Calvinist Baptist Talk

[JM]

Just thought we could talk in this thread, I'm by no means a great defender of the doctrines of Grace. If I lack ability to answer hard questions, it's not because an answer doesn't exist, but because I'm not sure where to find it.

Lets keep it peaceful and 'in house' between brothers and sisters.

SP

 

[@@Paul@@]

From the dispensational thread...

All this from my "robot" comment?? I'm a little lost..
By being "dead" are you saying man could NOT be saved even if he wanted to?

That is exactly what they are saying. Man is incapable of belief because he is "dead". The first of the points of calvinism is "total depravity" but when you really look at it, it is actually "total inability"...

The idea that God created a bunch of "dead" people (Robots) in this sense is a little silly... so in otherwords, It's not US who CHOOSE to believe in a God; it's God who CHOOSE to let some believe... This idea is totally (IMHO) unscriptural.

Rom 1:18-21 KJV
(18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
(19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.​

.........God has showed , even to the unrighteousness, that there IS a God.

(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

.........Everything in CREATION point to this FACT, so every man is without an excuse.

(21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.​

.........every person at some point in his/her life will realize there must be a God, and they will glorify him not.

My 2c.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Joh 3:18-20 KJV
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
(20) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.​

Notice even the nonbelievers have something to believe?? i.e. They choose NOT to believe because they LOVE darkness rather than light.

How can someone believe NOT if there was nothing revealed for them to believe? .............. see Rom. 1:18-21

 

[Andyman_1970]

.........every person at some point in his/her life will realize there must be a God, and they will glorify him not.

Romans 2:14-15, even pagan Gentiles who don't have the Law sometimes follow it by their nature.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Romans 2:14-15, even pagan Gentiles who don't have the Law sometimes follow it by their nature.

Good point.......

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another​

Could this use of "conscience" be explained as "nature bearing witness"?

 

[JM]

Great, you didn't even read the link I provided in that thread about 'robots.'! lol No biggie. The word dead means just that, dead. Paul said no one seeks God, why?

We know at least one didn't have a chance to 'choose' God.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Hummmm, why was he lost? Why wasn't the son of perdition given allow to grab the life ring of salvation and save himself?

God Controls "Nature"

"Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar: The Lord of Hosts is His name" (Jeremiah 31:35)

"By the breath of God frost is given: and the breadth of the waters is straitened. Also by watering he wearieth the thick cloud: he scattereth his bright cloud: And it is turned about by His counsels: that they may do whatsoever He commandeth them upon the face of the whole world in the earth. He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for His land, or for mercy" (Job 37:10-13)

"For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth". (Genesis 7:4)

God determines the length of your life

"All the days ordained (set apart) for me were written in your book before one of them came to be"
(Psalm 139"16)

"Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? Are not his days also like the days of an hireling?" (Job 7:1)

"Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble...Seeing his days are determenied, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his boundes that he cannot pass" (Job 14:1, 5)

God controls your steps

"A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps" (Proverbs 16:9)

Gods control in regards to our hearts

Above when Solomon said "A mans heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps", it must be noted the this verse cannot have been meant as a blanket statement over every single affair in our lives, (at least in regards to the heart that is). For upon my studies concerning the extent of Gods control in the affairs of men, I realized that the Bible explicitly teaches that God also has control of the heart. Sometimes it is not the man's heart who divises his way. Sometimes it is God who divises the ways of the mans heart and then He also controls mans steps on top of that.

"And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall the , and shall make her desolate and , and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled." (Revelation 17:16-17)

"And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: But I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go" (Exodus 4:21)

"And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: For they shall be my people, for they shall return unto me with their whole heart" (Jeremiah 24:6-7)

"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jeremiah 31:33)

"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto those things which were spoken of Paul" (Acts 16:14)

God controls all things

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purposes of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will"
(Ephesians 1:11)

Why would God not be in control of your salvation?

SP

 

[JM]

Good point.......

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another​

Could this use of "conscience" could be explained as "nature bearing witness"?

And what was guiding their hearts, their conscience? Why does one 'choose' to be saved and one does not? I think it silly to believe man is in control of anything, in a way, it's another idol in place of God.

SP

 

[bleechers]

God controls all things

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purposes of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will"
(Ephesians 1:11)

Key word "counsel"... He works all things after the "counsel" of His own will.

