Calvinism vs arminism

[Hammster]

doesn't change a person can chose, there is a choice. It is clear God gave Adam and Eve a choice, they were not hostel to God because of a fallen nature, they had no fallen nature. They had a choice to obey God or not, just like every Human has a choice to obey or not.

How is it fair to punish some one who had no choice and simple did what they were program for, A person Goes to hell because of the choices they make, they are punished for rejecting God because they had the choice to accept or reject.

What would make someone believe something that they think is false?

 

[Bluelion]

What would make someone believe something that they think is false?

How do you read a book in the dark? turn on the light, yes some prefer the dark so even though the light is turned on and they can read the book the throw the book and go back to the shadows they prefer. Now did that person have a choice, sure they could have read the book stayed in the light, the fact the love the dark does not change the fact they had a chance to love the light.

 

[Hammster]

How do you read a book in the dark? turn on the light, yes some prefer the dark so even though the light is turned on and they can read the book the throw the book and go back to the shadows they prefer. Now did that person have a choice, sure they could have read the book stayed in the light, the fact the love the dark does not change the fact they had a chance to love the light.

What if they don't believe what you are saying? What if they think it's just a big lie? What would make them believe?

 

[Bluelion]

What if they don't believe what you are saying? What if they think it's just a big lie? What would make them believe?

I answered sorry you did not understand, but you have your answer.

 

[Hammster]

I answered sorry you did not understand, but you have your answer.

Do you think that someone can just choose to believe something, even if they initially don't believe it? In other words, just by their free will?

 

[DeaconDean]

Good Day, Dean

For as great as Calvin was, he never claimed to be infallible.


In Him,

Bill

Are any of us?

I only know of One who was "infallible", and I am in no way Him!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Bluelion]

Do you think that someone can just choose to believe something, even if they initially don't believe it? In other words, just by their free will?

can a person choose to believe say evolution or reject it?

 

[Hammster]

can a person choose to believe say evolution or reject it?

Use whatever. Can you just decide to believe something is true that you think is false?

 

[DeaconDean]

doesn't change a person can chose, there is a choice. It is clear God gave Adam and Eve a choice, they were not hostel to God because of a fallen nature, they had no fallen nature. They had a choice to obey God or not, just like every Human has a choice to obey or not.

I only want to point something out here.

You really should take the time to read what Arthur W. Pink wrote concerning Adam.

Yes, Adam's will was "free", it was free in both directions. To do good or to do evil.

However, Adam differed in a very great way from the rest of humanity.

Here I quote:

In unfallen Adam the will was free, free in both directions, free toward good and free toward evil. Adam was created in a state of Innocency, but not in a state of holiness, as is so often assumed and asserted. Adam’s will was therefore in a condition of moral equipoise: that is to say, in Adam there was no constraining bias in him toward either good or evil, and as such, Adam differed radically from all his descendants, as well as from "the Man Christ Jesus." But with the sinner it is far otherwise. The sinner is born with a will that is not in a condition of moral equipoise, because in him there is a heart that is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked," and this gives him a bias toward evil.

Arthur W. Pink. The Sovereignty of God, Chapter 7, The Sovereignty of God and the Human Will, 2. The Bondage of the Will

Mankind, as a result of Adam's actions, is not "free" as most would have us to believe.

Question: How many times must one go to church and listen the preacher, before they actually hear the preacher?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Bluelion]

Use whatever. Can you just decide to believe something is true that you think is false?

I would ask how the person came to believe it was false to start with, are you saying this mystery person was just born with a set of beliefs? Gays say the same thing they were born that way. If that is true why punishment for them being the way God made them? What is the offense? God made them against the Law you think then He will punish them for that?

But God did not even make satan evil but an angel and he chose evil. To believe something is true or false there must first be choice, no one is born with set beliefs. Like no one is born gay.

 

[Bluelion]

I only want to point something out here.

You really should take the time to read what Arthur W. Pink wrote concerning Adam.

Yes, Adam's will was "free", it was free in both directions. To do good or to do evil.

However, Adam differed in a very great way from the rest of humanity.

Here I quote:



Arthur W. Pink. The Sovereignty of God, Chapter 7, The Sovereignty of God and the Human Will, 2. The Bondage of the Will

Mankind, as a result of Adam's actions, is not "free" as most would have us to believe.

Question: How many times must one go to church and listen the preacher, before they actually hear the preacher?

God Bless

Till all are one.

well that is true we were born slaves to the ruler of this world. While man has a nature of sin, God Laws were written on his heart. i don't know where But I know it says it that gentiles were not guiltless because the new when they did wrong their heart told them it was wrong yet they did it any way, that they new right from wrong, for God's laws are written on our hearts. Jesus points to this saying if you who are wicked know how to give good give how much more so then your Father in Heaven. I understand what Jesus was saying here but was he not also saying. The wicked new what was good they give it to there children,, so they know right from wrong, however they are wicked because they love not God. but them selves.

 

[Hammster]

I would ask how the person came to believe it was false to start with, are you saying this mystery person was just born with a set of beliefs? Gays say the same thing they were born that way. If that is true why punishment for them being the way God made them? What is the offense? God made them against the Law you think then He will punish them for that?

But God did not even make satan evil but an angel and he chose evil. To believe something is true or false there must first be choice, no one is born with set beliefs. Like no one is born gay.

I'm really not sure why you aren't answering the questions I'm asking. Yes, you've quoted them. But your posts aren't even close to answering them.

I'll try again. Can you decide to believe something that you think is false?

 

[DeaconDean]

well that is true we were born slaves to the ruler of this world. While man has a nature of sin, God Laws were written on his heart.

