Calvinist Robots

[LamorakDesGalis]

It just proves that "all" does not mean each and every one.

True.

Did Paul actually stir up riots among the Jews over all the world?

Acts 24:5 "We have found this man [Paul] to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect...

Did the Pharisees actually think the whole world followed after Jesus?

John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!"

 

[A New Dawn]

True.

Did Paul actually stir up riots among the Jews over all the world?

Acts 24:5 "We have found this man [Paul] to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect...

Did the Pharisees actually think the whole world followed after Jesus?

John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!"

Shhh!! It's best not to let it be widely known that all doesn't really mean all, and that the whole world doesn't really mean the whole world. Some here have created whole doctrines on the belief that those words mean exactly what they say.

 

[Thekla]

take the hyperbole* too far, we'll end up at none

*chiastic epistrophe,
anaphora, symploce,
lets call the whole thing off

 

[jckstraw72]

It just proves that "all" does not mean each and every one.

Christ died for all, not all accept ...

 

[JacobHall86]

Christ died for all, not all accept ...

If he died for all, why are not all saved? Isn't the power of the blood of Christ enough to cover the sins of the whole world right?

 

[Tzaousios]

If he died for all, why are not all saved? Isn't the power of the blood of Christ enough to cover the sins of the whole world right?

Isn't the answer to this question predicated on the type of Calvinist one is? Christ died for only the elect, therefore his blood is only efficient for the elect. The atonement of his blood is limited to the elect. God's purpose in predestining Christ was for his blood to atone for the elect.

 

[MamaZ]

So we were not chosen in Him before the foundation of this earth (oikoumene), but before the foundation of the kosmos . Which

'world' do you think was the first world founded, the 'oikoumene' or the 'kosmos' ?
Chosen before the foundation of the whole Kosmos. The Kosmos. Oikoumene
basic meaning is that of “the inhabited earth. we were chosen before the earth was inhabited because we were chosen before the very foundation of the Kosmos.

If keeping all of the law does not make us righteous, (and it doesn't, because for one thing, we are not under, nor have we ever been under the law that James 2:10 is referring to) then breaking part or all of it would not make us unrighteous. You are using Isaiah 64:6 out of its context. Our righteousness is not as filthy rags unto the Lord. He knows the intent of the heart and mind, and in due season we shall reap a due reward.

Because one is not Jewish and born under the law negates the Law of the God on gentiles behalf at the white throne judgment? God will judge both the living and the dead. To what standard do you believe God to judge one by.





Galations 6: 7. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.


So what do you believe this scripture is saying up above?

By your own admission, "But sometimes out of my mouth comes sin at its best.. " One cannot sin unless there is first the desire to do so. So your desire is not always for the Lord.

There is sin that dwells within me for I have not been changed from the corruptable to the incorruptable. But to have a desire to go out and steal I don't have that desire in me. To go out and cause other people harm in any way I don't have that desire in me. There is sin that dwells in every man.. It just is there. LOL.. As Paul says oh wretched man that I am..My desire is always for the Lord but whew do I fail sometimes, I still have the human flesh part of me and will have until I am called home to be with my Lord..Understand sin in us and living a life of sin. There is difference there. I just don't know quite how to put it into words.


I don't remember any such 'experience' as this. But then I don't remember experiencing my natural birth either. But here I am, so I guess I must have had that experience at least.

Well have you become a new creation? Are all things new?

John 3:8 "The Spirit breathes where it will. You hear the sound of it but cannot tell from where it is coming or where it is going. So is every one who has been born of the Spirit."

So, here I am feeling and hearing that Spirit breathing on me. So even though I don't remember it, or really know when it was happening, surely I must have been born from above at sometime or another.

Well do you know that you have eternal life?

 

[MamaZ]

Ever hear of 'quenching the spirit'? MamaZ

One has to have the Spirit of God in them to quench the Spirit.

 

[ArcticFox]

If he died for all, why are not all saved? Isn't the power of the blood of Christ enough to cover the sins of the whole world right?

I'm not too strict a Calvinist on this. The Bible isn't clear in specifically what way he could have died for all without that death applying to all.

I know one thing for sure, from a human standpoint, reading the Bible it seems to make no sense that Jesus would die expressly for people who thus do not accept him and thus do not become saved.

It would mean that God's efforts were in vain for those individuals, and God's power falls flat on the floor.

It seems unlikely. I'm not going to pick at scripture to try to force my view one way or another, however. I know that, in at least some sense, Jesus sacrifice does not fully apply to those who ultimately are not saved.

 

[squint]

True.

Did Paul actually stir up riots among the Jews over all the world?

Acts 24:5 "We have found this man [Paul] to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect...

Did the Pharisees actually think the whole world followed after Jesus?

John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!"

