Calvinist Robots

[_visionary_]

Thats why I say free will beings is something you find in a secular society not a religios one, unless that god is more human than god.

 

[_visionary_]

so does the calvinist hold to the belief that god rips branches off his tree and then sticks them back on for fun?

or is it due to the actions of the men themselves?

I think the answer is obvious

I have no idea what Calvinists believe, or very little. I never really bothered reading anything from Calvin. What I do know is that God exists outside of human morallity. And in that confounds us all.

 

[&Abel]

Yes it is in science, maths, law, logic and politics. If I employ someone that has threatened to kill my entire family as a cleaner in my house I full intended that sin. If I created that individual knowing he would do that I fully intedend that sin. To create, allow, permit, intend...



free will vs. predestination has some shine to it, becase it raises a point of morallity... apply that kind of morality to omniscience and omnipresence and we have a problem.



And yet he created us. So he must've wanted us to do whatever we did. Its logically incoherant to see it any other way unless you declare moral bankrupsy. "I don't know if we have free will or not or if God knows everything or created everything."

this is far beyond science

to a create a freewill being means you give up a certain level of control

I believe god put the creation into action knowing what would happen and yet he didn't want it to go the way it did

I realize this is difficult to understand

its something that goes beyond human understandings of creation

 

[&Abel]

I have no idea what Calvinists believe, or very little. I never really bothered reading anything from Calvin. What I do know is that God exists outside of human morallity. And in that confounds us all.

to a certain degree he does(though the goodness in our morality is based on his perfect morality)

 

[squint]

this is far beyond science

to a create a freewill being means you give up a certain level of control

I believe god put the creation into action knowing what would happen and yet he didn't want it to go the way it did

I realize this is difficult to understand

its something that goes beyond human understandings of creation

Ah, the mystery wand makes another appearance. Waive it over any construct that may seem senseless, and voila...it is justified by terming it A MYSTERY.

Tell me Abel, when did SATAN stop stealing The Word from your heart? And be careful how you answer. You may reveal that he never did stop and THEN you'd actually have to admit the presence of another entity IN YOUR HEART that is not YOU.

And then that mystery wand will have to again make its' appearance to show how your mind and heart are free, even with that thief trying to steal from your mind and heart simultaneously.

Make it interesting, please.

enjoy!

squint

 

[chestertonrules]

"We believe that the Church is necessary for salvation, because Christ, who is the sole mediator and way of salvation, renders Himself present for us in His body which is the Church.[33] But the divine design of salvation embraces all men, and those who without fault on their part do not know the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but seek God sincerely, and under the influence of grace endeavor to do His will as recognized through the promptings of their conscience, they, in a number known only to God, can obtain salvation."

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06cr.htm


By all means PLEASE stop misrepresenting the 'organization' you PURPORT to belong to and KNOW....

And do NOT call me a liar if the CHARGES are not TRUE.

I know my RCC dogma fairly well.

enjoy!

squint

I now see that you know your statements about my beliefs were false.

There is no more accurate way to describe it.

Changing subjects and posting irrelevant quotes won't soothe your conscience.

 

[chestertonrules]

Quit weaseling. Hated, Chez,... he was hated by the God you insist loves every single individual man.

[/quote]


Feel free to educate yourself:

Rom 9:10-13
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her (Rebecca), The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.​

This is not a even a scripture about God hating a sinner. According to the Bible, God had made a decision about Esau, and Jacob without them "having done any good or evil."

Within these scriptures we begin to see clues about what God really means by "hating Esau." Obviously God is using "linguistic hyperbole" to illustrate His choice before either son had been born, before either had done good or evil. Hi choice was not based on that criteria. God made a choice, and by action, He loved Jacob (by choosing him) and hated Esau (by not choosing him). This verse has nothing to do with lustful human hatred from a deeply wicked heart.

What the same theologians fail to mention when they refer to God's "hate" toward Esau is the whole story. They will always fail to mention that, when their point is to illustrate an emotionally hate-filled God.

