Calvinism Refuted

[JDS]

No I do not "know it" because unlike you I have actually read many Spurgeon and Whitefield sermons. JDS, you have only a minimalists knowledge of Church History, so don't tell me what I know.

William Carey, the Father of Modern Missions was a Particular Baptist... ever heard of them? BTW, the "Particular" in the group's title is for particular redemption (AKA limited atonement).

'I embrace the Calvinistic scheme, not because Calvin, but Jesus Christ, has taught it to me'. Whitefield, the convinced Calvinist, preached the gospel earnestly and persuasively urging and commanding sinners to go to Jesus Christ for salvation."


I said: What is wrong with this picture?

BTW, crurch history is not my authority for my faith and it was not God that made heros out of Whitefield, Spurgeon, and Calvin. It was men. Let's wait for the judgment and we will know what God thought about their particular redemption and denying the simple gospel of good news to all the creatures in the world. Their Calvinism or your calvinism is not the gospel. It is bad news for most of the world.

Calvinist - Hey freind!
Sinner - Yeah
C - Jesus Christ died to save sinners
S - Wow, that is good news because I am a sinner
C - The bad news is that only the elect are sinners
S - How can I know if I sin enough to be elect
C - Don't know, God didn't say. Sorry about your luck

1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

 

[archierieus]

No I do not "know it" because unlike you I have actually read many Spurgeon and Whitefield sermons. JDS, you have only a minimalists knowledge of Church History, so don't tell me what I know.

William Carey, the Father of Modern Missions was a Particular Baptist... ever heard of them? BTW, the "Particular" in the group's title is for particular redemption (AKA limited atonement).

Speaking very proudly as a Protestant (although lacking the titles and influence of the protesting princes) I wish to affirm that the Bible is the foundation of our faith and the test of doctrine. Commentators abound. The same Bible warns of a falling away from the gospel of Jesus Christ, thus the importance of sticking with Scripture, and Scripture as it reads.

Scanning the pages of Christian history, there have been many faithful workers for God in different communions, including RC, EO, Anglican and the various Protestant communions. The fact that these workers have been a blessing in many ways does not, by itself, validate every detail of their particular beliefs. God looks at the heart, and at times winks at our ignorance or misunderstandings of the truth.

But now is the time to welcome the fullness of Bible truth, uncluttered by the detritus of the falling away. And the Bible teaches very plainly, with clear and convincing evidence, that God enlightens everyone coming into the world, that God draws all to Himself, that God loves everyone, that Jesus died for everyone, that God does not desire anyone to perish, and that the gospel invitation is to be given to every living person.

Any teaching which denies these Biblical fundamentals is, on the basis of clear Scripture, false.

Dave

 

[Benefactor]

Hold on everyone I have tickes for this train too.

Now FAITH and BELIEF are the same they are NOUNS.

We don't say, "He belief in God or He faith in God do we?

We would say, "He has faith in God or His belief is grounded in God's word.

However if the author of the comment "Faith and Belief" in a previous post intended to say "Faith" vs. "Believing" then all is well.

From the Greek, for all skin heads: PISTIS (p i s t i V)


be⋅lief  Old English: gelēafa
–noun something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.


faith
–noun

confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

Now the Anglo-Normans is fed And I can see the response: Yep! A fed came by to see me today. They would not mean the same thing.

Dectionary.com is a marvelous thing

 

[Benefactor]

Speaking very proudly as a Protestant (although lacking the titles and influence of the protesting princes) I wish to affirm that the Bible is the foundation of our faith and the test of doctrine. Commentators abound. The same Bible warns of a falling away from the gospel of Jesus Christ, thus the importance of sticking with Scripture, and Scripture as it reads.

Scanning the pages of Christian history, there have been many faithful workers for God in different communions, including RC, EO, Anglican and the various Protestant communions. The fact that these workers have been a blessing in many ways does not, by itself, validate every detail of their particular beliefs. God looks at the heart, and at times winks at our ignorance or misunderstandings of the truth.

But now is the time to welcome the fullness of Bible truth, uncluttered by the detritus of the falling away. And the Bible teaches very plainly, with clear and convincing evidence, that God enlightens everyone coming into the world, that God draws all to Himself, that God loves everyone, that Jesus died for everyone, that God does not desire anyone to perish, and that the gospel invitation is to be given to every living person.[/QUOTE]

When I read this I though I was going to be rapture on the spot! Another person has been CURED from Calvinism and Arminianism.Another person still believes their is room at the cross for "others" It's shouten time in Heaven.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGgaqKo98VU

Any teaching which denies these Biblical fundamentals is, on the basis of clear Scripture, false.

