Calvinism Refuted

[cygnusx1]

Most of the men are gracious, more so than me, but not you!

here comes the personal stuff folks ! the doctrinal argument has been replaced , and we see what remains , shall i respond in like manner ? no

 

[cygnusx1]

why did God choose poor people ?
for the same reason He chose the ignoble and foolish of this world

1 Corinthians :

1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 1:28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

 

[JDS]

Simply put, God is eternal, all knowing, all powerful and unchanging.

The Bible says He chose us before the foundation of the world.

He didn't decide later in time that the cross would be the means by which he did so making it secondary to His choice, the cross was His purpose then, which for Him is now, everything is now.

It's part of the whole deal.

Salvation is a package, from election to glory and every step on the way.

In the will of God it makes no sense to think of these things as happening subsequent to one another. If we put them in an order it is only because we understand one to be logically dependent upon the other. So His choice, election, comes first, but this does not mean that it precedes anything in time or that it has any precedence in importance.

BW, you may not think I am telling you the truth but I know that is what you believe and I could argue against it because I do not agree with it but what I am wanting from you is to know if you believe those things strongly enough to believe them to be essential doctrines of the Christian faith?

If it is a package that cannot be separated, why wouldn't it be? And I will ask you again, why are Arminians who disagree with it granted the status of Christian brothers?

 

[Hammster]

You're position is to refute the doctrines of Grace as expressed by the Canons of Dordt which refuted the Arminian Remonstants. Not attack a strawman based on anything else. This is the points of contention:



Total Depravity



Man has a will and his will is in bondage to his nature. The will of man is free to choose according to the dictates of his nature, but it is not free to contradict his nature. From Adam's fall the nature of every man has been sinful. Therefore, every action of the unsaved man is sinful and rebellious; it is stained through and through by his sin nature. The unregenerate man cannot perform even one single righteous or pleasing work with respect to a holy God.



See: Genesis 6:5, Genesis 8.21, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6-7, Jeremiah 17:9, John 3:3, John 3:19, John 8:44, Romans 3:10-18, Romans 5:12, Romans 8:8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2:1-3; 2 Timothy 2:26



Unconditional Election



God’s election is truly unconditional. The foreknowledge of God is based upon His decree, plan, and purpose; it is the expression of His will and good pleasure, not a response to man's free-will choices. Election is the sovereign act of God the Father choosing specific individuals out from the "lump of clay" of humanity. These individuals were chosen before the foundations of the universe and not as a result of any foreseen merit or activity or decision on their part. These chosen or elect individuals are purposed to become monuments to the Father's love for all of eternity. In this regard the Reformed believer understands election as an example of God’s "love before time."



See: Deuteronomy 7:6-7, Isaiah 55:11, John 6:44, John 15:16, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9:11-13, 1 Corinthians 1:26-29, Ephesians 1:3-5, Ephesians 2:4-7, 2 Timothy 1:9



Limited Atonement



In order to accomplish the specific will of the Father, Christ took to the Cross the sins of the elect. Christ died for the sins of men without distinction as to race or nationality (that is, Jew or Gentile). He provided a complete and effectual atonement for their sins. Those whom Christ redeemed, Christ really and truly redeemed (actual not potential). Though infinite in value, Christ's atoning work was specific in its design. Some prefer to call this "definite atonement" or "particular redemption". The death of Christ at Calvary does not make men savable, but rather it saves men completely. The Cross is a completed, successful work that requires no assistance from man. The Reformed believe that Christ died for all of the sins of the elect.



See: Psalm 34:22, Isaiah 53:8, Matthew 1:21, Matthew 20:28, Luke 1:68, John 3:16 (the Father gave His Son for whom? - according to this verse the Son was given for whoever believes in Him (the believing ones) not for the ones not believing in Him), John 10:14 -18, John 17:2,6,9; Acts 20:28, Romans 5:8-9, Galatians 3:13, Ephesians 5:25, Hebrews 10:14, Titus 2:14, Revelation 5:9.



Irresistible Grace



The Holy Spirit, in agreement with the electing will of the Father and the atoning work of the Son, does in the fullness of time quicken the dead spirit of a man and give to him the gift of saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. For the Reformed, the logical order of salvation is regeneration first, followed by faith/believing. Since dead men do not respond, God must make them alive first (Eph 2:4-5); regeneration, of necessity, precedes any action or activity on the part of man, including faith and repentance. Hence, every single individual upon whom the Spirit of God moves savingly (the elect) has been called, regenerated, united to Christ, granted faith and repentance, is justified, adopted, sanctified, and will be ultimately fully glorified.



See: Ezekiel 11:19-20, John 5:24 - the perfect tense verb should read has already passed from death unto life; John 6:37-39,44, Romans 8:8, Romans 8:30, Ephesians 2:1-10, Philippians 2:12-13, Colossians 2:13, James 1:18, Tutus 3:5, 1 John 5:1 - another perfect tense verb is used here and should be translated has already been born of God, 1 John 3:7, John 1: 12-13 but of God.



Perseverance of the Saints



Since God is the Author and Finisher of our faith, man cannot fall away from eternal salvation. Furthermore, the elect of God will definitely manifest evidences of their salvation by means of good works. The elect shall, by the grace of God and without exception, ultimately persevere in righteousness. The eternal security of the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is demonstrated by the persevering faith and righteousness wrought by the grace of God in His little begotten ones.



