Calvinism vs arminism

[th1bill]

I am not intending to "fight" you, I am simply trying to get you to think logically and consistently about your own position.

To ignore these questions is intellectually dishonest and to stick your head in the sand.

It is the duty of each person interested in the truth to not be afraid to deal with the implications of his/her viewpoint.

Men's logic has given us both of the incorrect but predominant positions on the Bible because man's ways are not God's ways. I'm going to continue to submit, as the Word teaches us, to the will of our LORD.

 

[Skala]

Men's logic has given us both of the incorrect but predominant positions on the Bible because man's ways are not God's ways. I'm going to continue to submit, as the Word teaches us, to the will of our LORD.

I think you are confusing logic with reasoning.

Anyway, you cannot accuse people of believing "God creates people for hell" when you cannot even demonstrate how you don't believe it, too. You have shied away from actually interacting with my arguments and questions. I wonder why. It's because you cannot give a satisfactory answer. You refuse to follow your position to its logical ends.

I asked you why God creates people he knows will end up in hell. You never answered. Why did he create them? Was he hoping they wouldn't end up in hell? Was he hoping he wasn't omniscient and didn't know the future perfectly?

If he was hoping they wouldn't end up in hell, why did he create them? He could have simply not created them, both sparing their fate and getting want he wanted.

Was he hoping to prove his omniscience wrong? To deny his very Deity? To deny what makes him God? Not likely.

 

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

Skala, please take note of these Scriptures:

John 6, NASB
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.​

That would presume to teach total depravity, or more accurately, total inability. But then we see this:

John 12
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
​

The Calvinist/Reformed will argue, " 'All' doesn't mean 'all,' " which is the most ridiculous argument imaginable. There is no qualifier, no "type" in this passage that would limit the meaning of the Greek pas to a subset of "all." It means what it says: "All," everyone, everything, any, the whole, all things (or people). God draws all men to Himself through Christ. No man can come without being drawn.

Romans 120 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
​

Once drawn and called, the Holy Spirit opens the spirit and soul to the truth of Scripture, that we stand in need of a Savior.

John 16
8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
​

Two points: First, "the world" is not just a select subset of people. It is the Greek kosmos. In this context, it can mean nothing other than "the inhabitants of Earth, men, the human family." No twisting or superhuman effort can make it say anything other than what it says. Second, once convicted, the ball is in the court of the sinner. He/she either believes what the Holy Spirit reveals, or he/she does not. That is where man's responsibility come in, co-equal with God's sovereignty.

That is the mystery of the Gospel. God is absolutely sovereign. Man is absolutely responsible. How can that be? We'll understand it when we are in heaven, perhaps. But those dual truths cannot be denied, no matter how hard any Calvinist/Reformed tries.

 

[Bluelion]

It is clear that you don't know what is meant by the doctrine "Irresistible Grace"

It doesn't mean God's grace cannot be resisted. In fact, due to Total Depravity, God's grace is resisted every single day.

Irresistible grace refers to the fact that regeneration is monergistic. That is, God alone is the sole party in a man's regeneration. A person is dead, and God makes him alive. The man does not cooperate with God in his being made alive, because that is absurd on the face of it. A dead man does not assist in his own resurrection. He is simply the passive recipient of effectual resurrection.

"You were dead, and God made you alive. By grace you have been saved" Ephesians 2

so it doesn't say what it says, right The doctrine takes free will out of the equation. Man has free will to choose God or reject Him. That is the choice given to all mankind not just the select few.

God draws men to him yes, but man can still reject that. As shown in judas

 

[th1bill]

I think you are confusing logic with reasoning.

No, I'm not guilty of the charge. It is faith and nothing more. Any way, I answered, but to expound, Man is the Crown Jewel of His crdeation, when God created man last, He said, "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good," and man was created in His image, every one of us.