But we will not fail to do that here. Instead, let us see the whole situation through. First, it begins with God's "love" toward Jacob and "hate" toward Esau manifested at the proper time:

Gen 25:29-34
One day, Jacob was cooking some stew, when Esau came home hungry and said, "I'm starving to death! Give me some of that red stew right now!" That's how Esau got the name "Edom." Jacob replied, "Sell me your rights as the first-born son." "I'm about to die," Esau answered. "What good will those rights do me?" But Jacob said, "Promise me your birthrights, here and now!" And that's what Esau did. Jacob then gave Esau some bread and some of the bean stew, and when Esau had finished eating and drinking, he just got up and left, showing how little he thought of his rights as the first-born.​

Bingo! Prophecy fulfilled. Esau probably had no idea that he was making a choice to fulfill God's will. He probably just thought he was making a choice to fill his stomach. Nevertheless, he sold his birthright. Let's go back to the end of that last line. Here is how the King James Version rendered it:

Gen 25:34
Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentils; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright. ​

Esau hated his birthright. Or, did he? If Esau despised his birthright, he had a funny way of showing it when he went to his father. Esau said, "My brother deserves the name Jacob, because he has already cheated me twice. The first time he cheated me out of my rights as the first-born son, and now he has cheated me out of my blessing." Then Esau asked his father, "Don't you still have any blessing left for me?" (Gen 27:36)

Does that sound like a man who emotionally hated his own birthright? If Esau emotionally despised his birthright, he sure has a strange way of showing that by grieving for it and sorely wanting it. The fact is, Esau did hate his birthright...in the sense that he chose Jacob's stew over it. It had nothing to do with emotion.

Clearly, God "loved" Jacob and "hated" Esau and we just witnessed how. But, let us keep on with these two. Let's not give up on them too soon. Jacob stole Esau's rights and blessing. Then he ran far away, because Esau, in his human way, was angry with Jacob and swore to kill him. Time passed. One day though, the Lord said to Jacob:"Jacob, go back to your relatives in the land of your ancestors, and I will bless you." (Gen 31:3)

Esau, having been tipped off, amassed troops and waited to strike and kill Jacob

Watch what happened:

Gen 33:1-12
Later that day Jacob met Esau coming with his four hundred men. So Jacob had his children walk with their mothers.
The two servant women, Zilpah and Bilhah, together with their children went first, followed by Leah and her children, then by Rachel and Joseph.

Jacob himself walked in front of them all, bowing to the ground seven times as he came near his brother. But Esau ran toward Jacob and hugged and kissed him. Then the two brothers started crying. When Esau noticed the women and children he asked, "Whose children are these?" Jacob answered, "These are the ones the LORD has been kind enough to give to me, your servant."

Then the two servant women and their children came and bowed down to Esau. Next, Leah and her children came and bowed down; finally, Joseph and Rachel also came and bowed down. Esau asked Jacob, "What did you mean by these herds I met along the road?""Master," Jacob answered, "I sent them so that you would be friendly to me."
"But, brother, I already have plenty," Esau replied. "Keep them for yourself."

"No!" Jacob said. "Please accept these gifts as a sign of your friendship for me. When you welcomed me and I saw your face, it was like seeing the face of God. Please accept these gifts I brought to you. God has been good to me, and I have everything I need." Jacob kept insisting until Esau accepted the gifts. "Let's get ready to travel," Esau said. "I'll go along with you."

Remember friends. God hated Esau. God HATED him. God had a passionate gut wrenching emotional revulsion for Esau, right? In fact, God hated Esau so much, He sent Jacob back to him, promising Jacob a blessing. And what a blessing Jacob received: HE BOWED TO ESAU SEVEN TIMES AND WAS REUNITED WITH HIM. That's quite an interesting hatred God has.

God is nothing like you and me. His ways are not your ways, but are higher than your ways. His thoughts are not like your thoughts, but are higher. Even his so-called "hate" is "love" compared to your weak human emotional hatred you show your enemies. Do you see how easy it is for God to melt the human heart with His "hatred?"
http://www.mercifultruth.com/doesgodhate.html

 

[&Abel]

Feel free to educate yourself:

Rom 9:10-13
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her (Rebecca), The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.​

This is not a even a scripture about God hating a sinner. According to the Bible, God had made a decision about Esau, and Jacob without them "having done any good or evil."

Within these scriptures we begin to see clues about what God really means by "hating Esau." Obviously God is using "linguistic hyperbole" to illustrate His choice before either son had been born, before either had done good or evil. Hi choice was not based on that criteria. God made a choice, and by action, He loved Jacob (by choosing him) and hated Esau (by not choosing him). This verse has nothing to do with lustful human hatred from a deeply wicked heart.

What the same theologians fail to mention when they refer to God's "hate" toward Esau is the whole story. They will always fail to mention that, when their point is to illustrate an emotionally hate-filled God.