Dave

 

[archierieus]

We are intellectual creatures. We process the information we receive and make a decision about it.

Agreed. Pretty much all of life involves receiving information, processing it and making a decision about it. Everything from which shirt to wear today to whether or not to accept a job offer, whether or not to start a family etc etc. There is an abundance of information extant about God. We all read, hear, see, and all of it is information which is processed. Many little decsions are made in the process, and bigger decisions are based on those little decisions.

It is rather extraordinary to acknowledge that a person does all these things--and that is beyond dispute--but that in one specific area, a person is incapable of knowing about or making a decision about THAT AREA. Such a position is not credible.

But again, for those who, as on another thread, had proposed 'secret knowledge' of some sort, then well, what can I say? The Hindus teach something similar, as do the Mormons.

 

[Hammster]

Nothing makes me or anyone believe. We are intellectual creatures. We process the information we receive and make a decision about it. No one can believe in Jesus Christ if they do not hear, according to the text of Ro 10. All can believe if they hear it and all who do believe it is promised salvation from God himself.



This is not rocket science. How do you believe anything?

So there we have it. It took awhile to get to this point, but now we know that those who are saved are better able to understand things and process them. They are just smarter.


So when the gospel was preached to the Jew and Greeks, and it was an offense to the Jews and a stumbling block to the greeks, really what Paul meant was that they weren't as smart as him, but he was too polite to say that. After all, when Paul, the very educated Jew, very knowledgeable of the bible, heard about Christianity he just jumped on board.

The point if my 'illustration' is to show that processing information has nothing to do with it. That is what 1 Corinthians 1:18 ff is all about. If it was all about believing because you were able to process the information, the only smart people would be saved and the stupid would be lost.

 

[drstevej]

Calvinist - Hey freind!
Sinner - Yeah
C - Jesus Christ died to save sinners
S - Wow, that is good news because I am a sinner
C - The bad news is that only the elect are sinners
S - How can I know if I sin enough to be elect
C - Don't know, God didn't say. Sorry about your luck

Only the part in red is valid. The rest is a shameful distortion and is either bait or ignorance of Calvinism.

Calvinism dies not teach only the elect are sinners.
And for that matter "Sorry about your luck" is more Arminian than Calvinistic.

 

[drstevej]

All can believe if they hear it and all who do believe it is promised salvation from God himself.

2 Corinthians 4
3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[archierieus]

The point if my 'illustration' is to show that processing information has nothing to do with it. That is what 1 Corinthians 1:18 ff is all about.

Incorrect. What that verse says is that the worldly-minded person does not welcome the things of God. They are foolishness to him. Processing info is not the issue, is not mentioned there.

 

[JDS]

Hold on everyone I have tickes for this train too.

Now FAITH and BELIEF are the same they are NOUNS.

We don't say, "He belief in God or He faith in God do we?

We would say, "He has faith in God or His belief is grounded in God's word.

However if the author of the comment "Faith and Belief" in a previous post intended to say "Faith" vs. "Believing" then all is well.

From the Greek, for all skin heads: PISTIS (p i s t i V)


be⋅lief  Old English: gelēafa
–noun something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.


faith
–noun

confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

Now the Anglo-Normans is fed And I can see the response: Yep! A fed came by to see me today. They would not mean the same thing.

Dectionary.com is a marvelous thing

Ha! I knew that but I thought I might squeeze it by. Hadn't counted on you eating the razor soup today and being this sharp.

 

[Hammster]

Speaking very proudly as a Protestant (although lacking the titles and influence of the protesting princes) I wish to affirm that the Bible is the foundation of our faith and the test of doctrine. Commentators abound. The same Bible warns of a falling away from the gospel of Jesus Christ, thus the importance of sticking with Scripture, and Scripture as it reads.



Scanning the pages of Christian history, there have been many faithful workers for God in different communions, including RC, EO, Anglican and the various Protestant communions. The fact that these workers have been a blessing in many ways does not, by itself, validate every detail of their particular beliefs. God looks at the heart, and at times winks at our ignorance or misunderstandings of the truth.



But now is the time to welcome the fullness of Bible truth, uncluttered by the detritus of the falling away. And the Bible teaches very plainly, with clear and convincing evidence, that God enlightens everyone coming into the world, that God draws all to Himself, that God loves everyone, that Jesus died for everyone, that God does not desire anyone to perish, and that the gospel invitation is to be given to every living person.



Any teaching which denies these Biblical fundamentals is, on the basis of clear Scripture, false.



Dave

Okay, I have a question. I assume that when you say that God does not desire anyone should perish that you are referring to 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some count slowness but is patient towards you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance".