Rhetorical question; Do you or did you strive to bear any of your children so they could go to Hell? Love is a powerful mover nd we were created in the image of God but no sane man believes God looks like Bill Taylor and yet I am the image of God. Something about every one of us is just like God.

Anyway, you cannot accuse people of believing "God creates people for hell" when you cannot even demonstrate how you don't believe it, too. You have shied away from actually interacting with my arguments and questions. I wonder why. It's because you cannot give a satisfactory answer. You refuse to follow your position to its logical ends.

And ad-homonym attacks will not get you an answer but if you read the TOS you'll find such is forbidden.

I asked you why God creates people he knows will end up in hell. You never answered. Why did he create them? Was he hoping they wouldn't end up in hell? Was he hoping he wasn't omniscient and didn't know the future perfectly?

And when I get to Heaven, if I find it important at some point in Eternity, I'll try to remember to ask the Father or Jesus.

If he was hoping they wouldn't end up in hell, why did he create them? He could have simply not created them, both sparing their fate and getting want he wanted.

Was he hoping to prove his omniscience wrong? To deny his very Deity? To deny what makes him God? Not likely.

I'll say this, you're talented at repeating the same question over and over but that is rude and too much like the Atheist's dogma to be satisfactory.

Faith and relationship through faith is the basis for Christianity. There is an element of e very silly denomination in the Christian Faith that has degenerated the pure faith into a religion and religion requires proofs. But for the few that believe to the point of faith and relationship through the Holy Spirit, we have all the proof we need without the proof of some material observation that has naught to do with anything spiritual.

Praying God will bless you with His indwelling.

 

[th1bill]

so it doesn't say what it says, right The doctrine takes free will out of the equation. Man has free will to choose God or reject Him. That is the choice given to all mankind not just the select few.

God draws men to him yes, but man can still reject that. As shown in judas

That is so on the mark, BL.
God bless.

 

[th1bill]

Skala, please take note of these Scriptures:

John 6, NASB
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.​

That would presume to teach total depravity, or more accurately, total inability. But then we see this:

John 12
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
​

The Calvinist/Reformed will argue, " 'All' doesn't mean 'all,' " which is the most ridiculous argument imaginable. There is no qualifier, no "type" in this passage that would limit the meaning of the Greek pas to a subset of "all." It means what it says: "All," everyone, everything, any, the whole, all things (or people). God draws all men to Himself through Christ. No man can come without being drawn.

Romans 120 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
​

Once drawn and called, the Holy Spirit opens the spirit and soul to the truth of Scripture, that we stand in need of a Savior.

John 16
8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
​

Two points: First, "the world" is not just a select subset of people. It is the Greek kosmos. In this context, it can mean nothing other than "the inhabitants of Earth, men, the human family." No twisting or superhuman effort can make it say anything other than what it says. Second, once convicted, the ball is in the court of the sinner. He/she either believes what the Holy Spirit reveals, or he/she does not. That is where man's responsibility come in, co-equal with God's sovereignty.

That is the mystery of the Gospel. God is absolutely sovereign. Man is absolutely responsible. How can that be? We'll understand it when we are in heaven, perhaps. But those dual truths cannot be denied, no matter how hard any Calvinist/Reformed tries.

Awesome reply brother.

 

[Bluelion]

That is so on the mark, BL.
God bless.

I am Glad we agree

 

[th1bill]

I am Glad we agree

The followers of Jesus are not nearly as many as attend the service on Sunday Morning but for those of us, faulty as we all are, that have chosen the Narrow Gate, the Spiritual Path, have much more in common than we have in difference. Now, if we could, just, get all of the Faith Based to drop the outer appearance and agree to disagree when we need to, we could steel the world from Satan in less than 10 years.