I think you need to go back and read that again.

Hebrews 8:10; 10:16 says that. But in the context of Hebrews, it was addressed to Jewish Christians. (Key here is past tense)

i don't know where But I know it says it that gentiles were not guiltless because the new when they did wrong their heart told them it was wrong yet they did it any way, that they new right from wrong, for God's laws are written on our hearts.

I think you mean Rom. 2:14-15.

John Gill wrote concerning this saying:

Ver. 14. For when the Gentiles which have not the law,.... The objection of the Gentiles against their condemnation, taken from their being without the law, is here obviated. The apostle owns that they had not the law, that is, the written law of Moses, and yet intimates that they had, and must have a law, against which they sinned, and so deserved punishment, and which they in part obeyed; for these men

do by nature the things contained in the law. The matter and substance of the moral law of Moses agrees with the law and light of nature; and the Gentiles in some measure, and in some sort, did these things by nature; not that men by the mere strength of nature without the grace of God, can fulfil the law, or do anything that is acceptable to God; and indeed, what these men did was merely natural and carnal, and so unacceptable to God. Some understand this of nature assisted by grace, in converted Gentiles, whether before or after the coming of Christ; others expound the phrase, by nature, freely, willingly, in opposition to the servile spirit of the Jews, in their obedience to the law; though it rather seems to design the dictates of natural reason, by which they acted: and so

these having not the law, the written law,

are a law to themselves; which they have by nature and use, and which natural reason dictates to them. So Plato distinguishes the law

"into written and un written {q}: the written law is that which was used in commonwealths; and that kata eyh
ginomenov, "which was according to custom or nature", was called unwritten, such as not to go to market naked, nor to be clothed with women's clothes; which things were not forbidden by any law, but these were not done because forbidden by the unwritten law;''

which he calls "unwritten", because not written on tables, or with ink; otherwise it was written in their minds, and which by nature and use they were accustomed to.

{q} Laertii Vit. Philosoph. l. 3. in Vita Platon.

Ver. 15. Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,.... Though the Gentiles had not the law in form, written on tables, or in a book, yet they had "the work", the matter, the sum and substance of it in their minds; as appears by the practices of many of them, in their external conversation. The moral law, in its purity and perfection, was written on the heart of Adam in his first creation; was sadly obliterated by his sin and fall; upon several accounts, and to answer various purposes, a system of laws was written on tables of stone for the use of the Israelites; and in regeneration the law is reinscribed on the hearts of God's people; and even among the Gentiles, and in their hearts, there are some remains of the old law and light of nature, which as by their outward conduct appears, so by the inward motions of their minds,

their conscience also bearing witness; for, as the Jews say {r}
wb hdyem Mda lv wtmvn, "the soul of a man witnesses in him"; for, or against him:

and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another; and this the Heathens themselves acknowledge, when they {s} speak of

"tameion dikasthrion kai krithrion thv suneidhsewv, "the conclave, tribunal and judgment of conscience"; and which they call dikasthn dikaiotaton, "the most righteous judge": whose judgment reason receives, and gives its suffrage to, whether worthy of approbation or reproof; when it reads in the memory as if written on a table the things that are done, and then beholding the law as an exemplar, pronounces itself either worthy of honour or dishonour.''

{r} T. Bab. Chagigah, fol. 16. 1. & Taanith, fol. 11. 1. {s} Hierocles in Carmina Pythagor. p. 81, 206, 209, 213, 214.

Source

We are all taught various things in life. How many times did you get your hand slapped for playing in an ash tray before you learnt that was wrong?

Jesus points to this saying if you who are wicked know how to give good give how much more so then your Father in Heaven. I understand what Jesus was saying here but was he not also saying. The wicked new what was good they give it to there children,, so they know right from wrong, however they are wicked because they love not God. but them selves.

I'm sorry, perhaps I'm so dense I can't see how this has to do with the current question.

God Bless

Till all are on e.

 

[Bluelion]

I'm really not sure why you aren't answering the questions I'm asking. Yes, you've quoted them. But your posts aren't even close to answering them.

I'll try again. Can you decide to believe something that you think is false?

wow your really having trouble unless someone directly tells you literally what they are saying.

My answer is the person already Chose to believe it is false, sure, why couldn't they then not change there mind and believe, yes they have a choice, yes they can chose to believe something. We are not mindless robots. People were once atheist yet chose to change that belief.

How about you answer some of my questions. and are you suggesting God forces a person to believe against there will?

 

[Hammster]

wow your really having trouble unless someone directly tells you literally what they are saying.

My answer is the person already Chose to believe it is false, sure, why couldn't they then not change there mind and believe, yes they have a choice, yes they can chose to believe something. We are not mindless robots. People were once atheist yet chose to change that belief.

For the sake of argument, would you line to put that to the test?

How about you answer some of my questions. and are you suggesting God forces a person to believe against there will?

No. Nobody can believe anything against their will.

 

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

wow your really having trouble unless someone directly tells you literally what they are saying.

If you'd answer the question instead of beating around the bush and never actually saying anything --like (now almost former) White House Press Secretary Jay Carney -- there wouldn't be "trouble." The "trouble" is the direct result of your endless equivocation.

 

[98cwitr]

For the sake of argument, would you line to put that to the test?

No. Nobody can believe anything against their will.

So then faith is self manifested then?

 

[Hammster]

So then faith is self manifested then?

No. It's natural for those born again to believe.

 

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

... those born again to believe.

Huh??

 

[Hammster]

Huh??

Those who are born again wi believe because it's in their new nature to do so.