Calvinist Robots

[drstevej]

Is that the same Dr. Johnson that was a pastor at a Louisiana State University Chapel?

No. S Lewis Johnson was pastor of Believer's Chapel in Dallas and NT professor at Dallas Seminary.

I, on the other hand, am a pastor at the Chapel at LSU.

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

No. S Lewis Johnson was pastor of Believer's Chapel in Dallas and NT professor at Dallas Seminary.

I, on the other hand, am a pastor at the Chapel at LSU.

Was he one of your professors?

 

[drstevej]

Was he one of your professors?

Yes, I had him for several courses and have listened to hundreds of his tapes.

 

[Thekla]

Here is a great article by Dr. S. Lewis Johnson. I think it explains it quite well.

Steve

thank-you

In the second page, I see one possible difference:

the EO (and at least the Rabbis who edited my copy of the OT) understand the 'prohibition' given by God as a means for Adam's spiritual growth (like making Abraham wander around for years). This is why in Genesis it said we are created (sorry to repeat in thread) "in the image toward the likeness". The image is just given, the likeness requires growth. Adam never made it to "likeness".

I'll keep reading, but this article again posits the spiritual as arising from matter. We do inherit mortality, but how can we inherit the spiritual from the physical ? Our bodies are not the whole person, and the body (material) can be told "no" by the mind/heart.

 

[Rick Otto]

Well, first though, how is his sin imputed to us /

If you would agree that imputation follow a predictable pattern, I would venture that it is imputed following that same pattern that righteousness is imputed to us. I think Paul asserts the same:

1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. The process of imputation is the same, but as Eph1:4 points out, not all who were in Adam (all humanity except Eve) were mercifuly predestined elect - placed in Christ.

Same process of imputation, but of different things to different people.


So basicaly it is by arbitration:
Ro 9:15 - For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Ro 9:16 - So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ro 9:18 - Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

[Thekla]

Oh my !!!!!!!!

on page three, he says God threatened Adam.

In contrast to this, the EO notes that God warned Adam of the consequences !
There is a profound difference in a Father threatening and warning !

 

[Rick Otto]

how can we inherit the spiritual from the physical

We don't. We inherit relationship problems.
The physical problems are symptoms. The problem is the spiritual relationship.

 

[Rick Otto]

Oh my !!!!!!!!

on page three, he says God threatened Adam.

In contrast to this, the EO notes that God warned Adam of the consequences !
There is a profound difference in a Father threatening and warning !

Or not, depending on cultural orientation & emotional content.

 

[&Abel]

We cannot know about another with certainty but the Bible tells us how to distinguish believers...the Fruit of the Spirit is a start.

Solomon was overflowing with fruits

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Solomon was overflowing with fruits

And lotz of wisdom too

Matt 12:42 "A Queen of the south shall be being aroused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, this, and shall be condemning it/her. That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold! more of Solomon here!"

 

[Thekla]

If you would agree that imputation follow a predictable pattern, I would venture that it is imputed following that same pattern that righteousness is imputed to us. I think Paul asserts the same:

1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. The process of imputation is the same, but as Eph1:4 points out, not all who were in Adam (all humanity except Eve) were mercifuly predestined elect - placed in Christ.

Same process of imputation, but of different things to different people.

but this doesn't explain how the spiritual arises from matter !
Or what happened to the image, or the matter of the likeness.

So basicaly it is by arbitration:
Ro 9:15 - For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Ro 9:16 - So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ro 9:18 - Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Of course we cannot will our salvation, or a return to our first condition which included the absence of mortality ! This is a matter of God's mercy evidenced in Christ - His entire course on earth (Incarnation, to stoop down to us and be with us), His voluntary crucifixion (the love of God is unlike fallen human love/self-serving and/or equality), and Resurrection.

 

[Thekla]

We don't. We inherit relationship problems.
The physical problems are symptoms. The problem is the spiritual relationship.

Maybe a partial agreement

Our relationship problems (to God, others and self) were the consequences of the fall and the covering of the image of God. BUT they are not ineluctable (that word again).
Further, if the image were completely destroyed/inactive, where does the conscience come from ?

Anyway, Adam had a relationship problem before he fell - he chose Eve's suggestion over God's prohibition.
He was not yet 'in the likeness'.
So, does the image of God include a relationship problem ?

 

[&Abel]

His relationship to God was severed and the garden was closed up. His children did not have that same relationship with God.

Enoch(7 generations after Adam) was so close to god he was brought into heaven on multiple occasions and did not have to experience death

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

Yes, I had him for several courses and have listened to hundreds of his tapes.

What's a "tape"

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Thekla; how are we totally depraved ????

We have no spiritual life in us. We are souls who feel the loss, but of what we aren't sure so we try to compensate & distract ourselves with religious activity. Religion is a substitute for spiritual relationship.

if we have no image, we have no will and are just animals
are animals totally depraved ?

Obviously we have wills. Even animals have wills & emotions and perform self-sacrificial acts that are moral in the sense of natural law.
It isn't that we don't have the image, it's that the image has recieved a mortal blow, requiring rebirth.

anyway, there is no "original sin" in the EO (or the first few centuries) so I'm thinking thats why this discussion is so confusing to me ...

It's that intoxicating Eastern air you EOs breathe.
It's full of Mystery.

 

[drstevej]

What's a "tape"

cassette tapes.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What's a "tape"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape

Tape refers to a strip of long, thin and narrow matter, usually rolled up. Most commonly, it refers to:

Recording media

 

[Thekla]

cassette tapes.

least its not 8-Track
I'm all out of replacement capstans

 

[&Abel]

And lotz of wisdom too

Matt 12:42 "A Queen of the south shall be being aroused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, this, and shall be condemning it/her. That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold! more of Solomon here!"

solomon actually has a lot in common with Lucifer

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Thekla; Our relationship problems (to God, others and self) were the consequences of the fall and the covering of the image of God. BUT they are not ineluctable (that word again).

Refresh me what it means & how you're usin' it, sis.

Further, if the image were completely destroyed/inactive, where does the conscience come from ?

"Social conscience" is the term I think that describes the result of Providential restraint of sin & evil in communities starting with the most basic one, the family.

But I too believe that one's intuition & conscience are the primary interface between our conscious selves & The Holy Spirit.

Anyway, Adam had a relationship problem before he fell - he chose Eve's suggestion over God's prohibition.

Yeah, but go easy on him. You women can be persuasively suggestive in the extreme without consciously intending to be.

He was not yet 'in the likeness'.

Ahhhhh.... it's always something, but I don't think it was that.
You might be forcing a purist definition on "likeness". It at least sounds like you'd be happier if the scriptures used the adjective "perfect" (likeness) with guaranteed warranties & 1-800 numbers tatooed above each belly button.

So, does the image of God include a relationship problem ?

One man's problem is another's exciting challenge.