Imagine, Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals and the other denominations Faith Based members marching toward the Cross, hand in hand. I did the Prison ministry with a Pentecostal for a couple of years and God blessed with over 400 professions of Faith. You know, it was all worth it because AI do believe that at least one or two of those were true conversions. One, Smiling Mike, a Cop Killer at 17 and Paroled after 35 years of his Life Sentence was for certain. But we had to work with him for better than a year to teach him he did not need to rob a 7 11 to get back inside the Walls to know how to live. He never misses Church but the changes after 35 years were staggering for him. It took a trilateral faith effort to work God's plan for him, but together, Baptist, Catholic and Pentecostal, we all submitted to God's will and He pulled it off through us.

God bless brother.

 

[Hammster]

Skala, please take note of these Scriptures:

John 6, NASB
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.​

That would presume to teach total depravity, or more accurately, total inability. But then we see this:

John 12
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
​

The Calvinist/Reformed will argue, " 'All' doesn't mean 'all,' " which is the most ridiculous argument imaginable. There is no qualifier, no "type" in this passage that would limit the meaning of the Greek pas to a subset of "all." It means what it says: "All," everyone, everything, any, the whole, all things (or people). God draws all men to Himself through Christ. No man can come without being drawn.

Romans 120 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
​

Once drawn and called, the Holy Spirit opens the spirit and soul to the truth of Scripture, that we stand in need of a Savior.

John 16
8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
​

Two points: First, "the world" is not just a select subset of people. It is the Greek kosmos. In this context, it can mean nothing other than "the inhabitants of Earth, men, the human family." No twisting or superhuman effort can make it say anything other than what it says. Second, once convicted, the ball is in the court of the sinner. He/she either believes what the Holy Spirit reveals, or he/she does not. That is where man's responsibility come in, co-equal with God's sovereignty.

That is the mystery of the Gospel. God is absolutely sovereign. Man is absolutely responsible. How can that be? We'll understand it when we are in heaven, perhaps. But those dual truths cannot be denied, no matter how hard any Calvinist/Reformed tries.

While all does mean all, the context will dictate "all of what". So in John 12, the context is all types of men, if you read from the beginning of the chapter.

If all men are drawn, then all are raised up on the last day. That's universalism.

 

[BBAS 64]

Skala, please take note of these Scriptures:

John 6, NASB
​

44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
​

That would presume to teach total depravity, or more accurately, total inability. But then we see this:

John 12
​

32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
​

The Calvinist/Reformed will argue, " 'All' doesn't mean 'all,' " which is the most ridiculous argument imaginable. There is no qualifier, no "type" in this passage that would limit the meaning of the Greek pas to a subset of "all." It means what it says: "All," everyone, everything, any, the whole, all things (or people). God draws all men to Himself through Christ. No man can come without being drawn.

Romans 120 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
​

Once drawn and called, the Holy Spirit opens the spirit and soul to the truth of Scripture, that we stand in need of a Savior.

John 16
​

8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
​

Two points: First, "the world" is not just a select subset of people. It is the Greek kosmos. In this context, it can mean nothing other than "the inhabitants of Earth, men, the human family." No twisting or superhuman effort can make it say anything other than what it says. Second, once convicted, the ball is in the court of the sinner. He/she either believes what the Holy Spirit reveals, or he/she does not. That is where man's responsibility come in, co-equal with God's sovereignty.

That is the mystery of the Gospel. God is absolutely sovereign. Man is absolutely responsible. How can that be? We'll understand it when we are in heaven, perhaps. But those dual truths cannot be denied, no matter how hard any Calvinist/Reformed tries.

Good Day,

Very poorly done you have broken the very rules you ebrace:

John 6 in the context is very diffent than John 12. Let's just remeber that the verse directly after the one you ripped out of context 33:

12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

Are you presumimg you are part of the "all" that witnessed he death?

Please provide me one source for one reformed person who says all does not mean alll when refering to john12. Have you ever read a critical commentary on john 12 from a reformed christian?

John 6 in context has to do with the total in abilty of man "no man Can".

What does no man can mean to you?

Thane that fact stament is modified by unless, can you explain that as well?