But we will not fail to do that here. Instead, let us see the whole situation through. First, it begins with God's "love" toward Jacob and "hate" toward Esau manifested at the proper time:

Gen 25:29-34
One day, Jacob was cooking some stew, when Esau came home hungry and said, "I'm starving to death! Give me some of that red stew right now!" That's how Esau got the name "Edom." Jacob replied, "Sell me your rights as the first-born son." "I'm about to die," Esau answered. "What good will those rights do me?" But Jacob said, "Promise me your birthrights, here and now!" And that's what Esau did. Jacob then gave Esau some bread and some of the bean stew, and when Esau had finished eating and drinking, he just got up and left, showing how little he thought of his rights as the first-born.​

Bingo! Prophecy fulfilled. Esau probably had no idea that he was making a choice to fulfill God's will. He probably just thought he was making a choice to fill his stomach. Nevertheless, he sold his birthright. Let's go back to the end of that last line. Here is how the King James Version rendered it:

Gen 25:34
Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentils; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright. ​

Esau hated his birthright. Or, did he? If Esau despised his birthright, he had a funny way of showing it when he went to his father. Esau said, "My brother deserves the name Jacob, because he has already cheated me twice. The first time he cheated me out of my rights as the first-born son, and now he has cheated me out of my blessing." Then Esau asked his father, "Don't you still have any blessing left for me?" (Gen 27:36)

Does that sound like a man who emotionally hated his own birthright? If Esau emotionally despised his birthright, he sure has a strange way of showing that by grieving for it and sorely wanting it. The fact is, Esau did hate his birthright...in the sense that he chose Jacob's stew over it. It had nothing to do with emotion.

Clearly, God "loved" Jacob and "hated" Esau and we just witnessed how. But, let us keep on with these two. Let's not give up on them too soon. Jacob stole Esau's rights and blessing. Then he ran far away, because Esau, in his human way, was angry with Jacob and swore to kill him. Time passed. One day though, the Lord said to Jacob:"Jacob, go back to your relatives in the land of your ancestors, and I will bless you." (Gen 31:3)

Esau, having been tipped off, amassed troops and waited to strike and kill Jacob

Watch what happened:

Gen 33:1-12
Later that day Jacob met Esau coming with his four hundred men. So Jacob had his children walk with their mothers.
The two servant women, Zilpah and Bilhah, together with their children went first, followed by Leah and her children, then by Rachel and Joseph.

Jacob himself walked in front of them all, bowing to the ground seven times as he came near his brother. But Esau ran toward Jacob and hugged and kissed him. Then the two brothers started crying. When Esau noticed the women and children he asked, "Whose children are these?" Jacob answered, "These are the ones the LORD has been kind enough to give to me, your servant."

Then the two servant women and their children came and bowed down to Esau. Next, Leah and her children came and bowed down; finally, Joseph and Rachel also came and bowed down. Esau asked Jacob, "What did you mean by these herds I met along the road?""Master," Jacob answered, "I sent them so that you would be friendly to me."
"But, brother, I already have plenty," Esau replied. "Keep them for yourself."

"No!" Jacob said. "Please accept these gifts as a sign of your friendship for me. When you welcomed me and I saw your face, it was like seeing the face of God. Please accept these gifts I brought to you. God has been good to me, and I have everything I need." Jacob kept insisting until Esau accepted the gifts. "Let's get ready to travel," Esau said. "I'll go along with you."

Remember friends. God hated Esau. God HATED him. God had a passionate gut wrenching emotional revulsion for Esau, right? In fact, God hated Esau so much, He sent Jacob back to him, promising Jacob a blessing. And what a blessing Jacob received: HE BOWED TO ESAU SEVEN TIMES AND WAS REUNITED WITH HIM. That's quite an interesting hatred God has.

God is nothing like you and me. His ways are not your ways, but are higher than your ways. His thoughts are not like your thoughts, but are higher. Even his so-called "hate" is "love" compared to your weak human emotional hatred you show your enemies. Do you see how easy it is for God to melt the human heart with His "hatred?"
http://www.mercifultruth.com/doesgodhate.html[/quote]

lol so true

 

[_visionary_]

this is far beyond science

to a create a freewill being means you give up a certain level of control

I believe god put the creation into action knowing what would happen and yet he didn't want it to go the way it did

I realize this is difficult to understand

its something that goes beyond human understandings of creation

Because it highlights certain moral issues in the conceptualisation of a god. Because it makes people fidgity. I know the feeling. Tell you how many atheists have asked me the same question. But it is a good question. How can you believe in God if he allows evil and pain and hatred? That is a splendid question. We need to come face to face with this God of ours. He isn't like Elmo from Sesame street. This is God. The creator of the heavens and the earth. The dude talked about in the Old Testament. This is one mean mother. I highly doubt the wise sages of old believed in Free Will. I think free will is a very shallow way of dealing with problems that people need to face. God is fierce.

