Calvinism Refuted

[JDS]

I posted Eph. 1:3-10 above. The whole passage is speaking of God's plan for the salvation of those He has chosen, when He made the plan and what that salvation means for them.

BW, I am wanting to know specifically about predestination since it is essential to election. How does the text define it? We can learn from any text that defines its terminology. The term is used twice in Ephesians and twice in Romans.

 

[cygnusx1]

It boggles the mind.

God chose Abraham and made of him a great nation, His chosen people, and yet, somehow, now, in Christ the whole model changes and everyone is the same before God.

yes some think God changes from OT to NT , Speaking Of Abraham ;

.... The Jews did stumble but not outside God's will .
Paul begins his argument (Romans 9) by saying has God failed ? seeing as the Jews are to a large extent not Christian .
He then shows by and by that although this has the appearance that God had failed , in fact God has not failed at all , because the children of the promise are not born by human will , but by God's Power (see Abraham's 2 sons , Ishmael was born by the human desire and effort , sometimes called "descisional regeneration" , but Abraham had another son Isaac , this one was born by the power and intervention of God alone , as all Abrahams true descendants are.)
Follow through Romans 9 and the way God works is ego-centric , for Himself , For His own Glory , and He will not share that with another. So the ground of Election is before any consideration of Good or evil even in twins , even in the children of Isaac .
Then move to Romans 10 , here the Jews are without excuse because they have heard and did not believe.
Then Romans 11 , shows quite clearly both the Jews responsibility toward their own downfall and also God's sovereignty over the whole thing .
God hardened them and God did it partly as a punishment but also to allow the Gentiles in.
From Romans 11 , we learn all who sought salvation , didn't find it (they looked at it in a wrong way) and all those who found God and salvation were the ones who weren't even looking.

The illustration of Elijah and God reserving for Himself 7000 men who were obedient should show beyond any argument that God Elects , Saves , and Keeps ... men left to their own devices fall one way only ....down! .

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

BW, I am wanting to know specifically about predestination since it is essential to election. How does the text define it? We can learn from any text that defines its terminology. The term is used twice in Ephesians and twice in Romans.

The text speaks specifically of our being predestinated to adoption. I take this to mean that our adoption; i.e. our reconciliation with the Father; i.e. our being made co-heirs with Christ; i.e. our salvation, was determined beforehand by God.

The same passage speaks of our being chosen for holiness before the foundation of the world giving us another time context for the whole thing.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

.... The Jews did stumble but not outside God's will .
Paul begins his argument (Romans 9) by saying has God failed , seeing as the Jews are to a large extent not Christian ?

They are still covered by the veil of Moses

2 Corin 3:14 But was hardened the minds of them.
For until the today day, the same covering/veil/kalumma <2571> upon the reading of the Old Covenant is remaining, no being up-covered/un-veiled/ana-kaluptomenon <343> (5746) That In Christ it is being-taken-away

 

[JDS]

Well, we hope to deal charitably with one another. You are aware that you don;t have to be a Calvinist to be a member of our churches, right? One wonders why you'd want to if you weren't but we do not require strict subscription from members.

When it becomes a matter for church discipline something should be done though, when the peace of the Body is disturbed and false teaching being given within the church, in other words, when the error becomes obstinate and the conscience seared.

BW, thank you for the conversation tonight. I would like to take this up again later but I have to hit the floor at 4 AM to go to Columbus O so I must retire for some rest.

I'll check in Sunday.

 

[cygnusx1]

They are still covered by the veil of Moses

they are still hardened , but only in part .... some come through saved ... Grace goes where merit cannot.

 

[heymikey80]

Well, you have had centuries in which you have had counsels and you have written cathechisms and established churches, written books and now you have the world wide web and you still have Arminians. How much denial does it take?

Not sure, how much denial does it take for you to depart your view, after these millenia, catechisms, churches, books, WWW?

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

yes some think God changes from OT to NT , Speaking Of Abraham ;

.... The Jews did stumble but not outside God's will .
Paul begins his argument (Romans 9) by saying has God failed ? seeing as the Jews are to a large extent not Christian .
He then shows by and by that although this has the appearance that God had failed , in fact God has not failed at all , because the children of the promise are not born by human will , but by God's Power (see Abraham's 2 sons , Ishmael was born by the human desire and effort , sometimes called "descisional regeneration" , but Abraham had another son Isaac , this one was born by the power and intervention of God alone , as all Abrahams true descendants are.)
Follow through Romans 9 and the way God works is ego-centric , for Himself , For His own Glory , and He will not share that with another. So the ground of Election is before any consideration of Good or evil even in twins , even in the children of Isaac .
Then move to Romans 10 , here the Jews are without excuse because they have heard and did not believe.
Then Romans 11 , shows quite clearly both the Jews responsibility toward their own downfall and also God's sovereignty over the whole thing .
God hardened them and God did it partly as a punishment but also to allow the Gentiles in.
From Romans 11 , we learn all who sought salvation , didn't find it (they looked at it in a wrong way) and all those who found God and salvation were the ones who weren't even looking.