Where is the very remotly addressed in John 12?? You are forcing commparisions that are not relative... violates rule 7.

Unless of course you can build from John 12 context, to show it is germaine. Also and more importantly. Show what is lacking in the context in john 6 that requires you to move to John 12

Please exergete the whole cotext (v 36-47) of the proof text you pulled from it's context in violation of rule # 4.

It is kind of sad, I am having the same issues with the same text with a Roman catholic on an other thread, seems some Baptist find that denomination more suitable then dealing with the text of scripture and the Gospel nicked name Calvinism.

6:36
But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


In Him,

Bill

 

[Skala]

Skala, please take note of these Scriptures:

John 6, NASB
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.​

That would presume to teach total depravity, or more accurately, total inability. But then we see this:

John 12
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

​

The Calvinist/Reformed will argue, " 'All' doesn't mean 'all,' " which is the most ridiculous argument imaginable. There is no qualifier, no "type" in this passage that would limit the meaning of the Greek pas to a subset of "all." It means what it says: "All," everyone, everything, any, the whole, all things (or people).

You can't take a statement from a totally different chapter with a different context, assume an (incorrect) meaning, then re-apply what you assumed onto John 6. That's not handling God's word correctly and honestly.

In John 6, the Father is the one doing the drawing. So any arguments made in John 6 is about the Father's activity. In John 12:32, Jesus is the one doing the drawing.

Both chapters are talking about something completely different. In John 6, Jesus is explaining how it is that people come to faith in Christ. Through the Father's drawing. In John 12, Jesus is explaining that his death will draw all types of men, both Jews and Greeks, to him.

Trying to equate the two is intellectually dishonest.

(also as Hammster pointed out, in John 6 Jesus emphatically states that all who are drawn are also raised up on the last day)

As for "all", the word has not one, but two definitions. One of those definitions is "some of all types". It is a mistake on your part to think "pas" always means "every single one without exception". The definition employed by the author is defined by the context. Since Jesus is responding to a Greek who had just approached him, he is explaining that He as the Savior will save all kinds of men, not just the Jews.

He cannot possibly be saying that He will draw each and every individual in the human race, because that very same chapter says he won't. Read a few verses down and you will find that God has blinded the eyes of some people, such that they cannot beleive, thus your interpretation makes him out to be a schizo.

'UH..WELL...uh..I'm drawing them, you see, but I'm also blinding them! Yeah yeah!!!"

See this short article for a better articulated argument:

http://conversationsincalvinism.blogspot.com/2006/06/calvinism-and-john-1232.html

 

[Skala]

so it doesn't say what it says, right The doctrine takes free will out of the equation. Man has free will to choose God or reject Him. That is the choice given to all mankind not just the select few.

God draws men to him yes, but man can still reject that. As shown in judas

Not quite bro. Nobody here has denied free will. It's just that fallen, unregenerate man, in his rebellion towards God, always uses his free will to choose to reject God.

That is why irresistible grace is necessary, or else nobody would be saved

Praise God for His converting grace, right?

 

[BBAS 64]

so it doesn't say what it says, right The doctrine takes free will out of the equation. Man has free will to choose God or reject Him. That is the choice given to all mankind not just the select few.

God draws men to him yes, but man can still reject that. As shown in judas

Good Day, Bluelion

For what purpose(s) does God Draw men to himself?

Does he draw all men?

Please provide the evidence that Judas was drawn.

Man does have free-will, just how unconstrained that will is there is the question.

Define what you mean by free-will.

In Him

Bill

 

[th1bill]

Not quite bro. Nobody here has denied free will. It's just that fallen, unregenerate man, in his rebellion towards God, always uses his free will to choose to reject God.

That is why irresistible grace is necessary, or else nobody would be saved

Praise God for His converting grace, right?