To read this to mean that ALL things are caused by God, is to make this thread irrelevant at best (for all posts are necessarily "His will") and makes God the author of rape, murder, and anything else you can think of.

"And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: But I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go" (Exodus 4:21)

The scriptures also teach that Pharoah hardened his own heart! This is consistent with God's promise in Proverbs that for those who do not heed His counsel will come a day when He will not hear their cries.

Above when Solomon said "A mans heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps", it must be noted the this verse cannot have been meant as a blanket statement over every single affair in our lives, (at least in regards to the heart that is). For upon my studies concerning the extent of Gods control in the affairs of men, I realized that the Bible explicitly teaches that God also has control of the heart. Sometimes it is not the man's heart who divises his way. Sometimes it is God who divises the ways of the mans heart and then He also controls mans steps on top of that.

Either God controls ALL or He is not sovereign in your economy. You cannot have it both ways. Either ALL is God's will (sin included) or God has allowed man a will.

Compare the difference:

Mt 25: 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world...

with

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...


Salvation is truly a gift of God. In any dispensation, those who enter into blessing do so because they are "blessed of [the] Father". Note that those who are "cursed" are not "cursed OF THE FATHER".

Similarly, those at this judgment are brought into a place "prepared for [them]"; conversely, those condemned are sent to a place that was never meant for them.

It is God's will to bless and to save. He wants to bring us to a place He has prepared for those who believe. Those who listen are blessed of God because He has rewarded faith (not a work, Rom 4:4-5) because of His mercy. Faith would not save anybody if God did not bless faith with grace and mercy.

Those who reject God's call and who refuse to believe, they do so NOT because they are "cursed of God", but because of their unbelief. They are also sent to a place that was never preapared for them. If in God's will, they were created for condemnation, then the place of their eternal damnation would have been prepared FOR THEM.

 

[@@Paul@@]

And what was guiding their hearts, their conscience? Why does one 'choose' to be saved and one does not? I think it silly to believe man is in control of anything, in a way, it's another idol in place of God. SP

Because we are not sea-monkeys!! The bible speaks volumes as to WHY He created man... For companionship.. To be LOVED, To be CHOOSEN... What kind of friendship would it be if you choose your friends who did not "really" choose you?

One problem here is, Man is trying to put God in a box and say: "Well we are all predestinated, either to heaven or hell"... AND we forget to read "according to the purposes of Him, after His OWN COUNCIL". See the problem?

Flat out. Romans chapters 1 and 2 plainly say: no one will have an excuse... Do we really think people are going to stand before God at the White Throne Judgement and say "Well YOU didn't OPEN my EYES!! It's YOUR Fault!!" - come on.

Problem TWO. taking the idea of being "predestinated" to far usually is due to most other problems with bible interpretation... It's the lack of understanding as to why God spoke to ONE MAN (Abraham). God could have spoken to EVERYONE on the earth and said LEAVE YOUR HOUSE NOW, but he didn't, He spoke to ONE MAN. And just as He spoke to one man, God CAN speek to everyone if He wanted to... but it wasn't according to his purpose. i.e. There's a better way.

I wonder if anyone really wonders WHY He choose to redeem man the way He did...

To think that Man ISN'T in control of anything is silly... We wouldn't need otherwise.

 

[BT]

Because we are not sea-monkeys!!

This is amongst the greatest arguments vs. Calvinism that I've ever heard!

 

[cygnusx1]

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This is amongst the greatest arguments vs. Calvinism that I've ever heard!

:o

 

[@@Paul@@]

[/size][/font]

This is amongst the greatest arguments vs. Calvinism that I've ever heard!

I saved 15 gum wrappers for a month,,,, then killed all mine..

 

[cygnusx1]

Do you accept that Christians are secure in their salvation?

 

[BT]

Do you accept that Christians are secure in their salvation?

WAAAAAAaaaay off topic you actually skipped all the way to point 5.

Yes I do accept that Christians are secure in their salvation. But I also submit that the Calvinist has no "Assurance of Salvation" and that "Eternal Security" (OSAS) is not a "Calvinist" dogma, it is a Biblical concept.

 

[@@Paul@@]

"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jeremiah 31:33)

"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto those things which were spoken of Paul" (Acts 16:14)

You’re totally missing the point of the New Covenant….

They will FIRST choose God through REPENTANCE > Thus the Kingdom Gospel: REPENT….

