Calvinism Refuted

[&Abel]

I never claimed it could be explained in simple terms. I claimed it could be explained biblically.

you can't give me a short summary of your beliefs based on the bible?

 

[&Abel]

when I read those words "he who has believed has been born of God"

I imagine someone(no specific person)as hes saying "he who has believed" and then its stated "has been born of God" describing the result of that belief

but maybe thats just me

 

[&Abel]

"he who whole stole from the collection plate has been arrested"

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

you can't give me a short summary of your beliefs based on the bible?

Even I am not able to give a "short" summary on a book that is simply "not of this world"

John 14:30 "Not still much I shall be talking with ye, for is coming/ercetai <2064> (5736), the of the world, this, Chief and in Me not he is having anything".

1 John 2:18 Little-children, last Hour it-is and according-as ye hear that the anti-christ is coming/ercetai <2064> (5736). And now anti-christs, many, have become whence we are knowing that last Hour it-is

 

[beloved57]

when I read those words "he who has believed has been born of God"

I imagine someone(no specific person)as hes saying "he who has believed" and then its stated "has been born of God" describing the result of that belief

but maybe thats just me

believing is the result of having been born of God..

 

[heymikey80]

when I read those words "he who has believed has been born of God"

I imagine someone(no specific person)as hes saying "he who has believed" and then its stated "has been born of God" describing the result of that belief

but maybe thats just me

Like I said, the Greek tenses don't let that happen.

What it does mean is that you can conclude that the person has been born of God because the person believes. It shows his New Birth. It doesn't cause his New Birth.

 

[archierieus]

It's indicative mood. That's very much what it says.

That is incorrect. The tense, voice and mood do not say that. There is no implication of 'first.'

In fact, in Greek it's emphatic as in John 3:16. The word "whosoever" in KJV indicates this construction. It's "Each and every one who believes Jesus is the Christ, has been born of God."

They're words about a spiritual event -- not words about a figurative event. The concept Jesus uses is birth. To reject the implications of that concept, you'd need a good reason to do so.

The grammar does not state 'born of God' as the beginning point of believing in Jesus. It is not present there. The focus of the verse is acceptance of Christ's Messiahship.

 

[&Abel]

Even I am not able to give a "short" summary on a book that is simply "not of this world"

John 14:30 "Not still much I shall be talking with ye, for is coming/ercetai <2064> (5736), the of the world, this, Chief and in Me not he is having anything.

1 John 2:18 Little-children, last Hour it-is and according-as ye hear that the anti-christ is coming/ercetai <2064> (5736). And now anti-christs, many, have become whence we are knowing that last Hour it-is

well I can give you one sentence

I believe Jesus christ lived and died to take away my sins, so that upon acceptance I may receive His gift of grace and be grafted into everlasting life

 

[&Abel]

Like I said, the Greek tenses don't let that happen.

What it does mean is that you can conclude that the person has been born of God because the person believes. It shows his New Birth. It doesn't cause his New Birth.

in case you missed it:

"he who whole stole from the collection plate has been arrested"

perfect example

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

well I can give you one sentence

I believe Jesus christ lived and died to take away my sins, so that upon acceptance I may receive His gift of grace and be grafted into everlasting life

Good summary

John 7:37 In yet the last day, the great, of the feast, stood the Jesus and cries-out, saying, "If-ever any may be thirsting, let him be coming toward Me and be drinking"; [Isaiah 43:19/Revelation 21:6]

Reve 21:6 And He said to me "they/it-have-become.
I Am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. I, to the one thirsting, shall be giving out of the spring of the Water of the Life gratuitously/dwrean <1432>". [John 7:37/Reve 16:17]

 

[&Abel]

"He who steals from the collection plate has committed a sin"

 

[archierieus]

when I read those words "he who has believed has been born of God"

I imagine someone(no specific person)as hes saying "he who has believed" and then its stated "has been born of God" describing the result of that belief

but maybe thats just me

What it says literally is, The one believing in Jesus is born of God. Once again, the emphasis is on the importance of believing in Jesus as the Messiah. That is the context. John is dealing with heresy in the church of his day, and this verse speaks to that issue.

 

[&Abel]

What it says literally is, The one believing in Jesus is born of God. Once again, the emphasis is on the importance of believing in Jesus as the Messiah. That is the context. John is dealing with heresy in the church of his day, and this verse speaks to that issue.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What it says literally is, The one believing in Jesus is born of God. Once again, the emphasis is on the importance of believing in Jesus as the Messiah. That is the context. John is dealing with heresy in the church of his day, and this verse speaks to that issue.

Matt 10:22 And ye shall be being hated by all thru the Name of Me. The one yet enduring into a-finish/teloV <5056>, this one shall be being saved

Romans 10:13 For all who ever should be calling upon the Name of Lord, shall be being saved.

 

[archierieus]

Like I said, the Greek tenses don't let that happen.

What it does mean is that you can conclude that the person has been born of God because the person believes. It shows his New Birth. It doesn't cause his New Birth.

It does not say that the New Birth causes his belief, not does it pertain to the issue of causation. It is descriptive. It pertains to the issue of heresy in the early church.

 

[heymikey80]

in case you missed it:

"he who whole stole from the collection plate has been arrested"

perfect example

Poor example. Participle would be aorist.

"He who steals from the collection plate has committed a sin"

This would be better, but exactly the sin he's committed wouldn't have been stealing -- it would've been prior.

 

[&Abel]

Poor example. Participle would be aorist.

This would be better, but exactly the sin he's committed wouldn't have been stealing -- it would've been prior.

I'm fairly sure thats a perfectly acceptable sentence

Arch knows grammar(I had to replace my misspelling of grammEr ) better than I obviously

 

[&Abel]

its related to the style of speech of the time

 

[heymikey80]

That is incorrect. The tense, voice and mood do not say that. There is no implication of 'first.'

That's why it's "very much" and not "exactly". There is every implication of precedence, specifically in time. If we're only talking about these two things -- sure, the implication is definitely of "born" being first.

It's simply prior to the "believing". It is.

The grammar does not state 'born of God' as the beginning point of believing in Jesus. It is not present there. The focus of the verse is acceptance of Christ's Messiahship.

Nor does Calvinism -- the beginning point is God. "`O ein ap' archeis".

But the precedent, the antecedent, is "born of God".

I'm amused at the rejection of the grammar.

Each of these grammatical features are agreed as far as I can tell (though you haven't answered about the aorist/perfect state of the language), and yet there's a denial of their prima facie application.

 

[Hammster]

you can't give me a short summary of your beliefs based on the bible?

A short summary? Yes. the full argument would take a bit longer. I can direct you to some websites if you would like. But for some reason, I don't think you are asking because you really want to know.