Skala,
You're still in denial. You are still insisting on using man's logic concerning a spiritual matter and that just troubles the daylights out of me. I do not have the power and certainly not the authority to issue, what I'll call "The Finale Judgement" but we are repeatedly called to judge the fruit of others and your fruit is just not of the Spirit. It can be that you have quenched the Spirit, as we are commanded not to do, but either way, you are a troubled soul.

God has told us that His ways are not our ways and that tosses our logic right out the window and places us in the required position of submission to faith in God. As a lost man God's ways drove me nuts knowing that a hand full of idiots believed His ways were right. But the truth of the matter is that short of total submission to God and His ways and we, likely, are lost. God has instructed us the except we believe as a small child we are lost.

When I was a child my dad never lied and he was the most powerful man in the world! That is not a worldly truth, it is a child's truth and has no logic, man's logic, in it. I ran from God for better than 23 years for an assortment of reasons after He first spoke to me but I was sure I could never, never, believe in God as a small child believes. But, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and a few years of personal, daily, study, that is exactly where I am. If the Bible says it, I, without reservation, believe it.

This faith and guidance through the Holy Spirit has shown me the Bible, Old and New Testaments, is the product of one being and is of one context, from beginning to end. From this knowledge comes the first rule of Bible understanding I oft speak of. "There can never be a proper understanding of any scripture, passage of scripture nor of any grouping of scripture without the light of all other scripture shinning on it."

Praying for your enlightenment.

 

[th1bill]

Good Day,

Very poorly done you have broken the very rules you ebrace:

John 6 in the context is very diffent than John 12. Let's just remeber that the verse directly after the one you ripped out of context 33:

12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

Are you presumimg you are part of the "all" that witnessed he death?

Please provide me one source for one reformed person who says all does not mean alll when refering to john12. Have you ever read a critical commentary on john 12 from a reformed christian?

John 6 in context has to do with the total in abilty of man "no man Can".

What does no man can mean to you?

Thane that fact stament is modified by unless, can you explain that as well?

Where is the very remotly addressed in John 12?? You are forcing commparisions that are not relative... violates rule 7.

Unless of course you can build from John 12 context, to show it is germaine. Also and more importantly. Show what is lacking in the context in john 6 that requires you to move to John 12

Please exergete the whole cotext (v 36-47) of the proof text you pulled from it's context in violation of rule # 4.

It is kind of sad, I am having the same issues with the same text with a Roman catholic on an other thread, seems some Baptist find that denomination more suitable then dealing with the text of scripture and the Gospel nicked name Calvinism.

6:36
But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


In Him,

Bill

Bill,
You are one sharp young man.

 

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

If all men are drawn, then all are raised up on the last day. That's universalism.

Only if you believe in irresistible grace does that false dichotomy exist. God is sovereign, man is responsible. Man cannot come to Christ unless he is drawn, which simply means to "impel," bring to a place where one can be taught, where one will listen, or at the very least be held. That isn't impelling to belief, that is simply drawing to a point where one can hear what is to be said. Man cannot respond without the the call of the Holy Spirit, the act of the Spirit opening his mind. But his responsibility enters in at that point. He has the ability to reject the truth revealed to him, and many do.

In John 3:1-10, we have as clear a presentation of God's sovereignty as there is in the Bible. Immediately on it's heels, in vv. 11-21, is as clear a presentation as exists in Scripture of man's responsibility. If man has a responsibility, then he must have some part in the decision to follow Christ, even if it is so small a part as believing what only the Holy Spirit can enable. God does not manually insert the Holy Spirit into the human brain. He must be invited in.

In the John 3 passages cited, Jesus speaks to Nicodemus, at this point a doubter, a non-believer, though he is obviously seeking to understand the truth of Who he thinks Jesus might be. And Jesus immediately introduces to him to twin and parallel truths of divine sovereignty in salvation and human responsibility to accept it. In essense, Jesus says, "This is a work of God, solely a work of God, but you will be held responsible if you do not believe, and you are called to believe and eternal life awaits you if you will believe." Those are twin truths that run parallel.

