Calvinism Refuted

[JDS]

JOHN OWEN WRITES:
The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:



All the sins of all men. why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, "Because of unbelief." I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

Some of the sins of all men. all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.

All the sins of some men, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, THIS IS THE BIBLICAL POSITION…

This is the wrong question and it presumes that sin has passed on all men because all men die when, in reality, death passes upon all men because all have sinned. The wages of sin is death. Men are not sinners by being born into the world, like calvinists insist they are. Men are condemned when they sin. To him THAT KNOWETH to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. One would need to know the law in order to sin. All unrighteousness is sin, we are told. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. One would need to have intellect and knowledge to exercise faith. Before one sins, he is innocent. A v icious dog can kill a human and God does not charge the dog with sin and punish it in the Lake of Fire for eternity.

God has condemned all men that have sinned. So the question should be. Can men be saved by simply believing in Jesus Christ who died to pay the penalty for all sin of all men. The answer is a resounding "yes"!

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Calvinists need to change the word "Might be" to "will be".

 

[nobdysfool]

You are applying Calvinist dogma to the scriptures and you refuse to allow them to correct you. The scriptures are profitable for "correction".

Indeed they are. Too bad you're not benefiting from that correction.

The substitution of biblical terms is the area where calvinism is most seductive.God does not save us by our permission, he saves us by our faith. Salvation is not an entitlement, it is the gift of God. It is not infused upon the unwitting and sleepy, it is received as a gift by the believer. It is these things because of the one time sacrifice of Jesus Christ for all men everywhere.

Any way you slice it, your view puts man in the driver's seat, regarding his own salvation.

The gospel is easy to understand but it is hard to believe.

But according to you, anyone can believe it whenever they want.

Calvinists do not believe it and therefore change it.

More lies. The not-so-subtle implication here is that Calvinists are not Believers. You sir, are bearing false witness. Repent of your sin.

Calvinism is not the gospel of Jesus Christ and I am warning you about it.

By spreading lies and bearing false witness? You are in error and need correction, far more than the Calvinists do.

The gospel is good news, glad tidings to every creature. Why? Because it has the ability to save every creature.

But you have said we are not saved by the gospel, we are saved by faith. That much is true. Where you err is in thinking that God's many statements of fact about what happens when one believes implies native ability to believe apart from His Grace. Thus you steal some of the credit for salvation for yourself and your own wise choice. God does not share His Glory with another.

 

[Benefactor]

hey bro , consider sticking this in your sig , then we won't have to go around in these circles ;

GL writes;

"Concerning the possible usage of kosmos to mean all mankind without exception in the redemptive context of I John 2:2, let the reader observe that kosmos is used differently at least 21 out of 23 times elsewhere in the epistle. As a matter of fact, the identical term "whole world" is used in I John 5:19 where it cannot possibly mean all mankind absolutely. John writes: "we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness (in the wicked one)." Can this be true of the believer who is in Christ? Let the reader judge."

Context is King, for each use of any word within the sentence, and immediate subject under consideration, in addition to the word itself, its mood, case, number and person as well play important roles in its correct interpretation. What I have presented is sound grammatical conclusions without using “situational theological manipulation” in my hermeneutic practices. . If we press a hermeneutic of this nature to force meaning on other uses of a word then we will come up with Pandora box of situation theology. I know you though you nailed me to the wall on that one, NO NOT SO.

GL ?? G_____________ L_______________ fill in the blanks.

 

[drstevej]

Psalm 51
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

So was David's mom a tramp?

 

[Hismessenger]

So if God chose Christ to save man, before man ever had a thought since He wasn't created When this occurred. Man randomly chose his fate, not being subject to the will of The creator. And it just so happened that He sinned and needed salvation from the one who was Chose before man ever had a thought.

Do you not see the futility of this line of thought. Mans actions must line up with the predetermined will of God. If it was of free will, then when Jonah chose not to go to Nineveh, God had no control over Him and His choice would have stood according to free will.

hismessenger

 

[JDS]

So salvation isn't by our permission, but by faith. So not everyone gets faith?

Faith (in Jesus Christ) cometh by hearing and hearing (How), by the word of God.

If this is true it stands to reason that one cannot believe the sky is blue and be saved. One must believe what is revealed to us about Jesus Christ.

Ro 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

To whom? To everyone that believeth.

Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Who believeth UNTO righteousness according to the text? Right! Man believeth, not the elect believeth.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Who then can believe?

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Answer! Only those who hear.

Ro 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Saving faith though comes by believing and not simply by hearing.

Ro 10:18 But I say, Have they (Israel) not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Ro 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

He did not strecth forth his hands unto an unelected people or hew would have said it.

But God by his grace makes no distinction in who he will save:

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[Benefactor]

Psalm 51
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

So was David's mom a tramp?

Where did that come from? What does that have to do with anything?

That is what I call a Disconnect of major proportion. I mean baby it is out of this world, beyond the BLACK HOLE, whatever that is.
As you can see this Lady Cat is shaking her head and is showing a blush from embarrassment over such an assertion about such a wonderful mother as that of David's. Oh my, what is this world coming to, no respect for their elders. I will pray for him

 

[JDS]

Indeed they are. Too bad you're not benefiting from that correction.




Any way you slice it, your view puts man in the driver's seat, regarding his own salvation.



But according to you, anyone can believe it whenever they want.



More lies. The not-so-subtle implication here is that Calvinists are not Believers. You sir, are bearing false witness. Repent of your sin.



By spreading lies and bearing false witness? You are in error and need correction, far more than the Calvinists do.



But you have said we are not saved by the gospel, we are saved by faith. That much is true. Where you err is in thinking that God's many statements of fact about what happens when one believes implies native ability to believe apart from His Grace. Thus you steal some of the credit for salvation for yourself and your own wise choice. God does not share His Glory with another.

Nobodysfool,

I am not going to be subtle about this. I do not consider calvinism the gospel of Jesus Christ , but another gospel. Men are saved by the gospel of Jesus Christ because it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth. Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father. Pre-election is not the way.

Let me say that I do not believe that everyone who calls themselves calvinists are lost. I don't believe that and I know men are ensnared by false teaching. But I do not believe anyone can get saved by believing the Calvinist TULIP and I do not even think any of you try to win converts with it.

Spurgeon said Calvinism is the gospel but he did not preach it to the lost. So, what was he preaching? Well, whatever it was, it was not the gospel according to him but his preaching won converts.

Calvinism says men cannot be saved. It says the cross of Jesus Christ was ineffective for most of humanity. It says God was not propitiated for the sins of the whole world by ythe blood of Christ. It says the good news is a limited atonement and men ought to praise God that they are going to hell and to thank him for it.

Ps 150:6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

Go out there and tell the unelect about the awfulness of the Lake of Fire and they are going there by the decree of God and there is no remedy and ask them to join you in praise to God about it and see what you get.

Calvism is not good news!

 

[JDS]

Psalm 51
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

So was David's mom a tramp?

No, she was a sinner.

 

[nobdysfool]

Faith (in Jesus Christ) cometh by hearing and hearing (How), by the word of God.

If this is true it stands to reason that one cannot believe the sky is blue and be saved. One must believe what is revealed to us about Jesus Christ.

Ro 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

To whom? To everyone that believeth.

Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Who believeth UNTO righteousness according to the text? Right! Man believeth, not the elect believeth.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Who then can believe?

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Answer! Only those who hear.

Ro 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Saving faith though comes by believing and not simply by hearing.

Ro 10:18 But I say, Have they (Israel) not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Ro 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

He did not strecth forth his hands unto an unelected people or hew would have said it.

But God by his grace makes no distinction in who he will save:

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

It should be obvious that the hearing spoken of is not casual hearing. Likewise, you state in essence that we must believe to believe. Nothing but double-talk. Your theology crumbles when it is subjected to analysis. Your refusal to see that is not my problem.

Whosoever does not imply ability. It merely states a truism. A promise, to those who do believe.

 

[nobdysfool]

Nobodysfool,

I am not going to be subtle about this. I do not consider calvinism the gospel of Jesus Christ , but another gospel. Men are saved by the gospel of Jesus Christ because it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth. Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father. Pre-election is not the way.

Let me say that I do not believe that everyone who calls themselves calvinists are lost. I don't believe that and I know men are ensnared by false teaching. But I do not believe anyone can get saved by believing the Calvinist TULIP and I do not even think any of you try to win converts with it.

Spurgeon said Calvinism is the gospel but he did not preach it to the lost. So, what was he preaching? Well, whatever it was, it was not the gospel according to him but his preaching won converts.

Calvinism says men cannot be saved. It says the cross of Jesus Christ was ineffective for most of humanity. It says God was not propitiated for the sins of the whole world by ythe blood of Christ. It says the good news is a limited atonement and men ought to praise God that they are going to hell and to thank him for it.

Ps 150:6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

Go out there and tell the unelect about the awfulness of the Lake of Fire and they are going there by the decree of God and there is no remedy and ask them to join you in praise to God about it and see what you get.

Calvism is not good news!

Whatever you're going on about is not Calvinism. Where you get this filth is beyond me. You are deliberately spreading falsehoods and bearing false witness against Calvinists. You need to repent of your falsehoods.

You say you don't believe all Calvinists are unsaved, but that means that you believe some of them are. I can guess that there are several in this forum you consider to be unsaved, and I would not be surprised to see my name on that list. You would be dead wrong about that.

You do not have the authority, nor the right to sit in judgment over anyone, especially Calvinists.

 

[drstevej]

No, she was a sinner.

How is the psalmist relating this to his conception?
What's his point if your view is correct?

 

[Hammster]

Faith (in Jesus Christ) cometh by hearing and hearing (How), by the word of God.



If this is true it stands to reason that one cannot believe the sky is blue and be saved. One must believe what is revealed to us about Jesus Christ.



Ro 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.



To whom? To everyone that believeth.



Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.



Who believeth UNTO righteousness according to the text? Right! Man believeth, not the elect believeth.



Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.



Who then can believe?



13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?



Answer! Only those who hear.



