Calvinism vs arminism

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

Those who are born again wi believe because it's in their new nature to do so.

Jesus did not use the term "born again" for anyone other than believers. You are not "born again" to believe, but are "born again" because you believe.

The term is not an indication of being among "the elect," which is, unfortunately, badly misunderstood in the Reformed camp anyway.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus did not use the term "born again" for anyone other than believers. You are not "born again" to believe, but are "born again" because you believe.

The term is not an indication of being among "the elect," which is, unfortunately, badly misunderstood in the Reformed camp anyway.

Sorry, but scripture doesn't back you up. Faith is the result of regeneration. Only Christ's sheep hear His voice and follow. And Jesus said that you can't even see the kingdom of God unless you are born again.

 

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

Sorry, but scripture doesn't back you up.

I'm sorry, but it does, most assuredly, and this ...

Faith is the result of regeneration.

... is beyond wrong.

Only Christ's sheep hear His voice and follow. And Jesus said that you can't even see the kingdom of God unless you are born again.

Certainly, but I can't believe you don't understand when He says "see the Kingdom" He is referring to His rights over you, regardless of whether you believe or not. If we "see" -- the Greek horao (see with the eyes or perceive with the mind) -- we are acknowledging those rights, and there is no way anyone acknowledges His rights unless that person "knows" Jesus -- believes in Him to a saving faith. Regeneration is almost -- but not quite -- simultaneous to faith, but it most assuredly does not precede it. That is impossible.

John 6, NASB
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

The drawing of v. 65 is not regeneration. Christ draws all men. We've had this discussion recently, to no avail, nor will it be now, as you reject the idea despite its biblical truth. Regeneration cannot occur until the Spirit indwells, and that is precisely what Christ says in this passage.

 

[Hammster]

I'm sorry, but it does, most assuredly, and this ... ... is beyond wrong.Certainly, but I can't believe you don't understand when He says "see the Kingdom" He is referring to His rights over you, regardless of whether you believe or not. If we "see" -- the Greek horao (see with the eyes or perceive with the mind) -- we are acknowledging those rights, and there is no way anyone acknowledges His rights unless that person "knows" Jesus -- believes in Him to a saving faith. Regeneration is almost -- but not quite -- simultaneous to faith, but it most assuredly does not precede it. That is impossible.

John 6, NASB
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

The drawing of v. 65 is not regeneration. Christ draws all men. We've had this discussion recently, to no avail, nor will it be now, as you reject the idea despite its biblical truth. Regeneration cannot occur until the Spirit indwells, and that is precisely what Christ says in this passage.

Actually, we didn't have this discussion as you avoided many questions.

 

[Bluelion]

For the sake of argument, would you line to put that to the test?

No. Nobody can believe anything against their will.

ok well how do we put that to the test.

I can think of one way you could tell me to believe in evolution. I could research it, but would not believe, because I believe my free will is gone, but I would chose not, even if i chose to believe, God would correct me, and I would have to betray my own heart to believe in evolution.

I don't believe like many do that we keep free will for ever, but we have one act of free will to chose between Good or evil, God or satan, once we chose God its over we are His, but a person can chose satan till death and if they repent on their death bed will be saved.

So you see we could not test it on me, so we would have to find an unbeliever and see if they chose not to believe or just could not. I really don't see how it could be tested. You have ideas?

 

[Bluelion]

I think you need to go back and read that again.

Hebrews 8:10; 10:16 says that. But in the context of Hebrews, it was addressed to Jewish Christians. (Key here is past tense)



I think you mean Rom. 2:14-15.

John Gill wrote concerning this saying:



Source

We are all taught various things in life. How many times did you get your hand slapped for playing in an ash tray before you learnt that was wrong?



I'm sorry, perhaps I'm so dense I can't see how this has to do with the current question.

God Bless

Till all are on e.

so wait are you saying we are not still born slaves? We are still born with a sinful nature, we still must be reborn.

 

[Hammster]

ok well how do we put that to the test.

I can think of one way you could tell me to believe in evolution. I could research it, but would not believe, because I believe my free will is gone, but I would chose not, even if i chose to believe, God would correct me, and I would have to betray my own heart to believe in evolution.

I don't believe like many do that we keep free will for ever, but we have one act of free will to chose between Good or evil, God or satan, once we chose God its over we are His, but a person can chose satan till death and if they repent on their death bed will be saved.

So you see we could not test it on me, so we would have to find an unbeliever and see if they chose not to believe or just could not. I really don't see how it could be tested. You have ideas?

No. Your views are now stranger than I first thought. Moving on.

 

[Bluelion]

No. Your views are now stranger than I first thought. Moving on.

always amazed at how you ask so many questions make no point, oh thanks for the insult Jesus teach to mock people did He?

because I know you will argue let me point out what you did.

You said my views were strange, stigma, Implied weird, attempting to sway me to your side by labeling me as not normal, implied something must be wrong with me cause I don't agree. Bully tactic.

Have training in psychology. Your not as slick as you think.

 

[Hammster]

always amazed at how you ask so many questions make no point, oh thanks for the insult Jesus teach to mock people did He?

because I know you will argue let me point out what you did.

You said my views were strange, stigma, Implied weird, attempting to sway me to your side by labeling me as not normal, implied something must be wrong with me cause I don't agree. Bully tactic.

Have training in psychology. Your not as slick as you think.

I'm not trying to sway you.