If this means what you think it means, the when would Christ be able to return? There will never be an opportunity for all to hear, make a wise decision, and repent. Well,at least until people stop having babies. I guess that is possible. Or not.

 

[JDS]

2 Corinthians 4
3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

oops, there is an "if" in there. Shame on you for not seeing it. Now, everyone is lost at some point. He did not say the gospel was hid from the unelect.

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Lets see. What do we do with our minds? Oh, we think. We process information. Light equals understanding - The entrance of thy word giveth light. It giveth understanding to the simple.

Darkness equals ignorance - Ep 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

How does the god of this world blind the minds so the light of the gospel will not get in?

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Answer: Replace the truth with a counterfeit.

Bait and switch!

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[archierieus]

Okay, I have a question. I assume that when you say that God does not desire anyone should perish that you are referring to 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some count slowness but is patient towards you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance".

If this means what you think it means, the when would Christ be able to return? There will never be an opportunity for all to hear, make a wise decision, and repent. Well,at least until people stop having babies. I guess that is possible. Or not.

I have watched various ideas batted back and forth, and recognize them as ideas. However, when it comes to Scripture, Our limited ability to comprehend things which are beyond us as humans, is not a valid consideration when it comes to accepting Scripture as it reads. One concern I have had in following a number of discussions is seeing ideas ABOUT a subject form the basis or schema for understanding Scripture. But that is backwards from what it should be. We accept Scripture as the only valid schema.

Dave

 

[Hammster]

Incorrect. What that verse says is that the worldly-minded person does not welcome the things of God. They are foolishness to him. Processing info is not the issue, is not mentioned there.

Really? Because I didn't see worldly-minded anywhere in that passage. But, for the sake of argument, let's say that you're right. How, then are the worldly-minded saved? Aren't we all worldly-minded before salvation?

 

[archierieus]

Really? Because I didn't see worldly-minded anywhere in that passage.

That is the meaning of psuchikos. See Louw-Nida.

Aren't we all worldly-minded before salvation?

Precisely. And that is what 'free will' is about. How God reaches out to each unsaved person. Steps are outlined in the book of John:

1) God enlightens every person coming into the world;
2) Christ draws every person to Himself;
3) Whosoever accepts the light, and believes on Jesus, 'shall have eternal life.'

God is involved at every step of the way, the enlightening, the drawing, the appeal, strenghtening the will to respond, urging a person to respond. Thus, the glory goes to God. Whatever is done, is done through God and with God's help.

 

[Hammster]

I have watched various ideas batted back and forth, and recognize them as ideas. However, when it comes to Scripture, Our limited ability to comprehend things which are beyond us as humans, is not a valid consideration when it comes to accepting Scripture as it reads. One concern I have had in following a number of discussions is seeing ideas ABOUT a subject form the basis or schema for understanding Scripture. But that is backwards from what it should be. We accept Scripture as the only valid schema.



Dave

I suppose that is a better answer than some try to give. Fair enough.

 

[archierieus]

I suppose that is a better answer than some try to give. Fair enough.

 

[Hammster]

That is the meaning of psuchikos. See Louw-Nida.







Precisely. And that is what 'free will' is about. How God reaches out to each unsaved person. Steps are outlined in the book of John:



1) God enlightens every person coming into the world;

2) Christ draws every person to Himself;

3) Whosoever accepts the light, and believes on Jesus, 'shall have eternal life.' God is involved at every step of the way, the enlightening, the drawing, the appeal, strenghtening the will to respond, urging a person to respond. Thus, the glory goes to God. Whatever is done, is done through God and with God's help.

So whosoever accepts the light, then they are drawn?

 

[archierieus]

So whosoever accepts the light, then they are drawn?

The order is laid out in Jn. 1:

The true Light enlightens every person coming into the world;
Christ's own did not receive Him, the true Light;
But as many as DID receive the Light, to them He gave authority to be children of God.

This is one theme of the gospel of John BTW, see ch. 4 for example

Definition of 'light' might be interesting. Christ is the 'Light,' Christ draws people to Himself, so not sure there would be a separation. We see that Christ opens the eyes of the blind, both physically and spiritually.

 

[Hammster]

The order is laid out in Jn. 1:



The true Light enlightens every person coming into the world;

Christ's own did not receive Him, the true Light;

But as many as DID receive the Light, to them He gave authority to be children of God.



This is one theme of the gospel of John BTW, see ch. 4 for example



Definition of 'light' might be interesting. Christ is the 'Light,' Christ draws people to Himself, so not sure there would be a separation. We see that Christ opens the eyes of the blind, both physically and spiritually.

So the ones who have their eyes opened spiritually are saved?