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Whose choice do you think it should be? It is called the 'kingdom of God' for a reason. It's not the 'kingdom of chestertonrules', or, likely, only you'd end up there. God's kingdom, God's rules, God chooses. No matter who's theology you choose, God has drawn some line in the sand and chooses. Why are you arguing so much against Calvinism when everyone else has the same issue?
Whose choice do you think it should be? It is called the 'kingdom of God' for a reason. It's not the 'kingdom of chestertonrules', or, likely, only you'd end up there. God's kingdom, God's rules, God chooses. No matter who's theology you choose, God has drawn some line in the sand and chooses. Why are you arguing so much against Calvinism when everyone else has the same issue?
So then you agree with this:So then, you agree with this:
You believe God chooses some for eternal torture with no regard for their thought, words or actions on earth.
You claim he puts us into two piles. One to love, one to torture.
You claim that he does this for his own glory.
You believe God allows people you say He loves to do things that will get them sent to hell, but if they accumulate enough good works, God will reward them with eternal life.
You believe He lets us sort ourselves out into two piles. One to love, one to torture.
You ignore or outright deny His willingness to show His longsuffering & wrath
Uh, no, God chooses NOT to save some in Calvins world.
Alright, that's twice in this thread you've been caught playing it both ways.
So then you agree with this:
You believe God allows people you say He loves to do things that will get them sent to hell, but if they accumulate enough good works, God will reward them with eternal life.
You believe He lets us sort ourselves out into two piles. One to love, one to torture.
You ignore or outright deny His willingness to show His longsuffering & wrath
I believe God created us with the freedom to follow his will or to reject it. I believe God gives every person sufficient grace to enable them to follow his will.
Some, of their own volition, will reject the grace of God.
The bible gives us very clear instructions. Some claim that these instructions are irrelevant.
And for the classic setup question...
IS God UNwilling or UNable to SAVE some?
Be careful how you answer...
Romans turning God into an effeminate schizophrenic who not only doesn't know what He created & pays for good works with salvation, He actualy accepts legal tender for time-off in pagan-imagined purgatory.Because Calvinists turn God into a merciless monster who drew an arbitrary line in the sand with no regard for our actions while on earth.
Just drawing a random line somewhere and torturing one side while loving the other is not Godly.
The bible gives us very clear instructions. Some claim that these instructions are irrelevant.
No one here I know of ignores what the Bible says, they just interpret it different waysI'm just really tired of this repeated lie. Show me where anyone said that the instructions in the Bible are irrelevant. Copy and paste every post that says we can ignore anything the Bible says.
Then you deny the scriptures. (1Cor.2:14)quote=chestertonrules; I believe God created us with the freedom to follow his will or to reject it.
That makes you a Pelagian. The RCC declared him a heretic.I believe God gives every person sufficient grace to enable them to follow his will.
Predestintion doesn't deny that.Some, of their own volition, will reject the grace of God.
No one here I know of ignores what the Bible says, they just interpret it different ways
Luke 19:41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her 42 saying "that if thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was Hid/ekrubh <2928> (5648) from thy eyes.
I'm just really tired of this repeated lie. Show me where anyone said that the instructions in the Bible are irrelevant. Copy and paste every post that says we can ignore anything the Bible says.
I'll provide some scripture. You've already told me that you reject the words of some scripture because "WE KNOW" that it means something else.
You claim that our actions have no impact on our salvation. What does the bible say?
Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
Luke 9
23Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Luke 12
42The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
That makes you a Pelagian. The RCC declared him a heretic.
Pelagian denied the necessity of God's grace.
Predestintion doesn't deny that.
You don't understand what predestination is because you think you are equal to God in the sense that you have the power to redeem yourself by an act of your own will.
Yes it does. You don't like the teachings of Calvin closely examined.
Since Calvinists claim God withholds his grace from the non elect, then these people have no freedom of choice.
They don't. They impact our rewards in heaven - the quality of, not the fact of, our salvation.You claim that our actions have no impact on our salvation.
This is not proof of anything. Support your accusation or withdraw it.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
Luke 9
23Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Luke 12
42The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. This is not proof of anything. Support your accusation or withdraw it.
__________________
He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
They don't. They impact our rewards in heaven - the quality of, not the fact of, our salvation.
1Co 3:15 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
What does the bible say?
So does your tradition of emphasis on works via the "co-operative salvation" doctrined defined in the canons from The Council of Trent.quote=chestertonrules; Pelagian denied the necessity of God's grace.
I like 'em fine because they are scriptural. You can't stand them because:Yes it does. You don't like the teachings of Calvin closely examined.
No one but God decides upon whom He will visit His mercy.Since Calvinists claim God withholds his grace from the non elect, then these people have no freedom of choice.
You're literalizing, again.quote=chestertonrules; In purgatory. I agree.
No, it is as it says, related to "the natural man" - every human being in his natural-born state since Adam.This is related to a man who has followed God.
The man who does not will likely give himself over to religious affections & feed his soul, enlarging it with religious information & posessions, immersing himself in the motions, stuff & junk, w/no real idea of what spirit is.What of the man who does not?
This is why I said you are spastic.21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
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