And any good Bible student knows there is more than one world involved with these matters...particularly ONE WORLD with 'occupants' who REACT to the Word which same we cannot see with physical eyes, so it's not as easy an equation as you make it when you are only looking at the world through fleshly eyes:

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

It remains entirely conceivable for example that every DEVIL in the whole world can hear the Gospel being proclaimed because the WORD is spiritual and THEY obviously 'react' to same. ALL is Israel regarding THE DEVILS could have heard every single Word spoken by Jesus as another example applied to your scripture above or with these as well:

Matthew 21:10
And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?

Was ALL, every man, woman and child thusly MOVED?

Perhaps SO if the EVIL PRESENT with them was listening...

Not so easy to dismiss 'all' and other terms with a slightly expanded view of who the writers may be speaking about.

Same for Calvins 'limited atonement' equation. The atonement can be for ALL mankind and for NONE of DEVILkind (who happen to be with mankind.)

enjoy!

squint

 

[Evergreen48]

So we were not chosen in Him before the foundation of this earth (oikoumene), but before the foundation of the kosmos . Which 'world' do you think was the first world founded, the 'oikoumene' or the 'kosmos' ?

Chosen before the foundation of the whole Kosmos. The Kosmos. Oikoumene
basic meaning is that of “the inhabited earth. we were chosen before the earth was inhabited because we were chosen before the very foundation of the Kosmos.

Then sometime between the time the earth was created and the time it became inhabited is when we were chosen. Is that what you believe?

If keeping all of the law does not make us righteous, (and it doesn't, because for one thing, we are not under, nor have we ever been under the law that James 2:10 is referring to) then breaking part or all of it would not make us unrighteous. You are using Isaiah 64:6 out of its context. Our righteousness is not as filthy rags unto the Lord. He knows the intent of the heart and mind, and in due season we shall reap a due reward.

Because one is not Jewish and born under the law negates the Law of the God on gentiles behalf at the white throne judgment?

I never said that not being Jewish negates the law of God. I said to the effect that we as Gentiles were never under the law (Mosaic) which was the law to which James 2:10 was referring.

God will judge both the living and the dead. To what standard do you believe God to judge one by.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29. and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

Does that answer your question?

Galations 6: 7. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

So what do you believe this scripture is saying up above?

That we will reap what we sow.

By your own admission, "But sometimes out of my mouth comes sin at its best.. " One cannot sin unless there is first the desire to do so. So your desire is not always for the Lord.

There is sin that dwells within me for I have not been changed from the corruptable to the incorruptable. But to have a desire to go out and steal I don't have that desire in me. To go out and cause other people harm in any way I don't have that desire in me.

Neither do I. I never did have those desires. But I have the desire sometimes to do some things that are just as bad. Do you?

James 1:26 If any man thinketh himself to be religious, while he bridleth not his tongue but deceiveth his heart, this man's religion is vain.

James 3:5. Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6. And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7. For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
8. But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

There is sin that dwells in every man.. It just is there. LOL.. As Paul says oh wretched man that I am..My desire is always for the Lord but whew do I fail sometimes, I still have the human flesh part of me and will have until I am called home to be with my Lord..Understand sin in us and living a life of sin. There is difference there. I just don't know quite how to put it into words.

We cannot truthfully say that our desire is always for the Lord, if we sometimes desire to do things that are not acceptable to the Lord.

I don't remember any such 'experience' as this. But then I don't remember experiencing my natural birth either. But here I am, so I guess I must have had that experience at least.

John 3:8 "The Spirit breathes where it will. You hear the sound of it but cannot tell from where it is coming or where it is going. So is every one who has been born of the Spirit."

So, here I am feeling and hearing that Spirit breathing on me. So even though I don't remember it, or really know when it was happening, surely I must have been born from above at sometime or another.

Well do you know that you have eternal life?

John 11:25. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Yes, I believe I do have eternal life.

Ever hear of 'quenching the spirit'? MamaZ

One has to have the Spirit of God in them to quench the Spirit.

I believe that is what Chesterton was telling you: that everyone has, or shall be (as they are born into this world) made alive by His Spirit which lives in them. And I am telling you that this Spirit can be quenched to the point that it no longer lives in the individual, by walking 'according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air', ' fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind'.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

[Rick Otto]

Originally Posted by jckstraw72

i havent been reading this whole thread -- are you saying that the fact that not all are saved proves TULIP?
​

It just proves that "all" does not mean each and every one.

I see that a lot. People thinking one piece of a puzzle fitting in with what they think they already know, validates an entire misconception.

No one thing proves all five doctrinal points, but each point is inextricably linked by continuity in the philosophy of theology at it's core, the doctrine of grace & election. That those two facts exist & are divinely directed is undermined by the idea that God determines that direction based on each creature's motive,... it's counter-intuitive to the sovereignity dynamic & impossible in the stark reality of omniscience. God knew what each creature would do in every moment of its existence before He created it.

Then sometime between the time the earth was created and the time it became inhabited is when we were chosen. Is that what you believe?

