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Calvinism Refuted

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Hismessenger

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Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

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Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You have to look at more than one translation. Some of the new ones, the Nlt, Niv,Rsv and Esv do not say regeneration but if you look up the Greek you will see that they mean the same thing.

hismessenger
 
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Hammster

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The parable does not address the question of preparing the soil.



Well,at crazy me for assuming that Jesus would use a parable that people would understand. I mean even if they didn't get the spiritual aspect of it (because Jesus didn't want them to) they would still understand that a sower PREPARES his field. And that there is hard ground and rocky ground around the edges. And shallow soil in spots.
 
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You raised the question. Apparently you see some difference? If so, please define it Scripturally. If not, then please clarify same.
So if one believes with thier head then what? For it is not with the head or mental knowledge of one that believes into God. Can Man change His own heart? Can he make His own heart clean? David knew the answer to this.. He did not cry out God by my choice and my intellectual knowledg I confess I am a sinner and will now cleanse my heart and my intellectual knowledge so that I may be clean.. He cried Out Oh God against you and you alone have I sinned.. Cleanse my heart and make me as white as snow.. A Godly conviction came upon David a man after Gods own heart and we see he never took credit for having his own free will choice in the matter.. He was brought to His knees and Paul was.. God is effective like that.. When God convicts a man of sin there is no running from God.. One cannot hide from Him.. His will shall be done..
 
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Hammster

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You raised the question. Apparently you see some difference? If so, please define it Scripturally. If not, then please clarify same.



You made some statements that used faith and belief. I am just trying to get clarification on what you mean. It isn't a trick question.
 
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archierieus

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Well,at crazy me for assuming that Jesus would use a parable that people would understand. I mean even if they didn't get the spiritual aspect of it (because Jesus didn't want them to) they would still understand that a sower PREPARES his field. And that there is hard ground and rocky ground around the edges. And shallow soil in spots.

We certainly do that today. I have used a two-bottom plow myself. But not necessarily all the time in those days, depending on how poor the farmer was. Indeed, at times I understand the seed was broadcast. Not everyone could afford a plow or livestock. But at any rate, all of that is an assumption, either way. The Scripture is silent on that point.

Of course, today any good farmer would prepare all his soil, and would even use satellite technology to determine which crops to plant in which type of soil, on his land. A farmer works all his arable land, because the bigger the crop, the more income he can make.

And in the parable, the farmer sowed on all his soil, every type. And so God does.
 
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archierieus

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You made some statements that used faith and belief. I am just trying to get clarification on what you mean. It isn't a trick question.

Nor is mine. You have asked about a distinction. Before I can answer properly, I need to know what you mean by those terms. Please clarify Scripturally, and I shall be glad to respond.
 
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archierieus

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These are those to whom the Lord toiled the soil and made it ready to receive His incorruptable word.

You have here added to Scripture. Please stick with Scripture as it reads.

. He is also the vinedresser and He is the one who does the pruning of His garden..

Different parable. You have provided no exegetical basis for combining them.
 
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Hammster

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Nor is mine. You have asked about a distinction. Before I can answer properly, I need to know what you mean by those terms. Please clarify Scripturally, and I shall be glad to respond.



Okay. That's weird that you would need my definition before you can give me yours. Must make witnessing very interesting.

Faith Hebrews 11:1.

I don't have one off hand for belief. But I don't think it is too ambiguous a word.

Now can I get an answer?
 
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JDS

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Are you sure about that?

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15 ESV

There is only one soil, (the one that has experienced regeneration/new birth), that is capable of bearing fruit of the Spirit and only these believers (born of the Spirit) receive the promise of eternal life. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." Luke 8:8 "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand." Luke 8:10



He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:15-17 ESV

If all you see is the seed, and the soil, you have missed most of the lesson of this parable and the significance of this parable relative to the other 6 kingdom of heaven parables in this chapter. This is a major pivot point of scripture in the ministry of Jesus Christ and it is filled with typical tyipcal meaning. It is mysteries. A mystery is truth that is hidden and must be revealed and taught by the one who reveals it. I doubt that you have a clue what those mysteries are, or how to understand them. You are not alone. No Calvinist would ever understand them because of their presuppositions and a faulty foundation for their theology.