The illustration of Elijah and God reserving for Himself 7000 men who were obedient should show beyond any argument that God Elects , Saves , and Keeps ... men left to their own devices fall one way only ....down! .

Amen.

I half-expected someone to trot out the passage of Scripture which tells us that there is no Jew or Gentile, male or female...

 

[cygnusx1]

I am off to bed now , it's 02:22 here ... work tomorrow , so I bid ye all farewell and Godspeed , and I leave you with a thought ;

well first off God doesn't have to harden anyone ........... just hold that thought .
Secondly Romans 9 explicitly states "I will have mercy upon who I will have mercy on " and who God will harden he will harden .

Take yourself friend , could God have hardened you in the NATURAL state of unbelief He found you in ?

Also Paul calls this a Mystery , a Mystery to be understood , but there is no mystery in the Arminian view , it is all so obvious .............. and wrong.

Greetings
Cygnus

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

they are still hardened , but only in part .... some come through saved ... Grace goes where merit cannot.

Tis true

Romans 11:25 For not I am willing ye to being ignorant brothers of the mystery, this, that no ye may be beside yourselves wise.
That a hardening/pwrwsiV <4457> from part/merouV <3313> to-the Israel has become until which the filling/plhrwma <4138> of-the Nations may be entering [Mark 9:322 Peter 2:12/]

 

[heymikey80]

I did not fall off the tater wagon. If one must be pre-elected to be saved, being elected is more important than the cross unless all are pre elected. Those who are not pre elected are not impacted by the cross, pro or con.

The One on the Cross is involved in the choice of God, being God (cf. Ep 1:4). The Christ is the Precedent; the Cross is the Payment; the Resurrection is the Power.

Election might be important to anthropology, true -- if the individual knew his election before his regeneration. But it's not centrally important to soteriology nor theology. They're about God more than they're about the saved.

 

[Benefactor]

JDS, I have a question, but first let me preface it by saying that I am not a Calvinist. However, I firmly believe in Election.

We hear a lot about the Eternal Now of God, it is beyond comprehension and for me a truth that causes me great comfort. For me Absolute Knowledge equals Absolute Eternal Security which is Absolute Election based upon me freely accepting the Grace of God. My free choice of His Grace is Absolute because what God knows will come to pass, must come to pass. It makes you want to shout, glory and I do not jokingly say that.

Now, I don't know if you believe in Election and actually I don't have to know, but I was wondering if you do believe in Election and if so in what manner?

I view election from the model of God electing those He foresaw believe, and we know the Calvinist don't, knowing new there.

I will go one step further: In my "Correct Model" a little needling there, the one called CURE, God sees me in Christ. Man can feely believe the Truth of their dispensation and be saved, for us it is the Gospel of Christ. My election is in Christ and the only way for me to be in Christ is to believe in Him. God saw that and because He exist in the eternal NOW and He does not have His hands tied behind his back he can have any kind of plan that does not violate His Holiness. Therefore, if He planned to elect on the basis of foreseen faith, he can, and that is exactly what He does.

That's it. You see Calvinist and Arminians think they are right but in the end they will be told that CURED is correct. In the mean time we debate and I have to say I have enjoyed reading the post.

 

[archierieus]

But, I am sure that all of the Greek scholars who worked on all of the translations chose could over would for a reason.

They did so because that is the correct translation. I wouldn't think of wanting to change it. The problem simply is that the English word does not convey the full flavor of the original.

And even if Arch is correct, I still don't see that he has yet to make a case that it refuted Calvinism.

I happened to look at the Jn. 12 verses because someone else brought them up. I was intrigued by what was found:

Imperfect tense, middle voice. Taken on its face, it indicates continuing action in the past which the actors initiated and participated in the results.

Since this is a deponent verb, an alternative reading still is continuing action in the past, but the element of the individuals initiating is not present in the morphology. It would be an active rather than middle. Initiation of the action would be in the context.

This is relevant to the question about Calvinist teachings because the first reading shows the Jews initiating and contributing to their blindness, rather than being MADE unable by decision or election of God. Without that reading, as you have pointed out, the verse still is not a slam-dunk for Calvinism because of both immediate and prophetic context. But, standing alone, it is more up for grabs.

 

[Hismessenger]

How many wildernesses do you have to go through, before you believe the word of God is truth.

Everything that He has said in His word has come to pass but yet there are those who still want to debate what is already History and verifiable. God spoke of the flood and man denied it until the waters came and took them away.

God said that Israel would go into captivity many times but they still denied his truth. God said that he would send a redeemer to bring them into the light. He did and still we don't believe.

