Calvinist Arminian dialog

[OzSpen]

I'll stick with the Bible on this one - read Romans 8 for details.

I also stick with the Bible and find that it teaches God's amazing prevenient grace.

Let’s check out the Scriptures. I find that prevenient grace is still amazing grace for these biblical reasons:http://spencer.gear.dyndns.org/2011/10/04/is-prevenient-grace-still-amazing-grace/#_ftn8_8752

1. God must take the initiative if human beings are to be saved to enjoy eternal life. God’s common grace will not bring people to salvation. That God took the initiative in salvation is shown by what he did with Adam & Eve after the fall into sin (Gen. 3:8-9). Even after they became fallen human beings, they were still able to hear the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden and the Lord God called on the man and that man was able to hear God – even though ‘totally depraved’.
2. We know this from the teachings of Isa. 59:15-16 and John 15:16. Paul told us in Rom. 2:4 that God’s kindness was designed to lead people to repentance.
3. In accepting prevenient grace, I understand that God, in his amazing grace, has made it possible for all people to be saved (e.g. 2 Peter 3:9; 1 John 2:2; Titus 2:11). With Titus 2:11, this amazing grace of God has appeared ‘bringing salvation for all people’ (ESV) or ‘the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men’ (NIV).
4. The result is that the human will is freed in relation to salvation. This is what is implied in the OT and NT exhortations to turn to God (see Prov. 1:23; Isa. 31:6; Matt. 18:3; Acts 3:19), to repent (1 Kings 8:47; Mark 1:15; Luke 13:3, 5; Acts 2:38; 17:30), and to believe (2 Chron 20:20: Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31; Phil 1:29; 1 John 3:23).
5. We must remember what this means. It DOES NOT mean that prevenient grace makes it possible for a human being to change the permanent bent/nature of his will in favour of God. It does not mean that a person can stop sinning in the natural and make herself/himself acceptable to God. It does mean that a person can make an initial response to God (as with Adam & Eve) and God can give repentance and faith. God can say as he stated in Jeremiah 31:18, “Bring me back that I may be restored, for you are the Lord my God”. Or, “Restore us again, O God of our salvation, and put away your indignation toward us” (Ps. 85:4). God does it, but not without ‘restore us again” or “bring me back”. This truly is amazing grace. If we can say this, God has granted us a measure of freedom to respond to him – truly amazing grace. This means that in some way God has enabled us to act contrary to our fallen nature. If we will say this much, ‘bring me back’, God will grant a person repentance (“Acts 5:32; 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25) and faith (Rom. 12:3; 2 Peter 1:1).
6. God’s amazing prevenient grace has enabled human beings to have this opportunity to respond to God. It is a resistible grace, but God has enabled the will to respond to Him.
7. So prevenient grace is amazing, God-sent grace.

This is amazing prevenient grace that enables all human beings to have the free will to say yea or nay to God.

I have received considerable help in preparing this information from Henry C. Thiessen (1949:155-156). Until his death, Thiessen was on the faculty of Wheaton College.

Oz

Bibliography

Thiessen, H C 1949. Introductory Lectures in Systematic Theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

 

[OzSpen]

Joshua told them to choose from between their false gods. He never asked them to choose between their false gods, or the Real God.

He didn't say "choose this day whom you will server, whether the gods of the Amorites, or the gods your fathers served, or the Lord".

thus, you are using that verse out of context. you are using it in application for something it doesn't even support.

That is not what it says in context. Joshua 24:14-17 reads:

14 “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
16 Then the people answered, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods, 17 for it is the Lord our God who brought us and our fathers up from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, and who did those great signs in our sight and preserved us in all the way that we went, and among all the peoples through whom we passed.

Note the points in context:

1. 'Fear the Lord and serve him' (v 14). This is a command to fear the Lord God.
2. 'Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord' (v 14). So their fathers served foreign 'gods' and they were commanded to fear the Lord God and to put away foreign Gods. The choice was between the Lord God and false gods. Your charge against me is thus shown to be false.
3. v. 15 makes the choice clear: Serve the Lord OR the gods your fathers served OR the gods of the Amorites. They were told that they had a choice to make. That's what this verse states. It's a similar choice to what Adam had in the garden to choose between the tree of knowledge of good or evil. He chose the evil and we've had to struggle with sinful vs godly choices ever since. That's Bible.
4. The people chose to not forsake the Lord and serve other gods (v 16). They had a choice. The 'choose this day whom you will serve' was as real for them as it is for us today.
5. Then evidence is given for the nature of the actions of the Lord God and how he had acted on their behalf in the past. Interesting, isn't it?, of God providing evidence of his actions on their behalf.

I find your charge that Joshua 'never asked them to choose between their false gods, or the Real God', to be false - based on the biblical evidence from Joshua 24.

In my country, when the politicians do this kind of thing in interviews, some commentators call it 'spin'.


Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Then who are these that this passage is talking about in Romans 1 that God has written on their hearts and put in His creation to know the Godhead exist and that then they refused it. It says what they knew they suppressed, therefore, God gave them over. Looking at the verbs that are used in the critical verses here below will show that they are in the active voice meaning the persons being without excuse performed the actions described. So tell me what this passage is saying to you. Thanks

Rom 1:18-28

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.​

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.​

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.​

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting.​

Thanks a million for being here to provide this balanced treatment.

May God bless you in your pursuit of biblical understanding. You have blessed me to see that I'm not alone in providing a biblical exposition that contradicts some of the Reformed Calvinistic thinking that is often pushed on CF.

In Christ, Oz

 

[Skala]

I put out a freindly hand in friendship figured Spurgeon would be a good starting place. Then I was attacked by multiple people for trying to find comon ground.

But it's not common ground because you don't actually believe what Spurgeon says.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

"What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry

While this is true, it still must be exercised by faith, and that is not automatic, it is the person's decision to obey even though it is God working in them to will and to obey, Phil 2:13.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

There is a giant chasm between how regeneration comes about between a lot of Calvinist and others in the Christian community. The scriptures teach that one is born from above as they believe the Gospel and receive Christ by faith and they believe that one receives regeneration so that they can receive Him by faith. In other words, without any input of the person, they being an elect one are first regenerated made a new creation in Christ, then they can believe in Him. This is irresistible grace. If this is incorrect, let them respond.

 

[SeventhValley]

If someone is totally regenerated they would not have physical death. This dose not happen until the end of the world. So people cannot be totally regenerated till then. We can be partially regenerated.

Philippians 3:19-21 HCSB

Their end is destruction; their god is their stomach; their glory is in their shame. They are focused on earthly things, but our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. He will transform the body of our humble condition into the likeness of His glorious body, by the power that enables Him to subject everything to Himself.

 

[Skala]

While this is true, it still must be exercised by faith, and that is not automatic, it is the person's decision to obey even though it is God working in them to will and to obey, Phil 2:13.

Faith is the gift from God. it is not self-wrought by the sinner. God did not leave it up to chance that some people would be Christians. Faith is the byproduct of regeneration (1 Jn 5:1) and is God's gift to His elect which He chose to save from before the foundation of the world.

 

[Skala]

The scriptures teach that one is born from above as they believe the Gospel and receive Christ by faith

No they don't. Not a single time does the bible say that the new birth is predicated on the sinner first exercising faith. Not one single time. On the contrary we are given scripture's testimony that one cannot even see nor enter the kingdom without first being regenerated (John 3), those who are not regenerate cannot do anything pleasing to God (Rom 8:8), and without the Holy Spirit nobody can affirm that Jesus is Lord (1 Cor 12:3) and that faith is the byproduct of the new birth (1 Jn 5:1)

and they believe that one receives regeneration so that they can receive Him by faith. In other words, without any input of the person, they being an elect one are first regenerated made a new creation in Christ, then they can believe in Him. This is irresistible grace. If this is incorrect, let them respond.

it is correct. But there's a reason it's called the second birth, and not "the taking of medicine". You don't provide input for your first birth, do you?

Scripture gives 3 analogies for regeneration:
1) birth
2) creation
3) resurrection

In all 3 of those things, you don't provide input. The testimony of scripture is clear, regeneration is monergistic, the work of God alone. "The wind blows where it wishes, you hear the sound of it, but can't tell whence it cometh or whither it goeth. So it is with every one born of the Spirit"

Man doesn't "help himself" get born again. Such a notion is nonsensical.

 

[SeventhValley]

Revelation:4-5, 7-8 HCSB

But you have a few people in Sardis who have not defiled their clothes, and they will walk with Me in white, because they are worthy. In the same way, the victor will be dressed in white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name before My Father and before His angels. “Write to the angel of the church in Philadelphia: “The Holy One, the True One, the One who has the key of David, who opens and no one will close, and closes and no one opens says: I know your works. Because you have limited strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name, look, I have placed before you an open door that no one is able to close.

 

[SeventhValley]

II Corinthians:10-11 NKJV

For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

 

[SeventhValley]

Matthew:37 NKJV

For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Faith is the gift from God. it is not self-wrought by the sinner. God did not leave it up to chance that some people would be Christians. Faith is the byproduct of regeneration (1 Jn 5:1) and is God's gift to His elect which He chose to save from before the foundation of the world.

Faith is a gift which I do not dispute, nevertheless it comes through the word of God by the Holy Spirit convicting the sinner of their sin and the person then responds by the faith which is produced, or rejecting to respond, exactly as Paul taught in Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. So tell me this, does this passage teach that one trust after hearing the word of truth and having believed they were sealed? And all that receive Jesus are the elect which God before determined would be transformed into the image of His dear Son.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

No they don't. Not a single time does the bible say that the new birth is predicated on the sinner first exercising faith. Not one single time. On the contrary we are given scripture's testimony that one cannot even see nor enter the kingdom without first being regenerated (John 3), those who are not regenerate cannot do anything pleasing to God (Rom 8:8), and without the Holy Spirit nobody can affirm that Jesus is Lord (1 Cor 12:3) and that faith is the byproduct of the new birth (1 Jn 5:1)

