Calvinism vs arminism

[JM]

Feigned outrage?

 

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

Where did I misrepresent you?

Throughout your last post, and probably elsewhere as well. I didn't take the time to review every word. But I've said these things throughout the day.

In essense, Jesus says, "This is a work of God, solely a work of God, but you will be held responsible if you do not believe, and you are called to believe and eternal life awaits you if you will believe." Those are twin truths that run parallel.

You ignore that the key word in the verse is not "draw" but "come," the Greek erchomai, coupled with the use of the Greek dunamai, translated here as "can." In this context, erchomai means to be established. We are established in Christ by faith alone. Dunamai as I'm sure you know, is "to be able." One can be drawn, but if one does not "come" there is no salvation. The onus, once the drawing, calling -- which is the opening of the mind -- is done by the power of the Holy Spirit, is then on man to believe. There is no two ways about it. God is sovereign, man is responsible.

How do you get these two truths to merge? You can't. They will always run parallel. They will always run parallel. They will never come together. They will never intersect. They will never be diminished. Legitimately, they are what they are. The fact that you don’t understand how they go together only proves that you’re less than you should be, and since I don't understand them either, so am I. It doesn’t say anything about God. Our inability to harmonize those things is a reflection of our fallenness. When someone asks me to harmonize these biblical facts, these truths, I have to say, "I can’t."

They can’t be harmonized in the human mind. But realize this, we are puny minds. It is an utter waste of time to try to reconcile these truths. They can't be reconciled in the human mind. It is impossible. Yet Calvinism pretends to do so. That's nothing more than man's folly and insistence that he not be denied understanding. Rather than simply accept God's truth, no matter how impossible it seems, we invent a God who is capricious and cruel, claiming He created some who can never know Him. How arrogant!!

Collectively we are puny compared to the infinite, vast, limitless mind of God. All I can tell you is that in the Word of God, these truths run parallel. And the answer is to believe them both with all your heart. The one, divine sovereignty, will inform your worship. The other, human responsibility, will motivate your evangelism. Why seek to do the impossible? Just believe. If we are ever intended to understand, we will -- in heaven.

In response, you last said this:

What, did you think you converted yourself?
Keep in mind who actually converted you next time you are singing worship songs on Sunday ... If you think your salvation was nothing more than the result of some neurons firing in your brain in a certain pattern, that your salvation was nothing more than an intellectual decision you made with your mind, I am truly saddened for you. I am truly saddened if you don't see the Holy Spirit's role in your salvation. He worked hard to convert you and make a powerful change in you. So like, what do you do with all of those Bible verses which describe how God changes us and turns us 'round? Nothing? Ignore them? Do they not apply to you?

Your mocking tone ignores the fact I've repeatedly said that only by God's sovereign action does man believe. The only place in the process we disagree is that you insist that that once drawn, a man has no choice but to believe. I say that the drawing is not implantation of faith, but an opportunity for God to reach the sinner with the truth, to which the sinner has the opportunity, in that brief small window when the Holy Spirit has opened his heart and soul, to receive by faith the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

Or not. And many fall into the "or not" category. No man can be saved of his own volition. He does not seek God, he is incapable of doing so. It is only when God "drags him to another location" -- a place where he will listen, perhaps because of trial and tragedy in his life, perhaps because he is young enough and has godly parents that he has been exposed to the Gospel and has come to a gradual ability to believe. Regardless, it is only God who empowers that faith.

But he can also, at that critical moment, reject it. That doesn't mean he's eternally lost -- not yet, not until he draws his final breath. Another opportunity may arise.

I am convinced God pursues sinners with love and the Gospel. Witness the Prodigal Son. Raised in a believing family, he failed to understand and believe. He struck out on his own and utterly failed. He hoped for temporal relief, but was reached eternally upon his return because of the father's love. It is a parable of how many of us are. He chose to return, not because he expected salvation, but he did hope for mercy. He got much more.

 

[Skala]

In response, you last said this:Your mocking tone ignores the fact I've repeatedly said that only by God's sovereign action does man believe. The only place in the process we disagree is that you insist that that once drawn, a man has no choice but to believe.

I'd word it different. Once drawn, he is willing to believe. He doesn't believe kicking and screaming against his will.

Since nobody comes to Christ unwillingly, and the Father's drawing result in people coming to Christ, that must mean the Father's drawing results in people being willing.

Maybe he uses regeneration and stuff as part of His process of saving?

I say that the drawing is not implantation of faith, but an opportunity for God to reach the sinner with the truth, to which the sinner has the opportunity, in that brief small window when the Holy Spirit has opened his heart and soul, to receive by faith the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

The problem with this is the person is still unregenerate and cannot do anything pleasing to God (Rom 8:8ff), he is a natural man and finds the gospel foolishness (1 Cor). Unless your theology includes something where God actually does something to change the person inwardly, it will never result in salvation.

If you give a wolf the choice between a steak or a salad, what will the wolf choose? Due to the wolf's nature, he will choose the same thing each time because he, like all creatures, choose in accordance with his nature.

Since all unregenerate men are haters of God and rebellious against God and think Jesus is foolishness and a stumbling block (1 Cor), if you offer them the choice between the Jesus they hate and the sin that they love, what will they choose? When is the last time you chose something you hate over something you love?

God does so much more than offer people Jesus. He actually intervenes and changes our hearts so that we do choose Jesus. If he merely offered, and that's it, nobody would be saved. If you offer a wolf the choice between steak and salad, he will always choose the steak. But if you change the wolf into a sheep, he will be glad to choose to salad.