Now, I am not going to tell you about this parable yet. Maybe you will be able to figure it out better if I give you some historical data relative to it and says something about the spiritual applications from the types we are given here.

When dealing with mysteries, it is important to be able to think like God thinks. You can not understand scripture unless you learn to do that. I am trying to help you here. Here is what God says about his thinking:

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

1 cor 2 tells us how to think his thoughts and the first way you need to know about is to get a bible that has his words in it. Here is just one of many things he says about his words.

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 0 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but (in the words) which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

It matters what words you have and you do not have the right ones.

Now, this is essentially what Jesus Says to his disciples in Matt 13. This is near the end of his earthly ministry and he had not made a habit of speaking to the Jews in parables. This is what they asked and his answer:

Mt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

This must have been something new or they would not have asked.
Here is his answer and this answer will also help you to understand some things as you study them out

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you (disciples) to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them (the Jews) it is not given.

Why?


12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Do you understand the word "because" They saw and they heard, but they did not see and they did not hear

They did not perceive:

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Isaiah prophecied about these very Jews that Jesus Christ was dealing with and he said they have closed their eyes and ears and if they had not, they woukld have saw and heard and understood and been converted. Read the words yourself and believe them!

15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

It was not God who closed their eyes and ears, but it was God who spoke to them in parables after it was apparent their heart had waxed gross.

Here is the specific reason he spoke to them in parables:

Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Jn 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

He told them plainly in Jn 8 and they did not believe him.

To the disciples, who were Jews, he said:

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

The difference between the Jews and the disciples was in the interpreter. Jesus Christ revealed the mysteries, and yea, God is the only one who can teach the mysteries. They had come to the right sorce to get their understanding. They recognized Jesus as the Messiah and their ears was open to his words when he spoke and the Jews did not recognize him and would never come to him for instruction.

Therefore, the parables and the mysteries were the means by which Israel, the lost, were blinded.

Anyone of them who would come to him he would not cast out and they could be taught of him. But as long as they refused to come, they would remain blind.

I have gone long here on this post so I will take up the typical teaching and the parable of the sower later.

 
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cygnusx1

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HYPOTHETIC-universalism as in "All can believe"

Your term. There is no such in the Bible. Nor does 'all can believe' equal universalism. More opinions, which from reading some of these threads seems to be a staple item. Sola Scriptura. Scripture please. So if you have a SCRIPTURE whicih states that hypothetic-universalism is "all can believe," please share it. Otherwise, you have only stated your unsupported opinion, which does not have evidentiary value.

you are joking right ....... you fail to see what is clear "all can " is not an absolute statement as in , "all will" , it is hypothetical , but hey you demand to see the words hypothetical in scripture , don't be ridiculous , try showing me the word TRINITY in scripture , oh I see you cannot accept the Trinity either !



Please provide Scriptures which are 'absolute statements' of Christ that all CANNOT believe.

I will but you will reject it.... for certain.

“For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they ... John 12 : 1-50



Cut the rhetoric and opinions and stick with Scripture. Scripture, please.

this attitude is not warming me to you ....
 
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heymikey80

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The order is laid out in Jn. 1:

The true Light enlightens every person coming into the world;
Christ's own did not receive Him, the true Light;
But as many as DID receive the Light, to them He gave authority to be children of God.

This is one theme of the gospel of John BTW, see ch. 4 for example

Definition of 'light' might be interesting. Christ is the 'Light,' Christ draws people to Himself, so not sure there would be a separation. We see that Christ opens the eyes of the blind, both physically and spiritually.
So the ones who have their eyes opened spiritually are saved?
The ones whose eyes Christ opened in the Bible were those who had faith to be healed.
I'm not particularly understanding the position.

