage.

Depends on what the laws are in that country. If the laws don't recognise it as marriage...then that's exactly what they are doing. But if the law does recognise it as marriage (secular..outside of religion) then they are following the laws of the land and doing right in the sight of God.

 

[Floatingaxe]

You're right he won't. But sometimes he holds of on some revelation until they are ready to receive it.

He doesn't oppose Himself. Read the Word.

So you are judging her heart? You can't do that. She knows she's doing right...and she knows that even Christians who are doing right can be stumblin blocks to those who have not yet come to the knowledge of God in a particular subject. You are wrong in judging the heart of someone you do not know.

She is NOT doing right. She is living a sinful lifestyle. She and her boyfriend could easily become a stumbling block. They haven't helped you understand righteousness by divulging their arrangement to you unrepentantly. so now there is another sin.

I have a right to judge what sin is. That is what we have to do before God every day.

You are not called to judge hearts. And you cannot claim righteousness unless you are righeous and the bible says that no one can say that he is righteous...no not one! God is the only one...therefore he is the only righeous enough to judge! If you feel that she needs to be judged and you really believe that...then maybe leaving it up to God to do this is a good idea...what do you think?

I am not judging anyone's heart. I am seeing sin and calling it out. You should be also.

Christians are in training to judge in the Kingdom. We had better learn now, because Jesus Christ will be depending on us to make perfect judgments in the Millennium and in the New Jerusalem. I aim to be good at it. We need to develop such an abhorrence fo0r sin as God does that it is easy to pick it out.

Compromise is one of the worst sins a Christian can make today. Relativism has crept into the church by the truckload.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Depends on what the laws are in that country. If the laws don't recognise it as marriage...then that's exactly what they are doing. But if the law does recognise it as marriage (secular..outside of religion) then they are following the laws of the land and doing right in the sight of God.

It does not depend on the nation's mores! It depends on the right-thinking that comes from being a child of the King!

A true Christian who is consecrated to Jesus Christ and cares about His perfect will in their lives and is desirous of knowing God's will, blessing and favour in his or her life will consult the Word (not to mention their godly leaders!) and know that merely shacking up is carnal and not God-honouring. To do so is as Jesus said, "kicking against the goads" or going against the grain!

A Christian will not do such a thing, if he or she wants to please God!

 

[Cassidy]

Ok well we've reached an impass. I've tried to point out where the disagreement lies...which is the interpretation of government law. That's where I think it is.

Other than that, I can't express any further. I can see that what you believe is of God..EXCEPT that one thing. We both agree that we must obey the laws of the land but you can't seem to see that the law has allowed it so that we can actually have the marriage that God has aways intended since Adam and Eve.

Man has perversed this beautiful union by adding 'laws' that we must obey - according to scripture. But those laws are changing now and I praise God for that. I really do.

There's not much more I can say on the subject. I wish enathan well and pray that, if he, is in fact in the wrong that God will show him...I'm pretty sure he is quite capable of doing that without the help of people on a forum...including myself admittedly!

 

[Floatingaxe]

God's law supersedes governmental law. It is even written on our hearts. How does it get missed? Compromise and unbelief.