 

[Bluelion]

I'm not trying to sway you.

right

 

[Hammster]

right

You said you no longer have free will to choose anything. So I'll take you at you word.

 

[DeaconDean]

so wait are you saying we are not still born slaves? We are still born with a sinful nature, we still must be reborn.

I answered your questions except for the last part on giving ggod or bad gifts.

I fail to understand what it has to do with the discussion at hand.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Jesus did not use the term "born again" for anyone other than believers. You are not "born again" to believe, but are "born again" because you believe.

I'm sorry, but the biggest majority of Baptist theologians disagree with your accessment.

James P. Boyce, founder and theologian of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, wrote in 1887, his great work: "Abstract of Systematic Theology".

And in the table of contents, we see this outline:

Chapter XXXII: Regeneration and Conversion
Chapter XXXIII: Repentance
Chapter XXXIV: Faith

Sorry, but the facts don't add up your way.

And in what is considered the very first systematic theology written by a Baptist for Baptists, John Leland Dagg (Manual of Theology) disagrees with you.

Section 4. Regeneration

Now granted you might not be Southern Baptist, but I am.

And generally, Baptists have been, since 1742, on the Reformed/Calvinist side.

Sorry.

The term is not an indication of being among "the elect," which is, unfortunately, badly misunderstood in the Reformed camp anyway.

Please explain, i'm dense.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Bluelion]

You said you no longer have free will to choose anything. So I'll take you at you word.

did say anything Just anything against God. I can chose what to eat drink, but not what i do with my life any longer.

 

[Bluelion]

I answered your questions except for the last part on giving ggod or bad gifts.

I fail to understand what it has to do with the discussion at hand.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I was using it to say if the wicked know how to give a good gift they know what is right, they can not use the excuse i did not know it was wrong because they knew in their hearts what right and wrong was.

I am not sure i follow your first answer, I read Hebrews. Is God saying all are now born knowing right from wrong? But were not before. The new covenant is this but the old was not? How did gentiles have such great faith with out hearing God's word? When Jesus walked the earth?

It would appear I am the one dense.

 

[Hammster]

did say anything Just anything against God. I can chose what to eat drink, but not what i do with my life any longer.

You can only choose what you desire. That's not free will.

 

[DeaconDean]

I was using it to say if the wicked know how to give a good gift they know what is right, they can not use the excuse i did not know it was wrong because they knew in their hearts what right and wrong was.

I am not sure i follow your first answer, I read Hebrews. Is God saying all are now born knowing right from wrong? But were not before. The new covenant is this but the old was not? How did gentiles have such great faith with out hearing God's word? When Jesus walked the earth?

It would appear I am the one dense.

Again, context is the biggest rule here.

What was it Jesus was saying?

John Gill comments:

Matthew 7:11

If ye then being evil,

As all mankind in general are, both by nature and practice: they are conceived in sin, shapen in iniquity; are evil from their youth, and transgressors from the womb; are corrupt, and do abominable things; and such these Jews were Christ speaks unto; and who, very likely, has respect chiefly to the evil of covetousness they were addicted to. The argument is taken from the lesser to the greater, and runs thus; that if ye, who are but men, men on earth, yea evil men, not over liberal and beneficent, nay covetous and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]rdly,

know how to give good gifts unto your children;

can find in your hearts, having it in the power of your hands, to give suitable provisions for the support and sustenance of your children;

how much more shall your Father, which is in heaven;

who is omniscient and omnipotent; who knows the persons and wants of his children, and what is proper for them, and is able to relieve them, being Lord of heaven and earth,

give good things to them that ask him?

Not only temporal good things, as meat, drink, and clothing; but all spiritual good things; every supply of grace; all things pertaining to life and godliness. In ( Luke 11:13 ) "the Holy Spirit" is mentioned, and so seems to design his gifts and graces, everything that is necessary for the spiritual and eternal good of his people: but for these things he must be inquired of, and sought after; and it is the least saints can do to ask for them; and they have encouragement enough to ask; for it is but ask and have.

Matthew 7:11 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

So the answer is, this passage has nothing to do with "the law written on their hearts".

The correct answer is, you being evil can give good things to your children, how much more, and better will God give us who are evil if we only ask?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Bluelion]

You can only choose what you desire. That's not free will.

most of what I desire i hate, if given the choice i would never fall to desire. i would free my body from sin because I hate being this close to it and I would leave this world. It was not in me of my self to hate sin, or petty self indulgent desires, but being born of spirit God is shaping me in His image so i now Hate those things i once turned to. I was willing to be changed, my choice, and God has been changing me, something I have nothing to do with.

 

[DeaconDean]

I am not sure i follow your first answer, I read Hebrews. Is God saying all are now born knowing right from wrong? But were not before. The new covenant is this but the old was not? How did gentiles have such great faith with out hearing God's word? When Jesus walked the earth?

It would appear I am the one dense.

Please excuse that, I was confused and referenced that to somebody else, but instead it was included in my post by mistake.

My apologies.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Bluelion]

Again, context is the biggest rule here.

What was it Jesus was saying?

John Gill comments:



Matthew 7:11 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

So the answer is, this passage has nothing to do with "the law written on their hearts".

The correct answer is, you being evil can give good things to your children, how much more, and better will God give us who are evil if we only ask?

God Bless

Till all are one.

well thank you for explaining, your right context I was taught that.

Can I say it is a joy conversing with you. You are very through and always give references. I have not found you to preach against God's word, and you have been gracious to me in-spite of my difficulties.

thank you