See: Isaiah 43:1-3, Jeremiah 32:40, John 3:36, John 10:28, Romans 8:35-39, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 2:10 God’s workmanship, Philippians 1:6, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 2 Timothy 1:12b & 4:18, 1 Peter 1:4-5, I John 2:19, Jude 24-25.





document from RTI

Thank you... Very helpful. It would give someone a basic understanding of Calvinism if they would take time to read it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

why did God choose poor people ?
for the same reason He chose the ignoble and foolish of this world

1 Corinthians :

1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 1:28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Some are probably wearing the wrong kind of "clothes"

Nahum 3:5 " Behold Me! declaration of YHWH of hosts "and I roll skirts of thee over thy faces and I show nations nakedness of thee and kingdoms shame of thee.

Reve 3:17 That thou are saying that rich I am and have become rich and not-one need I am having, and not are aware that thou are the wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked.

 

[JDS]

here comes the personal stuff folks ! the doctrinal argument has been replaced , and we see what remains , shall i respond in like manner ? no

Good!

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Eph. 1:3-10
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

 

[cygnusx1]

Good!

"Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect" 2Tim 2:10

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

BW, you may not think I am telling you the truth but I know that is what you believe and I could argue against it because I do not agree with it but what I am wanting from you is to know if you believe those things strongly enough to believe them to be essential doctrines of the Christian faith?

If it is a package that cannot be separated, why wouldn't it be? And I will ask you again, why are Arminians who disagree with it granted the status of Christian brothers?

I believe that if someone persists in the willful denial of these truths then yes, he is guilty of a damnable denial of the Word of God, but I believe it to be something a person can be honestly mistaken about and given the state of fallen man such mistakes come as no surprise.

 

[JDS]

Okay well the first one speaks of our being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world and the rest speak of the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.

So you have our election and the cross joined before the foundation of the world.

If you have not removed these passages from the Bible, you must have them in your ordo salutis.

We also have predestination in these verses that you say is part of your inseparable package that begins with election before the foundation of the world. But predestination is not defined by the Scriptures as being unto salvation which must be true if you have understood these verses correctly. The text where this word is used defines it's meaning. I challenge you to look for that and let me know the result.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

We also have predestination in these verses that you say is part of your inseparable package that begins with election before the foundation of the world. But predestination is not defined by the Scriptures as being unto salvation which must be true if you have understood these verses correctly. The text where this word is used defines it's meaning. I challenge you to look for that and let me know the result.

I posted Eph. 1:3-10 above. The whole passage is speaking of God's plan for the salvation of those He has chosen, when He made the plan and what that salvation means for them.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect" 2Tim 2:10

Tis nice to be an Elect

Matt 24:22 And if no was shortened the days, those, not ever was saved all flesh. Because of yet the elect-chosen/eklektouV <1588>, shall be being shortened the days, those. [Mark 13:20]

 

[cygnusx1]

Does God take sides ??

 

[JDS]

"Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect" 2Tim 2:10

Talk about a martyr complex. LOL.

 

[cygnusx1]

Talk about a martyr complex. LOL.

you miss the point ....... never mind .

 

[cygnusx1]

Was God on anyones side when David slayed Goliath ??

Or was God saying to himself " I am no respector of persons , I cannot show favour , I love Goliath just as much as David "

The problem can be shown a thousand times....

here is just one example ...

"I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail (Luke 22:32)", now what do you think that means ??

If Jesus is on your side what does that mean to you personally ?

was it fair for Peter to be prayed for but not Judas ?


Those who argue that God has no favourites are acting like Deists .

 

[JDS]

I believe that if someone persists in the willful denial of these truths then yes, he is guilty of a damnable denial of the Word of God, but I believe it to be something a person can be honestly mistaken about and given the state of fallen man such mistakes come as no surprise.

Well, you have had centuries in which you have had counsels and you have written cathechisms and established churches, written books and now you have the world wide web and you still have Arminians. How much denial does it take?

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Was God on anyones side when David slayed Goliath ??

Or was God saying to himself " I am no respector of persons , I cannot show favour , I love Goliath just as much as David "

The problem can be shown a thousand times....

here is just one example ...

"I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail (Luke 22:32)", now what do you think that means ??

If Jesus is on your side what does that mean to you personally ?

was it fair for Peter to be prayed for but not Judas ?


Those who argue that God has no favourites are Deists at best.

It boggles the mind.

God chose Abraham and made of him a great nation, His chosen people, and yet, somehow, now, in Christ the whole model changes and everyone is the same before God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Man this thread is going too fast for me......LLOJ lurks for awhile

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Well, you have had centuries in which you have had counsels and you have written cathechisms and established churches, written books and now you have the world wide web and you still have Arminians. How much denial does it take?

Well, we hope to deal charitably with one another. You are aware that you don;t have to be a Calvinist to be a member of our churches, right? One wonders why you'd want to if you weren't but we do not require strict subscription from members.

When it becomes a matter for church discipline something should be done though, when the peace of the Body is disturbed and false teaching being given within the church, in other words, when the error becomes obstinate and the conscience seared.