How do you get these two truths to merge? You can't. They will always run parallel. They will always run parallel. They will never come together. They will never intersect. They will never be diminished. Legitimately, they are what they are. The fact that you don’t understand how they go together only proves that you’re less than you should be, and since I don't understand them either, so am I. It doesn’t say anything about God. Our inability to harmonize those things is a reflection of our fallenness. When someone asks me to harmonize these biblical facts, these truths, I have to say, "I can’t."

They can’t be harmonized in the human mind. But realize this, we are puny minds. It is an utter waste of time to try to reconcile these truths. They can't be reconciled in the human mind. It is impossible. Yet Calvinism pretends to do so. That's nothing more than man's folly and insistence that he not be denied understanding. Rather than simply accept God's truth, no matter how impossible it seems, we invent a God who is capricious and cruel, claiming He created some who can never know Him. How arrogant!!

Collectively we are puny compared to the infinite, vast, limitless mind of God. All I can tell you is that in the Word of God, these truths run parallel. And the answer is to believe them both with all your heart. The one, divine sovereignty, will inform your worship. The other, human responsibility, will motivate your evangelism. Why seek to do the impossible? Just believe. If we are ever intended to understand, we will -- in heaven.

 

[Skala]

Only if you believe in irresistible grace does that false dichotomy exist.

Not true. One simply has to believe the rules of grammar:

"No one can come to me unless the Father draws HIM, and I will raise HIM up at the last day"

Is the first "him" different than the second "him"?

If not, then it is plain: When a person is drawn to the Son, the Son will raise him up at the last day.

Again, please give this short article a read;
http://conversationsincalvinism.blogspot.com/2006/06/calvinism-and-john-1232.html

 

[Skala]

Skala,
You're still in denial. You are still insisting on using man's logic concerning a spiritual matter and that just troubles the daylights out of me. I do not have the power and certainly not the authority to issue, what I'll call "The Finale Judgement" but we are repeatedly called to judge the fruit of others and your fruit is just not of the Spirit. It can be that you have quenched the Spirit, as we are commanded not to do, but either way, you are a troubled soul.

God has told us that His ways are not our ways and that tosses our logic right out the window and places us in the required position of submission to faith in God. As a lost man God's ways drove me nuts knowing that a hand full of idiots believed His ways were right. But the truth of the matter is that short of total submission to God and His ways and we, likely, are lost. God has instructed us the except we believe as a small child we are lost.

When I was a child my dad never lied and he was the most powerful man in the world! That is not a worldly truth, it is a child's truth and has no logic, man's logic, in it. I ran from God for better than 23 years for an assortment of reasons after He first spoke to me but I was sure I could never, never, believe in God as a small child believes. But, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and a few years of personal, daily, study, that is exactly where I am. If the Bible says it, I, without reservation, believe it.

This faith and guidance through the Holy Spirit has shown me the Bible, Old and New Testaments, is the product of one being and is of one context, from beginning to end. From this knowledge comes the first rule of Bible understanding I oft speak of. "There can never be a proper understanding of any scripture, passage of scripture nor of any grouping of scripture without the light of all other scripture shinning on it."

Praying for your enlightenment.

 

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

Not true. One simply has to believe the rules of grammar:

"No one can come to me unless the Father draws HIM, and I will raise HIM up at the last day"

Is the first "him" different than the second "him"?

If not, then it is plain: When a person is drawn to the Son, the Son will raise him up at the last day.

You ignore that the key word in the verse is not "draw" but "come," the Greek erchomai, coupled with the use of the Greek dunamai, translated here as "can." In this context, erchomai means to be established. We are established in Christ by faith alone. Dunamai as I'm sure you know, is "to be able." One can be drawn, but if one does not "come" there is no salvation. The onus, once the drawing, calling -- which is the opening of the mind -- is done by the power of the Holy Spirit, is then on man to believe. There is no two ways about it. God is sovereign, man is responsible.