EDIT: Not everyone is able to deal with this though. So quite important to be relevant on my part. I dont think it'd be all that helpful teaching a child about an omnipotent god, although I may be wrong. Its a difficult issue to deal with indeed.

 

[DD2008]

I have no idea what Calvinists believe, or very little. I never really bothered reading anything from Calvin. What I do know is that God exists outside of human morallity. And in that confounds us all.

His ways are not our ways. He is infinite and we are finite. I agree.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06cr.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06cr.htm


By all means PLEASE stop misrepresenting the 'organization' you PURPORT to belong to and KNOW....

And do NOT call me a liar if the CHARGES are not TRUE.

I know my RCC dogma fairly well.

enjoy!

squint

I am glad someone here does

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7347823
Roman Catholicism - Complicated?

 

[&Abel]

hes not fierce

everything that has happened is due to the deserved actions of men

 

[chestertonrules]

Quit weaseling. Hated, Chez,... he was hated by the God you insist loves every single individual man. Coca Cola Theology.

“I have loved you,” says the Lord.
“But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’
“Was not Esau Jacob's brother?” the LORD says. “Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated . . .”
The question is fundamental. The answer is, firstly, that the verb s-n-‘, which usually means “to hate,” has a different meaning in biblical Hebrew when contrasted with the verb “to love.” Then it means not “hated” but “loved less intensely, less intimately.” That, as Ramban and Radak point out, is what it means in the passage: “Jacob cohabited with Rachel also, and he loved Rachel more than Leah . . . When the Lord saw that Leah was hated [senuah] . . .” Leah was not hated;she was merely less loved. That too is its meaning in Deuteronomy: “If a man has two wives, one loved, the other hated
[senuah] . . .” Here again, the meaning is not “hated” but “less loved.”


http://www.chiefrabbi.org/thoughts/toldot5765.pdf

 

[squint]

I now see that you know your statements about my beliefs were false.

There is no more accurate way to describe it.

Changing subjects and posting irrelevant quotes won't soothe your conscience.

By following the dictates of their conscious they are 'potentially saved' by WORKS in RCC land, and to which you cried LIAR.

 

[chestertonrules]

By following the dictates of their conscious they are 'potentially saved' by WORKS in RCC land, and to which you cried LIAR.

You know that what you wrote is false, and this is not it.

Here it is, by the way:

In Chestertons world you are SAVED BY WORKS remember???

That is false.

 

[squint]

God is nothing like you and me. His ways are not your ways, but are higher than your ways. His thoughts are not like your thoughts, but are higher. Even his so-called "hate" is "love" compared to your weak human emotional hatred you show your enemies. Do you see how easy it is for God to melt the human heart with His "hatred?"
http://www.mercifultruth.com/doesgodhate.html

The mystery wand appears yet AGAIN!

PrestO, changO, His Ways are above YOURS but I KNOW what they are...cries the wand bearer(s.)

 

[squint]

You know that what you wrote is false, and this is not it.


That is false.

No, it is what the RCC teaches Chester, and thereby YOU via extension:

"But the divine design of salvation embraces all men, and those who without fault on their part do not know the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but seek God sincerely, and under the influence of grace endeavor to do His will as recognized through the promptings of their conscience, they, in a number known only to God, can obtain salvation."

This is apart from the church or the Gospel. There is no choice made FOR GOD, but a choice to do HIS WILL which WILL means following THE dictates of THEIR own conscious.

 

[MamaZ]

so does the calvinist hold to the belief that god rips branches off his tree and then sticks them back on for fun?

or is it due to the actions of the men themselves?

I think the answer is obvious

well with this the scriptures are talking about the Jewish and the OC . Now the Jewish people will have to be born again in order to be grafted back into the TRUE VINE.. This is not of the will of man but of the Spirit of God..

 

[chestertonrules]

No, it is what the RCC teaches Chester, and thereby YOU via extension:

"But the divine design of salvation embraces all men, and those who without fault on their part do not know the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but seek God sincerely, and under the influence of grace endeavor to do His will as recognized through the promptings of their conscience, they, in a number known only to God, can obtain salvation."

This is apart from the church or the Gospel. There is no choice made FOR GOD, but a choice to do HIS WILL which WILL means following THE dictates of THEIR own conscious.

This merely states that it is not our role to judge others and that we should not limit God's mercy for the ignorant.

This is a statement of possibility, not assurance, and it is irrelevant to you and I.

 

[MamaZ]

You know that what you wrote is false, and this is not it.

Here it is, by the way:




That is false.

So if you do not do works are you saved?