What we do believe is that our freewill has a bearing upon what God has ordained to be without understanding that whatever you choose, it is going to line up with what God has ordained to be before you ever had a thought. We couldn't have any thoughts if God did not give them to us. Or do you believe otherwise. The creation is for His purpose, not ours. We are only a small part of the greater creation, but man likes to believe that He is the center of it. Newsflash, GOD IS THE CENTER OF IT ALL.

hismessenger

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

How many wildernesses do you have to go through, before you believe the word of God is truth.

Everything that He has said in His word has come to pass but yet there are those who still want to debate what is already History and verifiable. God spoke of the flood and man denied it until the waters came and took them away.

Wilderness........in spirit......awsome!

Ezekiel 8:3 And He putteth forth a form of a hand and is taking me by a lock of my head, and a spirit she is lifting me between the Land and the Heavens, and is bringing me Jerusalem-ward in appearance of Elohiym to portal of gate the inner the one facing north-ward which there a seat of a figure/image of the jealously, the provoking jealously.

Reve 17:3 And he carries me away into a wilderness in spirit, and I saw a Woman sitting on a beast, scarlet, being replete of names of blasphemy having heads, seven, and horns, ten.

 

[Benefactor]

I mentioned a while back that I would jump into this ebb and flow so here are a few verses that refute the notion that the hardening starts with God where He zaps people with the gift of hardness. It is a forced thing similar to the argument of faith as a gift which can not be substantial.

Matthew 19:8. He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.

Mark 3:5. After looking around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, He *said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored.

Why would Jesus be grieved at their hardness of heart if He were to one causing their hardness? Was Jesus angry at them because He hardened their hearts? I think you get the point.

Mark 6:49. But when they saw Him walking on the sea, they supposed that it was a ghost, and cried out; 50. for they all saw Him and were terrified. But immediately He spoke with them and *said to them, "Take courage; it is I, do not be afraid."
51. Then He got into the boat with them, and the wind stopped; and they were utterly astonished, 52. for they had not gained any insight from the {incident of} the loaves, but their heart was hardened.

Mark 8:17. And Jesus, aware of this, *said to them, "Why do you discuss {the fact} that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart?

 

[archierieus]

I am interested in this particular discussion as well.

The writer of Exodus obviously felt it necessary to distinguish between two kinds of hardening - that of God to Pharaoh and of Pharaoh to himself.

Why must they be two different kinds of hardening? If I may take an example from working with epoxy resin, the hardening agent is added to the resin, and the resin hardens. The agent causes the hardening, but the resin hardens. Why couldn't it be that God is the agent causing the hardening, but Pharoah is the one whose heart was hardened?

The illustration is not intended to be an exact fit. Simply that God influenced Pharoah in some way that RESULTED in Pharoah's heart being hardened. So, when God talked about hardening Pharoah's heart, then a chapter or two later Pharoah's heart is hardened, why couldn't they be referring to the same event?

I would like to go through the first few chapters of Exodus and highlight the verses which speak of God's activity regarding Pharaoh, and Pharaoh's response:

But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. 20 So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go.

Exodus 3:19

21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

ch. 4:21

1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Now you will see what I will do to Pharaoh: Because of my mighty hand he will let them go; because of my mighty hand he will drive them out of his country."

ch. 6:1

3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it."

ch. 7:3 - 5

14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is unyielding; he refuses to let the people go."

ch. 7:14

22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh's heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said. 23 Instead, he turned and went into his palace, and did not take even this to heart.

ch. 7:22, 23

15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.

ch. 8:15

19 The magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the LORD had said.

ch. 8:19

7 Pharaoh sent men to investigate and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go.

ch. 9:7

34 When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. 35 So Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had said through Moses.

ch. 9:34, 35

1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."

ch. 10:1, 2

16 Pharaoh quickly summoned Moses and Aaron and said, "I have sinned against the LORD your God and against you. 17 Now forgive my sin once more and pray to the LORD your God to take this deadly plague away from me."

ch. 10:16, 17

18 Moses then left Pharaoh and prayed to the LORD. 19 And the LORD changed the wind to a very strong west wind, which caught up the locusts and carried them into the Red Sea. [b] Not a locust was left anywhere in Egypt. 20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

ch. 10:18 - 20

27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go. 28 Pharaoh said to Moses, "Get out of my sight! Make sure you do not appear before me again! The day you see my face you will die."

ch. 10:27 - 28

9 The LORD had said to Moses, "Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you&#8212;so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt." 10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

ch. 11:9, 10

1 Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 "Tell the Israelites to turn back and encamp near Pi Hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea. They are to encamp by the sea, directly opposite Baal Zephon. 3 Pharaoh will think, 'The Israelites are wandering around the land in confusion, hemmed in by the desert.' 4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this.
5 When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, Pharaoh and his officials changed their minds about them and said, "What have we done? We have let the Israelites go and have lost their services!" 6 So he had his chariot made ready and took his army with him.

ch. 14:1 - 6

15 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Why are you crying out to me? Tell the Israelites to move on. 16 Raise your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea to divide the water so that the Israelites can go through the sea on dry ground. 17 I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. 18 The Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I gain glory through Pharaoh, his chariots and his horsemen."

ch. 14:15 - 18

The foregoing, then, includes the references to the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. Now, what sense can be made of all this? Does the Septuagint shed any light on the question?