You say you believe God pursues sinners with love. Yet only in my view does God guarantee salvation for people by directly getting involved and doing powerful works of conversion in our hearts, removing our blindfolds, changing us. In your view, he just offers it to them and sits back and sees what they do, for "brief windows of opportunity" at a time.



So, I see a few major differences between us:

1) In my view, God does much more to get people saved than He does in your view
2) In my view, unregenerate people are hostile to God and in fact, disinclined away from until God, by grace, changes them. In your view, nobody is necessarily hostile to God. they are just "neutral" towards God and need to be urged to make the right choice. Where is the bible's teaching on fallen man's negative attitude towards God, in your view? It seems to be missing.

 

[98cwitr]

Yes, that's an easy one. The Armenian believes that every human born on this planet is a candidate for salvation as per the teaching of Jesus in the Gospels. The Pointer demand that God creates some to go to Hell meaning He does not love every human created.

Well that's kinda ignoring God's Omniscience since He created you knowing prior to said creation whether or not you were going to heaven or hell, and decided to create both the damned and the saved anyway Romans 9 confirms this btw.

 

[VolRaider]

For those who accept Christ as Savior, the end result of both "isms" turns out to be the same - and that is Good News.

 

[Bluelion]

If it's so clear you should be able to define it.

Go on.

why don't you look at a dictionary if you do not understand the English language.

free will noun
: the ability to choose how to act

: the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God

Full Definition of FREE WILL

1
: voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2
: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
See free will defined for English-language learners »
See free will defined for kids »
Examples of FREE WILL

He argues that all humans have free will.
<all of the workers at the homeless shelter are unpaid and are there of their own free will>
First Known Use of FREE WILL

13th century

 

[Hammster]

why don't you look at a dictionary if you do not understand the English language.

free will noun
: the ability to choose how to act

: the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God

Full Definition of FREE WILL

1
: voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2
: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
See free will defined for English-language learners »
See free will defined for kids »
Examples of FREE WILL

He argues that all humans have free will.
<all of the workers at the homeless shelter are unpaid and are there of their own free will>
First Known Use of FREE WILL

13th century

Do you ever act contrary to your nature? Do you ever make a decision to do something that you don't want to do? Think carefully before you respond. It's not as simple aaa you think.

 

[BBAS 64]

Well if you don't know judas story maybe you need to research, clearly he was drawn.

Define free will thought that was quite clear, not going to have philosophical debate about free will and what it is.

Nice asserton he was chossen, which is not equal with drawn.

Really you think it is clear..... Can you chose that wich you are unable to do?

if you can not, then how free are you?

 

[th1bill]

And this is reasoning? It is not Christ, is it?

 

[th1bill]

What you're missing is that Jesus was pretty definitive that He will raise up those who are drawn. You can't just make a sharp left at the very end and avoid universalism.

Universalism, first is the great lie of all time. Second, Universalism is no part of Christian Doctrine. If it is not Christian, it has no part with Baptist Doctrine. That is why I attend the Baptist Church and Worship there, because I find it the closest to being Christian.

 

[th1bill]

Then why does Jesus tell the crowd later in the chapter that the reason some had not believed His truth is because the Father did not grant it to them?

Skala,
And you badger me about human logic? You just made his case for him.

 

[Hammster]

Universalism, first is the great lie of all time. Second, Universalism is no part of Christian Doctrine. If it is not Christian, it has no part with Baptist Doctrine. That is why I attend the Baptist Church and Worship there, because I find it the closest to being Christian.

Non sequitur.

 

[th1bill]

But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." (John 6:64, 65 NASB)

The flaw in your argument is that on one hand you say that God draws everyone, and everyone must then choose, but here it says that they don't believe because it's not been granted by the Father. If your view was true He would have said that no one will come who doesn't want to.

No, your position ignore the whole light of scripture. The Father, being omnipotent must come into consideration here, He could but does not force.

 

[th1bill]

You didn't answer my question. You said the reason the Father gives people to Jesus is because they believe, but Jesus said the reason people don't believe is because the Father didn't give them to him.

So who is right? You or Jesus?



Is this what you did when you brought John 12:32 into the picture?

Both, see my last post.

 

[Hammster]

No, your position ignore the whole light of scripture. The Father, being omnipotent must come into consideration here, He could but does not force.

That's not a rebuttal.

 

[th1bill]

You've equated the calling of God with responding to the gospel. That changes the definition of called.

You asked for the truth and then you insult? When I read the simple form of this answer I understood his explanation. He has elevated nothing to anything God does. He has just studied all the scripture has to say.

 

[th1bill]

It should be crystal clear from the drawing below that the Assyrians converted these folks.

Hello JM,
Welcome to the sharpening of steel.

 

[Hammster]

You asked for the truth and then you insult? When I read the simple form of this answer I understood his explanation. He has elevated nothing to anything God does. He has just studied all the scripture has to say.

I understood his explanation. I'm pointing out the error.

 

[th1bill]

Well that's kinda ignoring God's Omniscience since He created you knowing prior to said creation whether or not you were going to heaven or hell, and decided to create both the damned and the saved anyway Romans 9 confirms this btw.

No, you're ignoring the perfect will of God, that none should perish but should repent and come to salvation.

 

[th1bill]

For those who accept Christ as Savior, the end result of both "isms" turns out to be the same - and that is Good News.

LOL, Welcome neighbor.