As you say, on the contrary scripture does say as Eph 1:13 stated in the earlier post that after hearing the word of truth they believed and then were sealed. Also by example, when the jailer asked Paul how to be saved, Paul instructed him by saying, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, then Paul preached the word to him and his household and they believed and were saved. That is the basic teaching of scripture. It is not taught that one is regenerated in order to be saved, but that they are saved when they believe the gospel, that is called faith, and without faith it is impossible to please God. John 3 is not teaching regeneration as you describe it to get saved, but that the new birth will enable those who receive it to enter the kingdom of God and as John MacArthur says, that is talking about those who will enter the kingdom of God during the 1000 years reign of Christ on earth. Jesus said in Luke that the kingdom of God is within the believer at conversion, but Jesus was telling the teacher of Israel about entering the kingdom reign by saying except one is born again they would not see, nor enter that kingdom apart from the new birth. Being born from above is not taught before one can believe, but following one believing and confessing Christ. Rom 10:9-10 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe with your heart that God raised Him from the dead and you shall be saved. It's always in this order.

it is correct. But there's a reason it's called the second birth, and not "the taking of medicine". You don't provide input for your first birth, do you?

No and that is not what is being taught in scripture nor is that ever evening mentioned as proof in scripture. Just what some people seem to believe is a clever question, but actually has no bearing on the new birth. Did you believe you were going to be born the first time before you were even born would be what you must believe if it has any merit to your question.

Scripture gives 3 analogies for regeneration:
1) birth
2) creation
3) resurrection

In all 3 of those things, you don't provide input. The testimony of scripture is clear, regeneration is monergistic, the work of God alone. "The wind blows where it wishes, you hear the sound of it, but can't tell whence it cometh or whither it goeth. So it is with every one born of the Spirit"

Man doesn't "help himself" get born again. Such a notion is nonsensical.

Those questions like you pose are foolish and have no scriptural bearing, they only satisfy the ones that make them. You are presupposing that I believe that man first seeks God even though I have never said a statement like that, and have in fact said that man only can respond to God seeking the sinner. Your view says that God seeks His sheep before they become His sheep. You say they are born from above before they ever exercise faith in order that they may believe and neither of these are taught in scripture but you insist on making foolish statements like you have above. At least show in scripture your proof text because the ones you show above do not prove your point.

And if man has no input in the new birth, let me ask you this then, if the person never confesses Jesus as Romans 10 says, will that person be saved regardless of not confessing Jesus?

 

[SeventhValley]

<edit>

Reformed Arminian=Classical Arminian as apposed to Wesleyan Arminian.

Similar to how you have Reformed=Baptist,Presbyterian,non-denom

Classical Calvinist=Presbyterian(aka infant baptizers)

4 point Calvinism=Amyraldism

Neo-Calvinism=Kuyperism

Hyper Calvinism etc....If I was not Arminian I would be a Hyper Calvinist

 

[Skala]

Faith is a gift which I do not dispute, nevertheless it comes through the word of God by the Holy Spirit convicting the sinner of their sin and the person then responds by the faith which is produced, or rejecting to respond, exactly as Paul taught in Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. So tell me this, does this passage teach that one trust after hearing the word of truth and having believed they were sealed? And all that receive Jesus are the elect which God before determined would be transformed into the image of His dear Son.

Aren't you assuming that "sealed" is synonymous with regeneration? Regeneration is described as a quickening, a being made alive, or a new birth, or a new creation.

 

[Skala]

Faith is a gift which I do not dispute"

Mere lip service to the concept. You don't truly believe faith is a gift in any meaningful sense. What you mean is "the choice to believe in Christ is a gift", not that faith, believing in Christ itself is a gift.

 

[OzSpen]

<edit>
Jacob Arminius (the father of Reformed Arminianism) promoted Reformed doctrine to his dying day.

I do not find that Calvinism got it right with unconditional election (with its obvious corollary of unconditional reprobation) as I consider that it violates the fundamentals of the goodness, love and justice of the Lord God Almighty.

​

This publication, 4 views of eternal security, edited by J Matthew Pinson (Zondervan) contains the Reformed Arminianism view of eternal security by Stephen M Ashby.

See William Birch's article, 'Demarcating Wesleyan-Arminianism and Reformed Arminianism'.

Oz

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Aren't you assuming that "sealed" is synonymous with regeneration? Regeneration is described as a quickening, a being made alive, or a new birth, or a new creation.

The scriptures speak for themselves and it would seem that it is you assuming that your logic here is scriptural. And of course it's not, one is sealed upon believing in Christ, are you now assuming that God wouldn't know if they truly believed or not?

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Mere lip service to the concept. You don't truly believe faith is a gift in any meaningful sense. What you mean is "the choice to believe in Christ is a gift", not that faith, believing in Christ itself is a gift.

I can see why you would want to pretend to know what I really think, because what you know and I challenged you have no answer for from scripture. I have answered from scripture and always use them to support my convictions, so no, Eph 2:8-9 is clear as to what saving faith is and from where it comes, "for by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast".