Calvinist Arminian dialog

[Skala]

I can see why you would want to pretend to know what I really think, because what you know and I challenged you have no answer for from scripture. I have answered from scripture and always use them to support my convictions, so no, Eph 2:8-9 are clear as to what saving faith is and from where it comes, "for by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast".

i agree, faith is the gift of God.

Who does he give this gift to?

answer: only his elect that He chose to save from before the foundation of the world.

Why do you think anyone at all believes in Christ?

 

[SeventhValley]

God gives faith to all (otherwise man has an excuse)but it can be rejected.

I Timothy 1:19 NKJV

having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck,

 

[Skala]

God gives faith to all (otherwise man has an excuse)but it can be rejected.

No he doesn't

Not all men have faith 2 Thess 3:2

 

[SeventhValley]

They only do not have it because they have rejected it and shipwrecked.

Jesus draws all people to himself but some reject him.

Romans 11:21-22 HCSB

For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you — if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

i agree, faith is the gift of God.

Who does he give this gift to?

John 1:12 to as many as receive Him to them gave He the power to become the children of God to those who believe in His name. You will notice that they become His children, they were not already His children.

answer: only his elect that He chose to save from before the foundation of the world.

Those elected are those who believe in His dear Son, these God chose in Him before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. This is who God elected in Christ, to as many as receive Him, to them gave He the power to become children of God, to them that believe on Him. He has mercy on whom He will, He will have mercy on those who believe in His Son just as these verses say.1 Cor 1:21
For since, in the http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn2 http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref1

Why do you think anyone at all believes in Christ?

Because they believe the gospel, that God sent His Son into the world to save sinners, not saints, nor His sheep, but sinners who by faith becomes saints, set apart in Christ Jesus who become His sheep, He being the Chief Shepherd. For I am not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and then to the Greeks(Rom 1:16) John 3:16-17 for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life, 17 for God did not sent His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved. I believe what is written, not what others say it really means, but the words that He actually spoke, like whosoever means whosoever, and all means all and the world means the world. Now others have to make up their own minds which to believe.

 

[OzSpen]

I can see why you would want to pretend to know what I really think, because what you know and I challenged you have no answer for from scripture. I have answered from scripture and always use them to support my convictions, so no, Eph 2:8-9 are clear as to what saving faith is and from where it comes, "for by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast".

Let’s look at the gender of some of the nouns and the demonstrative pronoun in this verse:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8 ESV).
​

• The noun, grace - charis - is feminine gender;
• The noun, faith – pistis – is feminine gender;
• The demonstrative pronoun, this/that – touto – is neuter gender.

So it is very clear in Greek that touto, neuter, cannot refer back to the feminine nouns – charis and pistis. If the demonstrative this/that was meant to refer to grace or faith, there is a perfectly good Greek way of expressing this. The demonstrative would be the feminine, taute.
To what does “this/that” refer if it is not to grace or faith? Verse 8 tells us that “it is the gift of God’, thus referring to salvation by grace through faith.


Oz

 

[Criada]

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[iwbswiaihl2]

Let’s look at the gender of some of the nouns and the demonstrative pronoun in this verse:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8 ESV).
​

• The noun, grace - charis - is feminine gender;
• The noun, faith – pistis – is feminine gender;
• The demonstrative pronoun, this/that – touto – is neuter gender.

So it is very clear in Greek that touto, neuter, cannot refer back to the feminine nouns – charis and pistis. If the demonstrative this/that was meant to refer to grace or faith, there is a perfectly good Greek way of expressing this. The demonstrative would be the feminine, taute.
To what does “this/that” refer if it is not to grace or faith? Verse 8 tells us that “it is the gift of God’, thus referring to salvation by grace through faith.

Oz

Ok, I would agree, but why are you telling me this?

 

[SeventhValley]

Yes I see why Luther came to discourage talk about this subject.

I think I have came to the conclusion God's love is to encourage the lost his foreknowledge/predestination to encourage the saved. His wrath and hate to bring sorrow to the lost while showing his justice to all.

Beyond that the how and why that separates everyone is best left as a mystery.

 

[OzSpen]

Ok, I would agree, but why are you telling me this?

Because it was you who stated,

I can see why you would want to pretend to know what I really think, because what you know and I challenged you have no answer for from scripture. I have answered from scripture and always use them to support my convictions, so no, Eph 2:8-9 are clear as to what saving faith is and from where it comes, "for by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast".

To what does 'that' refer in Eph 2:8-9?

Oz

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Because it was you who stated,

To what does 'that' refer in Eph 2:8-9?

Oz

So simply by quoting a verse you read into what I was thinking or implied, that's pretty good, but doesn't express what I think as to its application. And in the post you reference, I was answering the one that I addressed in the post because he had stated that the person makes no input as to their salvation. I say that every person must by faith confess the Lord Jesus as their Savior according to the teachings of scripture, like Rom 10:9-10 for instance. But to answer your question,that would mean that it is by grace through faith and not by the person's works that would save them.

 

[Skala]

Because it was you who stated,

To what does 'that' refer in Eph 2:8-9?

Oz

The collective phrase: "By grace are you saved through faith"

The whole process of an unbeliever becoming a believer is God's doing, God's gift, so that we cannot take credit for any of it.

 

[SeventhValley]

Yes God draws all,without God we can do nothing. We also have to stay in Christ or Christ will reject us and we will be cut off.

 

[Hentenza]

Yes God draws all,without God we can do nothing. We also have to stay in Christ or Christ will reject us and we will be cut off.

Can Christ reject those that the Father has drawn?

 

[Skala]

Yes God draws all,without God we can do nothing. We also have to stay in Christ or Christ will reject us and we will be cut off.

We are not saved by the will, we are saved by grace.

The reason that there's any believers at all is not due to the fact that some people are just better than others, but because of God's grace and purpose of election.

 

[OzSpen]

The collective phrase: "By grace are you saved through faith"

The whole process of an unbeliever becoming a believer is God's doing, God's gift, so that we cannot take credit for any of it.

Thank you. 'That' in Eph 2:8-9 refers to salvation.

If I believed that human beings are not involved in responding to the Gospel, if I believed that the imperative, '[you] Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household' (Acts 16:31) does not mean 'you' are involved, I would be a Calvinist like yourself.

But I'm not, as I find that the Bible includes human responses to God's call.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

We are not saved by the will, we are saved by grace.

The reason that there's any believers at all is not due to the fact that some people are just better than others, but because of God's grace and purpose of election.

Acts 16:31 disagrees as it issues a command that requires a human response: '[You] Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household'.

The imperative means, 'you believe', and it's the Greek imperative. God commands a human response, 'You believe'.

 

[Keachian]

Can Christ reject those that the Father has drawn?

I think that's a bad question, of course Christ could reject those that the Father draws, the question should rather be focused upon whether the unity of the Triune God is such that the decision process could be anything but unanimous as to the application and granting of saving faith upon God's elect, to pit God the Son against God the Father is as Christ would say to have a Kingdom divided against itself.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Yes God draws all,without God we can do nothing. We also have to stay in Christ or Christ will reject us and we will be cut off.

One does not have to stay in Christ to be saved, one stays in Christ because they are saved. It is Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith, Heb 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1author and http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn2finisher of our faith, http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn3who for the joy that was set before Him http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn4endured the cross, despising the shame, and http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn5has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. The staying in Christ is the evidence of a true disciple, not the making of a true disciple, it's the result of being a true disciple, John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed". That is why He said in John 15 that the branches that are in the true vine bear fruit, those not in the true vine cannot bear good fruit and are thrown into the fire, John 15:5-8 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1fruit; for without Me you can do http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn2nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn3he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn4abide in you, http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn5you http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn6will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn7By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn8so you will be My disciples.

As this principle is taught in these different passages, including Eph :8-9, it is by the grace of God that one receives faith from the word of God convicting the heart of the sinner to believe, but the sinner must by faith, confess that He believes the gospel to be saved. Therefore, it is Jesus who is the author and finisher who starts and completes the purpose of God. Remembering John 6, all that the Father gives to Me will come to Me and he who comes to Me will in no wise be cast out. The true believer will abide in His word and this is what separates the living branches from the dead branches, just as good works show real faith and no good works declare a dead faith.http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn9 http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref1

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[tulipbee]

Yes God draws all,without God we can do nothing. We also have to stay in Christ or Christ will reject us and we will be cut off.

God the Father 'draws' us, and all whom are thus drawn
SHALL be raised-up on the Last Day (John 6:44).

The Greek word for "draw" is even rendered in the NT as "dragged".