Dave

 

[Epiphoskei]

Incorrect. It indicates continuing action, as opposed to continual. The difference may seem slight, but still is significant.

I once again checked, triple checked, and I would have to disagree with you. Intransitive verbs can indeed be middle or passive. As for a deponent, it is morphogically a middle, the active voice having 'deposited' or disappeared thus the word 'deponent.' Two issues then, can an intransitive verb be a middle or passive, the answer is yes; secondly, must a deponent ALWAYS be understood with the active voice, the answer is no. As for the middle voice, it often denotes the subject acting on or for itself.

But as such, it does not always have to be understood in the active voice.

However, it could as well mean that he blinded himself. The grammar would support that. In fact, the verse in question is silent as to the ORIGIN of the Jews' inability to believe, other than two factors, one the possibility presented by the inflected meaning, and second the immediate context.

The verb itself does not indicate that. It simply represents a continuing action, initiated by the individuals.

However, the verse does not say that. It would be an assumption. Context would have significance on that point. Nor does the verse describe a STATE of being, as in blind from birth, a one-time event, such as aorist would convey. It conveys continuing action in the past, hence the imperfect.

Depending on the message he wanted to convey. If he wanted to convey that they had been made incapable by an outside source, for example God, then the aorist would be quite appropriate. The verb then would describe a STATE of being blind. However, the tense and voice chosen indicate continuing ACTION in the past, initiated and participated in by the group described. If John were to want to convey the understanding that the group caused their own inability, and was describing the STATE of inability, then the middle voice would be appropriate, and the aorist would be a good fit. If he wanted to convey that the group caused their own inability, initiated their inability, and continued a course of action, then the imperfect would be a good fit. That is consistent with both the immediate context and the prophetic context as referenced from Isaiah. And those factors are part of exegesis as well.

Dave

I don't want to derail this thread, but I have to say a few final things. An intransitive verb can't take an object. That's the definition of intransitive. There's no action to be translated onto an object. Because a middle verb treats its subject as its own object, an intransitive verb simply cannot be middle. The first thing I was taught in school about deponants was to translate and understand ever deponant verb as purely active. It is middle in form only. The textbooks are explicit in this. This instruction has not been rescinded under three Latin teachers and three Greek teachers. The English translation," they were not able to believe, as Isaiah says, "He blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts," is simply not lacking any significant implication of the tense or voice in Greek.

 

[Benefactor]

Mark 10: 5. But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.

Mark 16: 14. Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining {at the table;} and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen.

How about that, Jesus got upset with the disciples. Now according to Calvinism Jesus was the one who hardened their hearts so if that is the case we have a real big problem.

Acts 19: 9. But when some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the people, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.

2 Cor. 3:14. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16. but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Seems to me that the turning is of the person and because it is recognized then it must be.

If I say by way of my personal testimony, I turned to God, or the Lord etc., I would be accused of attributing my salvation to works. I will stick to the Scripture and Just leave Calvinology and Arminiology to the _______________.

Ephesians 4: 17. So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18. being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; 19. and they, having become callous,have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. 20. But you did not learn Christ in this way, 21. if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,

Hebrews 3:7. Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, 8. DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS, 9. WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED {Me} BY TESTING {Me,} AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS. 10. "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS'; 11. AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY RESt 2. Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is {still} called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

 

[archierieus]

An intransitive verb can't take an object. That's the definition of intransitive.

Agreed, without a doubt.

Because a middle verb treats its subject as its own object, an intransitive verb simply cannot be middle.

Based on the research I have done, and double checked since you mentioned it again, I must disagree.

The first thing I was taught in school about deponants was to translate and understand ever deponant verb as purely active. It is middle in form only. The textbooks are explicit in this. This instruction has not been rescinded under three Latin teachers and three Greek teachers.

You're one ahead of me. I have had two Greek teachers, plus additional post-classroom research. I must disagree with the idea of ONLY translating a deponent verb as purely active. Sounds like what can often happen in a classrom, simplifying subjects to make them easier to understand and apply.

The English translation," they were not able to believe, as Isaiah says, "He blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts," is simply not lacking any significant implication of the tense or voice in Greek.

That is indeed your opinion. I do not believe the text or other data support your limitation. I question if your own perspectives and theological leanings may have influenced your position here? Doing comparative research, I do not find a consensus to support your assertion.