Calvinism Refuted

[drstevej]

I have yet to find any verse in the bible talking about a "gift of free will".

Brigham Young is as close as I have found...

When men say: "O Lord, we are the clay, you are the potter! Fashion, shape and make us, and do with us as seems good in Thy sight, only let us know Thy will, we are here to perform whatever Thou requirest," it makes me think of that second person that came forth in the heavens when the voice went forth: "Who will redeem the earth, who will go forth and make the sacrifice for the earth and all things it contains?" The eldest son said: "Here am I;" but he did not say "send me." But the second one, which was "Lucifer, son of the morning," said, "Lord, here am I, send me, I will redeem every son and daughter of Adam and Eve that lives on the earth, or that ever goes on the earth." "But," says the Father, "that will not answer at all. I give each and every individual his agency; all must use that in order to gain exaltation in my kingdom; inasmuch as they have the power of choice they must exercise that power. They are my children; the attributes which you see in me are in my children and they must use their agency. If you undertake to save all, you must save them in unrighteousness and corruption. You will be the man that will say to the thief on the cross, to the murderer on the gallows, and to him who has killed his father, mother, brothers, and sisters and little ones, "Now, if you will say, I repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, or on the Savior of the world, you shall be saved." This is what all the religious sects of the day are saying now, but Jesus did not say any such thing.

 

[nobdysfool]

Not sure what point is referenced, but the point of my post was that human beings are created with the ability to make choices and decisions, including decisions for right or wrong, moral judgments and decisions.

Has their ability to make moral choices been affected by the Fall?

 

[drstevej]

Not sure what point is referenced, but the point of my post was that human beings are created with the ability to make choices and decisions, including decisions for right or wrong, moral judgments and decisions.

Sorry archierieus is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Sorry archierieus is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her.

 

[&Abel]

Lessee, a prior action is happening at the same time?



Tell your English teacher that. Get the 'F's. Live it out -- don't just act like you know what you're saying. Quit paying your internet bill, because really, you shouldn't have to do that in order to get on the internet. It's not prior, because "Everyone who's posting, their internet bill is paid."

The grammar construction is the same in Greek.

After a few months of life this way: then we'll talk about whether that's worked out for you.

well like I said, he who is born of God does believe

it does not say "whoever believes in Jesus, first has been born again"

think about what hes saying for a second

he who believes has been born again

these are spiritual words remember

the past tense could be his deliverance of the first part of the sentence

"he who believes" becomes past as hes saying "has been born again" in the present

 

[nobdysfool]

Brigham Young is as close as I have found...

Yeah, but Ol' Brigham wasn't writing scripture in that statement, now was he????

 

[archierieus]

The grammar construction is the same in Greek.

Incorrect. The English perfect is different from the Greek perfect. Aside from that, aktionsart applied definitively is itself a rather dated concept. But even under aktionsart, it would be 'is born' as the NASB translates it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Incorrect. The English perfect is different from the Greek perfect. Aside from that, aktionsart applied definitively is itself a rather dated concept. But even under aktionsart, it would be 'is born' as the NASB translates it.

Here are the words in the greek.

1 John 5:1 Every the one believing that Jesus is the Christ out of the God has been begotten and every the one loving the one begetting is loving also the one having been begotten from/out of Him.

Textus Rec.) 1 John 5:1 paV o pisteuwn oti ihsouV estin o cristoV ek tou qeou gegennhtai kai paV o agapwn ton gennhsanta agapa kai ton gegennhmenon ex autou

 

[archierieus]

I agree.

 

[&Abel]

Incorrect. The English perfect is different from the Greek perfect. Aside from that, aktionsart applied definitively is itself a rather dated concept. But even under aktionsart, it would be 'is born' as the NASB translates it.

to be fair

it says "is born" one verse and "has been born" in another

 

[heymikey80]

Perfect passive indicative, would be 'is born,' as the NASB and KJV, etc. render it.

Where's the past meaning of the perfect tense in your translation?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is rather interesting. The greek word for "gehenna" has the same 4 letters as these 3 words have. Never noticed that before.

Textus Rec.) 1 John 5:1 paV o pisteuwn oti ihsouV estin o cristoV ek tou qeou gegennhtai kai paV o agapwn ton gennhsanta agapa kai ton gegennhmenon ex autou

Matt 23:33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>"

 

[archierieus]

Where's the past meaning of the perfect tense in your translation?

I would defer to the Lockman Foundation. I can get you the email addy for the lead translator, he has been active on B-Greek Digest, or you can look him up on there.

 

[archierieus]

to be fair

it says "is born" one verse and "has been born" in another

ESV was itself translated by a committee. Translators are influenced by their own beliefs at times, as well as other facts which can affect their work product. And there are some errors in some translations.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I would defer to the Lockman Foundation. I can get you the email addy for the lead translator, he has been active on B-Greek Digest, or you can look him up on there.

I used to go to the B-greek quite often awhile back. Good site.

 

[&Abel]

ESV was itself translated by a committee. Translators are influenced by their own beliefs at times, as well as other facts which can affect their work product. And there are some errors in some translations.

true I'm just going by the NASB(which is a far stretch from greek or hebrew)

well it said to be fairly literal but either way

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

true I'm just going by the NASB

You do realize the NASB and NKJV use different greek texts?

Reps to heymikey

 

[heymikey80]

well like I said, he who is born of God does believe

it does not say "whoever believes in Jesus, first has been born again"

It's indicative mood. That's very much what it says.

In fact, in Greek it's emphatic as in John 3:16. The word "whosoever" in KJV indicates this construction. It's "Each and every one who believes Jesus is the Christ, has been born of God."

think about what hes saying for a second

he who believes has been born again

these are spiritual words remember

They're words about a spiritual event -- not words about a figurative event. The concept Jesus uses is birth. To reject the implications of that concept, you'd need a good reason to do so.

the past tense could be his deliverance of the first part of the sentence

"he who believes" becomes past as hes saying "has been born again" in the present

So sure, think about what he's saying for a second. Any and every one who's believing at any point in time, you can say of him, "this person has been born of God." No matter what reference point where you can say the person's believing, that person prior to the reference point has been born of God.

 

[Hammster]

so explain it in simple terms instead of claiming you can

I never claimed it could be explained in simple terms. I claimed it could be explained biblically.

 

[&Abel]

you don't need a prior reference point

if I say LLOJ has been born of God, I am in no way shape or form saying it happened prior to him believing