Ro 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



Saving faith though comes by believing and not simply by hearing.



Ro 10:18 But I say, Have they (Israel) not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.



Ro 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.



He did not strecth forth his hands unto an unelected people or hew would have said it.



But God by his grace makes no distinction in who he will save:



11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So what is the difference, if any, between faith and belief?

 

[JDS]

So what is the difference, if any, between faith and belief?

One is a noun and the other is a verb.

 

[drstevej]

Nobodysfool,

Spurgeon said Calvinism is the gospel but he did not preach it to the lost. So, what was he preaching? Well, whatever it was, it was not the gospel according to him but his preaching won converts.

Really? Check it out.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]EDITOR'S NOTE: These messages are part of the inaugural ceremonies held at the Metropolitan Tabernacle, London, when it first opened. Spurgeon had already preached the first sermons there, beginning March 25, while the building was not yet quite finished. This, however, was the official opening ceremony, and Spurgeon presided, choosing several fellow pastors to expound the doctrines of Calvinism. This guide is offered the reader wishing to follow the familiar TULIP acronym:[/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
  [*]Total depravity—"Human Depravity," by Evan Probert (message 2).
  [*]Unconditional Election—"Election", by John Bloomfield (message 1).
  [*]Limited Atonement—"Particular Redemption," by J. A. Spurgeon (message 3).
  [*]Irresistible Grace—"Effectual Calling," by James Smith (message 4).
  [*]Perseverance of the Saints—"The Final Perseverance of Believers in Christ Jesus," by William O'Neill (message 5).[/FONT]

and there is the great evangelist, George Whitefield

The Message

George Whitefield skillfully adapted his message to his hearers - the noisy crowds on London's Kennington Common and at Moorfields and the aristocrats in the home of Selina, the Countess of Huntingdon. He believed that the unchanging gospel is 'the power of God' for all sorts of sinners (Rom. 1:16).

What was Whitefield's message? The doctrines known as Calvinism: the depravity of sinners and the freeness of God's grace; he rejoiced in the substitutionary atonement of Christ for God's elect; he proclaimed that all those for whom Christ died will persevere to the end of their lives and will then be glorified in heaven. Where did he learn these truths? 'My doctrines I had from Jesus Christ and His apostles; I was taught them of God', he wrote, and added two years later, 'I embrace the Calvinistic scheme, not because Calvin, but Jesus Christ, has taught it to me'. Whitefield, the convinced Calvinist, preached the gospel earnestly and persuasively urging and commanding sinners to go to Jesus Christ for salvation. A mark of revival is heartfelt gospel preaching whether the preacher is a Calvinist, such as George Whitefield, or an Arminian, such as John Wesley - both men preached that salvation is through Christ alone. source

and here is Whitefield's rebuke of Wesley

O dear Sir, what kind of reasoning—or rather sophistry—is this! Hath not God, who hath appointed salvation for a certain number, appointed also the preaching of the Word as a means to bring them to it? Does anyone hold election in any other sense? And if so, how is preaching needless to them that are elected, when the gospel is designated by God himself to be the power of God unto their eternal salvation? And since we know not who are elect and who reprobate, we are to preach promiscuously to all. For the Word may be useful, even to the non-elect, in restraining them from much wickedness and sin. However, it is enough to excite to the utmost diligence in preaching and hearing, when we consider that by these means, some, even as many as the Lord hath ordained to eternal life, shall certainly be quickened and enabled to believe. And who that attends, especially with reverence and care, can tell but he may be found of that happy number?

 

[JDS]

How is the psalmist relating this to his conception?
What's his point if your view is correct?

Haven't we been down this road before?

 

[Hammster]

One is a noun and the other is a verb.

I guess I had that coming.

So you get faith by believing. What makes you believe?

 

[JDS]

Really? Check it out.

and there is the great evangelist, George Whitefield

and here is Whitefield's rebuke of Wesley

....and where is limited atonement in there? He would not have won a single convert if he had preached the TULIP. He couched it in free willism and you know it.

'I embrace the Calvinistic scheme, not because Calvin, but Jesus Christ, has taught it to me'. Whitefield, the convinced Calvinist, preached the gospel earnestly and persuasively urging and commanding sinners to go to Jesus Christ for salvation."

What is wrong with this picture?

 

[drstevej]

....and where is limited atonement in there? He would not have won a single convert if he had preached the TULIP. He couched it in free willism and you know it.

No I do not "know it" because unlike you I have actually read many Spurgeon and Whitefield sermons. JDS, you have only a minimalists knowledge of Church History, so don't tell me what I know.

William Carey, the Father of Modern Missions was a Particular Baptist... ever heard of them? BTW, the "Particular" in the group's title is for particular redemption (AKA limited atonement).

 

[JDS]

I guess I had that coming.

So you get faith by believing. What makes you believe?

Nothing makes me or anyone believe. We are intellectual creatures. We process the information we receive and make a decision about it. No one can believe in Jesus Christ if they do not hear, according to the text of Ro 10. All can believe if they hear it and all who do believe it is promised salvation from God himself.

This is not rocket science. How do you believe anything?