Christ is "the Light", but the light both draws and pushes away. It separates light from darkness. In fact the natural result of "the Light" on men is to push men away, because men love evil. "the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God." John 3:19-21

Those receiving the light aren't spoken of in a way that's opposed to Calvinistic ordos. The point of 1:13 is that those who received Him were born of God, not of their own wills. So I'm not entirely understanding how this could happen with a heart that's been illuminated as what it is -- evil.
 
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JDS

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[B said:
cygnusx1[/B];51167972]

you are joking right ....... you fail to see what is clear "all can " is not an absolute statement as in , "all will" , it is hypothetical , but hey you demand to see the words hypothetical in scripture , don't be ridiculous , try showing me the word TRINITY in scripture , oh I see you cannot accept the Trinity either !





I will but you will reject it.... for certain.

“For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they ... John 12 : 1-50





this attitude is not warming me to you ....

You didn't quote enough of that. It is the same passage that is quoted from Is in Matt 13, Mk 4, etc.

37 ¶ But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.


42 ¶ Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

If there is a seeming contradiction in your theology, the problem is never God's, because he does not lie. When this happens, one needs to check his understanding and be willing to adjust to get it right, don't you think?
 
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heymikey80

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HYPOTHETIC-universalism as in "All can believe"

Your term. There is no such in the Bible. Nor does 'all can believe' equal universalism. More opinions, which from reading some of these threads seems to be a staple item. Sola Scriptura. Scripture please. So if you have a SCRIPTURE whicih states that hypothetic-universalism is "all can believe," please share it. Otherwise, you have only stated your unsupported opinion, which does not have evidentiary value.
Well, Scripture does use subjunctive and conditional terminology. If Scripture says "all can believe" and "not all believe", then we really are reduced to the idea of universalism not being actual -- nothing may be particularly in the way of actuality except the real observation. That is, indeed, the definition of the term "hypothetical" or "suppositional" in English.

I don't believe Scripture calls the proclamation of the Gospel an "offer", either. But that wouldn't prevent my considering whether the Gospel is an offer.

Not every concept of Scripture must obtain a name in Scripture, for it to be a concept of Scripture. "Trinity" is the overused example of another term which represents a range of Scriptures, none of which uses the term "Trinity".
 
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heymikey80

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The parable does not address the question of preparing the soil.
ok, but previously you said ...
The sower sowed his seed on all the types of soil. God as the Sower sows the gospel seed on all types of soil Some are responsive, others are not. Of those who are responsive, some get distracted by cares of the world or give up because of hard times. Others hang in there and yield of harvest. In the parable, the response of the individuals determines whether or not there will be a harvest. The seed was sown in all.
... so the soil has an impact, but it has no preparation? Or isn't the preparation simply absent from mention in the parable? Absence of mention isn't mention of absence, right?

I'd also point out, the parable doesn't refer to individuals. It actually refers to types of respondents -- classes -- and observes through the parable not necessarily a cause-effect relationship, but an association of the two. A harvester might actually remark at an individual shoot or two of a plant that produced large yields in thorns. But the general effect of thorny ground is that the plants are choked out.

The growth of plants generally impact the quantity of the harvest -- the good soil is responsible for that. But ... the parable offers no comment on how the soil got to be good, just that the seed, the word, lands indiscriminantly on good and bad areas of the field.