No, everything that exists, everything that happens in existence, was known before anything at all was created. That is the nature of determinate council by omniscients.
We can imagine what omniscience might be like, but we can't conceive it.
It boggles me to think how it would affect emotional dynamics.

 

[chestertonrules]

And I posted Strong's that says differently.

Who cares?

Can't you respond to my post?

I asssume you are admitting that you have no response.


Just curious, do you think the word YOU in the above sentence also has two different meanings?

 

[chestertonrules]

Were it not for the rest of Scripture to prove this wrong (not all are justified or saved), I'd be inclined to believe you.

You believe your man made dogma. Scripture is not saying whay your area claiming it says!

Unfortunately for your hermeneutics in this case, the remaining verses of the Bible prove that position incorrect... not all are saved, justified, or made alive in Christ. That is a fact we know well.

The passages in question do not say that all men are saved and justified. It says that all are made ALIVE in Christ and that through Christ all are LED to justification and life. We also read in scripture that Christ draws ALL men to himself. None of these passages state that all men will follow and persevere. We must pick up our cross and follow.

Scripture with Scripture... Interpret Scripture through the lens of Scripture. It sounds like circular logic, and to an extent it is, but it works and works very well.

Stop reading scripture through the trouble mind of Calvin. Read it yourself!

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

I'm not too strict a Calvinist on this. The Bible isn't clear in specifically what way he could have died for all without that death applying to all.

Historical Calvinist writers affirm the universal aspects of the atonement. There are many, many quotes - including from Calvin - but here are just a few:


Charles Hodge in Systematic Theology (vol. II) p. 546:
"There is a sense, therefore, in which He died for all, and there is a sense in which He died for the elect alone."

AA Hodge in Outlines of Theology, p. 416:
"Nor is there any debate as to the universal reference of some of the benefits purchased by Christ. Calvinists believe that the entire dispensation of forbearance under which the human family rest since the fall, including for the unjust as well as the just temporal mercies and means of grace, is part of the purchase of Christ’s blood. They admit also that Christ did in a sense die for all men, that he thereby removed all legal obstacles from the salvation of any and every man, and that his satisfaction may be applied to one man as well as to another if God so wills it."

R.B. Kuiper in For Whom Did Christ Die? pp. 78-79:
"According to the Reformed faith the divine design of the atonement is in an important respect limited. But the Reformed faith also insists that in other respects it is universal. It can be shown without the slightest difficulty that certain benefits of the atonement, other than the salvation of individuals, are universal.... Therefore the statement, so often heard from Reformed pulpits, that Christ died only for the elect must be rated a careless one... The particular design of the atonement and its universal design in no way contradict each other. Nor do they merely complement each other. They support and strengthen each other. In final analysis they stand and fall together."


LDG

 

[Rick Otto]

Calvin's troubled mind was at least free of Rome's greater troubles.

 

[chestertonrules]

Historical Calvinist writers affirm the universal aspects of the atonement. There are many, many quotes - including from Calvin - but here are just a few:


Charles Hodge in Systematic Theology (vol. II) p. 546:
"There is a sense, therefore, in which He died for all, and there is a sense in which He died for the elect alone."

AA Hodge in Outlines of Theology, p. 416:
"Nor is there any debate as to the universal reference of some of the benefits purchased by Christ. Calvinists believe that the entire dispensation of forbearance under which the human family rest since the fall, including for the unjust as well as the just temporal mercies and means of grace, is part of the purchase of Christ’s blood. They admit also that Christ did in a sense die for all men, that he thereby removed all legal obstacles from the salvation of any and every man, and that his satisfaction may be applied to one man as well as to another if God so wills it."

R.B. Kuiper in For Whom Did Christ Die? pp. 78-79:
"According to the Reformed faith the divine design of the atonement is in an important respect limited. But the Reformed faith also insists that in other respects it is universal. It can be shown without the slightest difficulty that certain benefits of the atonement, other than the salvation of individuals, are universal.... Therefore the statement, so often heard from Reformed pulpits, that Christ died only for the elect must be rated a careless one... The particular design of the atonement and its universal design in no way contradict each other. Nor do they merely complement each other. They support and strengthen each other. In final analysis they stand and fall together."


LDG

These guys don't sound like the Calvinists here on GT!

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Who cares?

Can't you respond to my post?

I asssume you are admitting that you have no response.

No, actually your understanding of Calvinism is a house of cards.

And when a person's argument is a house of cards, what does it matter if that person insists that the third level contains the king of spades?


LDG

 

[chestertonrules]

Calvin's troubled mind was at least free of Rome's greater troubles.

The are many troubled minds among Catholics.

However, we don't base our faith on their ideas!

 

[chestertonrules]

No, actually your understanding of Calvinism is a house of cards.

And when a person's argument is a house of cards, what does it matter if that person insists that the third level contains the king of spades?


LDG

I responded to her post specifically.

You obviously didn't even read the interchange.

Perhaps you should inform yourself before interjecting nonsense.