After which, when the TWO houses become ONE, He will put their Law in their Hearts…. But only AFTER they repent.

We know at least one didn't have a chance to 'choose' God.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Hummmm, why was he lost? Why wasn't the son of perdition given allow to grab the life ring of salvation and save himself?

This does NOT say he wasn't given his fair chance (read Rom. 1 and 2)… God’s foreknowledge knew this would happen!! Just like the death on the cross!!………… Now I have a picture of “Randy-Macho Man savage” in my head saying…. “Now THAT’S extreme!!”….

Everyone is given a chance…. Otherwise God is simply a puppeteer…

 

[BT]

Let me know when you get tired of banging your head against the wall Paul, and I'll take a turn.

Though I think SP and I have been down this road 139 times or so before.... then again mabey not on this particular point of TULIP...

SP you know I love ya, regardless of this disagreement!

 

[@@Paul@@]

Let me know when you get tired of banging your head against the wall Paul, and I'll take a turn.

Well, i've learned one thing here.... I know what Hermeneutical gymnastics is!!

 

[BT]

ROFL yeah you'll be seeing that. And it's not even and Olympic event!

 

[Tractor1]

@@Paul@@ writes:

The idea that God created a bunch of "dead" people (Robots) in this sense is a little silly... so in otherwords, It's not US who CHOOSE to believe in a God; it's God who CHOOSE to let some believe... This idea is totally (IMHO) unscriptural

It wasn't God who created "a bunch of dead people." In keeping with the doctrine of imputation; after Adam all men possess a fallen nature and are spiritually dead apart from Christ and are unable to comprehend the truth of God. I find, in contrast to your opinion that man's inability to choose God is unscriptural, that It bears constant witness to the fact.

(1 Cor. 2:14) states, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit; for they are foolisness to him." Also in (1 Cor. 1:18), the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Unsaved Gentiles are said to walk in the futility of their minds, "being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their hearts" (Eph. 4:18).

And according to (Romans 8:7) the natural mind isn't capable of being subject to the law of God, "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so."

Lastly, Christ bore witness to the natural man's inability when He said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44).

Not only do I find that Scripture teaches of man's inability, but also teaches that "Satan has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ" (2 Cor. 4:4) making man's condition hopeless apart from divine intervention.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[@@Paul@@]

@@Paul@@ writes:
It wasn't God who created "a bunch of dead people." In keeping with the doctrine of imputation; after Adam all men possess a fallen nature and are spiritually dead apart from Christ and are unable to comprehend the truth of God. I find, in contrast to your opinion that man's inability to choose God is unscriptural, that It bears constant witness to the fact.

(1 Cor. 2:14) states, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit; for they are foolisness to him." Also in (1 Cor. 1:18), the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Unsaved Gentiles are said to walk in the futility of their minds, "being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their hearts" (Eph. 4:18).

And according to (Romans 8:7) the natural mind isn't capable of being subject to the law of God, "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so."

Lastly, Christ bore witness to the natural man's inability when He said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44).

Not only do I find that Scripture teaches of man's inability, but also teaches that "Satan has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ" (2 Cor. 4:4) making man's condition hopeless apart from divine intervention.

In Christ,
Tracey

Thanks for your thoughts,,, Although i don't agree... I feel i must rebut.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.​

………This is not referring to salvation. An unsaved person will not understand the things of the Spirit (creation is not one of them). i.e. Witchcraft > Homosexuality > Fornication > Idolatry > all those little things we now know is wrong (through the Spirit of God).

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.​

………If one does not first believe in God (through the witness of creation), it IS follishness.

Eph 4:18-19 KJV
(18) Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
(19) Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.​

………” the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart”. All this points to the fact that THEY (the unbeliever) is ignorant through their own blindness. They choose not to believe.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.​

………We are not talking about following God’s Law’s. We are talking about men choosing NOT to believe in a God.. of course those who ignorantly choose not to believe, based on the FACTS presented by creation alone, then choose to live in darkness can never understand the laws of God. – unless they should first choose to believe.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.​

………But you must first believe, which is what creation is drawing man to believe. To be saved from your own sins, you must first realize you are a sinner.

2Co 4:2-4 KJV
(2) But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
(3) But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
(4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.​

……….Of course Satan has blinded the unbelievers eyes; its called EVOLUTION. It gives them a reason NOT to believe that which creation bears witness to and to then live in darkness – by choice.

So, in short… I disagree.