So as far as I can tell, we're talking over points we agree on, and concluding that at least the parable is not really hitting on points we disagree on:
However, just as by the fall man did not cease to be man, endowed with intellect and will, and just as sin, which has spread through the whole human race, did not abolish the nature of the human race but distorted and spiritually killed it, so also this divine grace of regeneration does not act in people as if they were blocks and stones; nor does it abolish the will and its properties or coerce a reluctant will by force, but spiritually revives, heals, reforms, and--in a manner at once pleasing and powerful--bends it back. As a result, a ready and sincere obedience of the Spirit now begins to prevail where before the rebellion and resistance of the flesh were completely dominant. It is in this that the true and spiritual restoration and freedom of our will consists. Thus, if the marvelous Maker of every good thing were not dealing with us, man would have no hope of getting up from his fall by his free choice, by which he plunged himself into ruin when still standing upright. Canons of Dordt, The Effect of Regeneration (3.16)
 
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Well, Scripture does use subjunctive and conditional terminology.


John 1:7 outoV hlqen eiV marturian ina marturhsh peri tou fwtoV ina
panteV pisteuswsin di autou

7. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

John 6:29
apekriqh o ihsouV kai eipen autoiV touto estin to ergon tou qeou ina pisteuhte eiV on apesteilen ekeinoV

29. Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

They are verbs in the subjunctive mood. And they support your statement that but not your conclusion.
 
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archierieus

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you are joking right ....... you fail to see what is clear "all can " is not an absolute statement as in , "all will" ,

Hypothetical? It is a statement of fact, not hypothetical. "All can believe." Please show how it is hypothetical. Please give Scriptural cites. Sola Scriptura.

“For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they ... John 12 : 1-50


Reference is to Isaiah, ch. 6:9, 10. Note the Septuagint:

6:9 και ειπεν πορευθητι και ειπον τω λαω τουτω ακοη ακουσετε και ου μη συνητε και βλεποντες βλεψετε και ου μη ιδητε

6:10 επαχυνθη γαρ η καρδια του λαου τουτου και τοις ωσιν αυτων βαρεως ηκουσαν και τους οφθαλμους αυτων εκαμμυσαν μηποτε ιδωσιν τοις οφθαλμοις και τοις ωσιν ακουσωσιν και τη καρδια συνωσιν και επιστρεψωσιν και ιασομαι αυτους

English translation:

9 Ye shall hear indeed, but ye shall not understand; and ye shall see indeed, but ye shall not perceive. 10 For the heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Now compare the John cite of Isaiah 6:9, 10:

διὰ τοῦτο οὐκ ἠδύναντο πιστεύειν, ὅτι πάλιν εἶπεν Ἠσαΐας, Τετύφλωκεν αὐτῶν τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς καὶ ἐπώρωσεν αὐτῶν τὴν καρδίαν, ἵνα μὴ ἴδωσιν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς καὶ νοήσωσιν τῇ καρδίᾳ καὶ στραφῶσιν, καὶ ἰάσομαι αὐτούς.


Note the verb in v. 39, which is imperfect middle. I.e., it comes from within themselves, they initiate the action and participate in the results(middle voice) That is very consistent with the Septuagint reading as noted above. God sent light, they hated the light, and the more light sent to them, the more they rejected it. This was demonstrated in Christ's ministry. John records how Jesus worked miracle after miracle, made appeal after appeal, culminating in the evidence of Lazarus' resurrection. But they refused to believe, as Jesus said in Jn. 9, they said they see but refused to accept the evidence, so their blindness remains.

this attitude is not warming me to you ....

This is not a popularity contest. Sola Scriptura.
 
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archierieus

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Okay. That's weird that you would need my definition before you can give me yours. Must make witnessing very interesting.

Faith Hebrews 11:1.

I don't have one off hand for belief. But I don't think it is too ambiguous a word.

Now can I get an answer?

One of the characteristics of translating from Gk to Eng. is that there may be more than one Eng. word within the semantic range applicable to a particular Gk. word. pisteuw, pistis, etc., can be translated by more than one Eng. word. And, as well, if I recall there is more than one Gk. word which may be translated as 'believe' or 'faith.' Thus, my inquiry to you. Are we talking about the same Greek word, with diff. Eng. words, or about different Gk. words? Please clarify. Please give Scriptural cites to illustrate what you are referring to.
 
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