Calvinism Refuted

[archierieus]

So the ones who have their eyes opened spiritually are saved?

The ones whose eyes Christ opened in the Bible were those who had faith to be healed.

 

[Hammster]

The ones whose eyes Christ opened in the Bible were those who had faith to be healed.

That wasn't the question.

 

[archierieus]

That wasn't the question.

It is the answer. Compare Jn. 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Same principle. The physical healing illustrated spiritual healing.

 

[Hammster]

It is the answer. Compare Jn. 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."



Same principle. The physical healing illustrated spiritual healing.

So what comes first, belief or faith?

 

[pdudgeon]

So the ones who have their eyes opened spiritually are saved?

let's take the answer from John 12: 44-50 shall we?

Jesus shouted to the crowds, "If you trust me, you are really trusting God who sent me. For when you see me, you are seeing the one who sent me. I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the darkness. If anyone hears me and doesn't obey me, I am not his judge--for I have come to save the world and not to judge it. But all who reject me and my message will be judged at the day of judgment by the truth I have spoken. I don't speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me gave me his own instructions as to what I should say. And I know his instructions lead to eternal life, so I say whatever the Father tells me to say."

 

[student ad x]

All can believe if they hear it and all who do believe it is promised salvation from God himself.

Are you sure about that?

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15 ESV

There is only one soil, (the one that has experienced regeneration/new birth), that is capable of bearing fruit of the Spirit and only these believers (born of the Spirit) receive the promise of eternal life. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." Luke 8:8 "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand." Luke 8:10

How do you believe anything?

He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:15-17 ESV

 

[Robert Pate]

Are you sure about that?

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15 ESV

There is only one soil, (the one that has experienced regeneration/new birth), that is capable of bearing fruit of the Spirit and only these believers (born of the Spirit) receive the promise of eternal life. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." Luke 8:8 "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand." Luke 8:10



He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:15-17 ESV

Good scripture. The seed is the Gospel. The sower is Christ. The field is the world.

The good ground are those that hear the Gospel and embrace it. This is how we are saved by hearing and believing.

 

[Hammster]

Good scripture. The seed is the Gospel. The sower is Christ. The field is the world.



The good ground are those that hear the Gospel and embrace it. This is how we are saved by hearing and believing.

Okay, so then the heart of some are prepared to receive the word and some aren't? Sounds an awful lot like Calvinism.

 

[cygnusx1]

Originally Posted by JDS

All can believe if they hear it and all who do believe it is promised salvation from God himself.
​

Are you sure about that?

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15 ESV

actually student ad x , your using this scripture is mind blowing ; if "All can believe if they hear it and all who do believe it is promised salvation from God himself " as JDS maintains , then this parable is a lie , and should never have been uttered!




but we know it is the TRUTH

 

[archierieus]

Okay, so then the heart of some are prepared to receive the word and some aren't? Sounds an awful lot like Calvinism.

The sower sowed his seed on all the types of soil. God as the Sower sows the gospel seed on all types of soil Some are responsive, others are not. Of those who are responsive, some get distracted by cares of the world or give up because of hard times. Others hang in there and yield of harvest. In the parable, the response of the individuals determines whether or not there will be a harvest. The seed was sown in all.

 

[archierieus]

actually student ad x , your using this scripture is mind blowing ; if "All can believe if they hear it and all who do believe it is promised salvation from God himself " as JDS maintains , then this parable is a lie , and should never have been uttered!

Why? The parable does not say that any were unable to believe.

 

[archierieus]

So what comes first, belief or faith?

Please define your terms Scripturally, and contrast.

 

[Hismessenger]

2Ti 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

If God doesn't do the regeneration then there can be no hearing or seeing to understand the truth

hismessenger

 

[archierieus]

If God doesn't do the regeneration then there can be no hearing or seeing to understand the truth

hismessenger

Where does the New Testament use the word regeneration? Scriptures, please.

 

[cygnusx1]

Why? The parable does not say that any were unable to believe.

the parable clearly teaches only a few are saved , as Christ elsewhere taught , this rules out both UNIVERSALISM and also HYPOTHETIC-universalism as in "All can believe"


quite clearly Christ spoke in absolute terms , nothing hypothetical in Christs parable .

JDS stating "all can believe ........ " is hypothetical , he is NOT saying all will believe , he merely says all can believe , etc ... and this point is diametrically opposed to the absolute statements of Christ ...

It is impossible for a hypothetical statement to trump a FACTUAL absolute statement when they are opposed . eg , could Judas have NOT betrayed Christ after Christ predicted he would ? Of course not.

 

[Hammster]

Please define your terms Scripturally, and contrast.

You said that we are saved by faith. Then you quoted John 3:16 which uses 'believe'. So I am trying to determine from your theology which comes first, if either, or is it simultaneous.

 

[Hammster]

The sower sowed his seed on all the types of soil. God as the Sower sows the gospel seed on all types of soil Some are responsive, others are not. Of those who are responsive, some get distracted by cares of the world or give up because of hard times. Others hang in there and yield of harvest. In the parable, the response of the individuals determines whether or not there will be a harvest. The seed was sown in all.

So God doesn't prepare the soil, either the seed does or man prepares himself? Isn't that a little man-centered?

 

[archierieus]

HYPOTHETIC-universalism as in "All can believe"

Your term. There is no such in the Bible. Nor does 'all can believe' equal universalism. More opinions, which from reading some of these threads seems to be a staple item. Sola Scriptura. Scripture please. So if you have a SCRIPTURE whicih states that hypothetic-universalism is "all can believe," please share it. Otherwise, you have only stated your unsupported opinion, which does not have evidentiary value.

JDS stating "all can believe ........ " is hypothetical , he is NOT saying all will believe , he merely says all can believe , etc ... and this point is diametrically opposed to the absolute statements of Christ ...

Please provide Scriptures which are 'absolute statements' of Christ that all CANNOT believe.

It is impossible for a hypothetical statement to trump a FACTUAL absolute statement when they are opposed . eg , could Judas have NOT betrayed Christ after Christ predicted he would ? Of course not.

Cut the rhetoric and opinions and stick with Scripture. Scripture, please.

 

[archierieus]

So God doesn't prepare the soil, either the seed does or man prepares himself? Isn't that a little man-centered?

The parable does not address the question of preparing the soil.

 

[archierieus]

You said that we are saved by faith. Then you quoted John 3:16 which uses 'believe'. So I am trying to determine from your theology which comes first, if either, or is it simultaneous.

You raised the question. Apparently you see some difference? If so, please define it Scripturally. If not, then please clarify same.