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Because it is a lie, and a lie, if repeated enough, is taken for truth, and it could cause others to stumble. .
This was answered in post 328.
Then she was not educated in what Calvinists believe, and by extention, neither do you, since that is not a Calvinist position.
How can anything we do change God sovereign's plan for the elect?
How can those chosen by God stumble?
This doesn't sound like Calvinism to me.
Is this the Calvinist position?
Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm
I agree with that for the most part, but I believe it is more that we don't know what God bases it on since there is no pattern that we can see. God doesn't only choose those who already believe in Him, as He has saved some who have never heard the gospel. He doesn't only save the rich, or only save the poor. He doesn't only choose the powerful or only choose the weak. But He does choose people from all walks of life. It is a mystery to us.
I personally hope that God is vastly more Sovereign than what J. Calvin determined.
Please elaborate. I'm not following you.
More loving and merciful. I doubt think God's sovereignty is in dispute.
I agree with that for the most part, but I believe it is more that we don't know what God bases it on since there is no pattern that we can see. God doesn't only choose those who already believe in Him, as He has saved some who have never heard the gospel. He doesn't only save the rich, or only save the poor. He doesn't only choose the powerful or only choose the weak. But He does choose people from all walks of life. It is a mystery to us.
How can anything we do change God sovereign's plan for the elect?
How can those chosen by God stumble?
This doesn't sound like Calvinism to me.
IF it is a mystery (which story I don't buy) THEN it is also a mystery to me WHY your extension cannot reach out to encompass all people, at least as a possibility.
Uh, no Albion, the predestined DO NOT avoid that fate. And if they DO NOT then it is force of Divine Will.
I've read a few of your posts about these matters, and you appear to have a conglomeration of sorts. A Calvinist with a freewill bent?
It could,
if everyone has made some kind of sincere repentance and acceptance of the Lord before they die, but only God knows that.
I can't presume to know another's heart, but Christ did say that narrow is the gate and few there be who find it. I'd prefer to believe in a God who will save everyone too, but that is not what the scriptures teach.
Actually Albion represents Calvinism very well. Its just that the facts of what he presents just don't fit your concept of a Calvinist.
If you don't believe Albion, then look at the historical documents and writings. Many Reformed Calvinists hold to The Westminster Confession. Here are a couple of statements from it:
"...yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. " (III:1)
"God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil." (IX:1).
So it would seem, Squint, that your view of Calvinists is not only erroneous but extremely marginalized.
LDG
I'm sorry, why do people who are predestined to go to heaven need to hear it from you?The elect are not converted already. They need to hear the gospel and Jesus told us to go tell
I'm sorry, but I still can't reconcile the mentality.PETE's exactly right, UB. It is faith in Christ as one's Savior that saves, not an eternal decree saying "All of you in the group on the right come ahead."
Predestination is often seen as a divine decision about who will be saved (and who will not) but, really, it's a decision about who will receive the faith. Very much of Predestinarian theology will make sense to those who find it incomprehensible if this one fact is kept in mind.
For example, knowing this dispels the question often asked "Why bother to evangelize?" The faith comes in the same way whethe we believe in Predestination or Freewill--from hearing the Gospel. And it dispels that other question, "Why be good if it doesn't matter?" Once one becomes a believer in Christ and trusts his promises, he cannot be disinterested in living as Christ would have us live and taught us to live. That would only show us that this person doesn't have the faith in the first place, much like the lukewarm who adhere to any cause, religious or otherwise, who say with their lips that they are followers or advocates but by their actions demonstrate no commitment.
I'm not talking about the difference in theology, but you questioned why they get defensive. Same reason you do. Someone is opposing what they hold as true.In some ways, I suppose.
But because Catholics believe that all men are able to go to heaven by cooperating with God's grace, I think that our insistence on this matter is different.
We believe that every person we meet is a candidate for heaven. God has not put black dots on some of us which brand us as rejects.
Whoa there and wait a minute. I'm sorry, but you cannot say 'it could' out of one side of your mouth and then deny that 'it could' happen. That does not work.
Any of you who claim to believe in The Divine Sovereign should also accept that God could save everyone or no one IF He wanted to and you could not do anything about it either way. To be logically consistent COULD has to remain COULD.
enjoy!
squint
I have not deliberately misrepresented Calvinism.
I have not heard you present that there are an unequal number of UNbelievers frying in hell than Calvinism. So how then is your understanding one whit different? The identical amount of people fry as an end result of either of your positions. 1 + 3 = 4 and 2 + 2 = 4. Also in the case of your presentations, God obviously does with hold His Grace from those being burned alive forever eh?
Neither your position or the Calvinist position know for any certainty who is actually saved in any case. You all however presume YOU are actually saved contrary to what the positions state.
And the saved obviously were predestined to be saved, whether by the will God gave them to exercise 'freely' or the predestined by Gods Will Alone. The man didn't just get here by accident.
God made them all.
I'm sorry, why do people who are predestined to go to heaven need to hear it from you?
that's a illogical conclusion I cannot reconcile.
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