Calvinism Refuted

[Robert Pate]

All of the apostles except for John died violent deaths for preaching the Gospel.

There is this stress in the New Testament especially in the writings of Paul to go into all of the world and preach the good news of the Gospel.

The apostle Paul suffered much as he went into the world to preach the Gospel. He was beaten several times, He was tried as a criminal, He was shipwrecked, The Jews were constantly trying to kill him, He was thrown into prison twice. No one has suffered more persecution for preaching the Gospel than the apostle Paul. At one time Paul refered to the Gospel as the "Gospel of contention" every where he went to preach the Gospel there was contention. Paul's life was one of turmoil and persecution. He finally lost his head because of his commitment to the Gospel.

If men are saved by being predestinated why did Paul suffer so much for the sake of the Gospel?

 

[Hammster]

All of the apostles except for John died violent deaths for preaching the Gospel.



There is this stress in the New Testament especially in the writings of Paul to go into all of the world and preach the good news of the Gospel.



The apostle Paul suffered much as he went into the world to preach the Gospel. He was beaten several times, He was tried as a criminal, He was shipwrecked, The Jews were constantly trying to kill him, He was thrown into prison twice. No one has suffered more persecution for preaching the Gospel than the apostle Paul. At one time Paul refered to the Gospel as the "Gospel of contention" every where he went to preach the Gospel there was contention. Paul's life was one of turmoil and persecution. He finally lost his head because of his commitment to the Gospel.



If men are saved by being predestinated why did Paul suffer so much for the sake of the Gospel?

He suffered because he was preaching an unpopular message.

 

[Robert Pate]

He suffered because he was preaching an unpopular message.

Yes, He was preaching that God justifies the ungodly.

"But to him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness," Romans 4:5.

 

[nobdysfool]

Anyone who would define the sovereignty of God (a none biblical term, BTW) to mean that a person cannot hear and comprehend something as simple as the gospel of Jesus Christ and decide to believe it or disbelieve it, is incredibly naive, to say the very least. Who could get grown men with high IQ's to believe such a thing as that, and what does it say for those who will believe it?

You fellows have several years experiencing the human phenomenon called life. You know how things work. You have self identity. You make decisions based on information you receive every day. If you are in a building without windows and someone tells you it is raining outside, you pick up the umbrella. You believe them if it is a credible source.

To say a person, hearing the gospel, cannot believe it, is not a question of theology, it is a question of belief. The gospel is just too simple for you to believe it. but it is a fact from the scriptures. Go and preach the gospel to every creature and whosoever believes it will be saved, Jesus Christ said to ones who had witnessed his resurrection and had believed it.

The gospel is simple and an aborigine in the outback of Australia, or anyone else in the world, can believe it if he hears it and will be saved if he does even though he has never been in contact with it beforehand. This is a promise from God Almighty.

Look unto me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth, for I am God and there is none else, God says.

The gospel:
Men are sinners because they sin. They have no power against it.
The wages of sin is death in the Lake of Fire forever
Sin is a conscious and deliberate act by one who knows he is sinning.
The merciful and gracious God who created man loved the world and did not wish them to perish in the Lake of Fire
He sent his son, who did have power over sin and who never sinned, to finally be a perfect sacrifice for sinful men and to substitute in their death, every one of them.
But the sting of sin is death and death could not hold him because he had never sinned and so he broke the power of death and overcame it by rising from the dead.
God was satisfied by his sacrifice on their behalf and he gave all condemned men a promise that he would forgive their sin and save them from death in the Lake of fire if they would just believe him and accept his son as their saviour.
He poured out the Spirit of his son into all the world, like water, so all who would believe him and receive him by faith in his sacrifice on their behalf could have the Life of his son.
Those who will simply believe that God has made a way of salvation through the death and resurrection of his son will receive the same Spirit of life that raised Jesus Christ from the dead and quickened him and they will have life instead of death and no more condemnation by sin, though they may still commit acts of sin.

There is no trick to this and there are no exceptions of men and there is no condition of a previous election to be saved. There is a condition of faith. One must believe it!

Just as I thought. You can't answer the scriptures quoted, so you try to deflect by insulting our intelligence. Won't work. Let the record show that you cannot answer the clear truths set forth in that thread.

Claiming that the Sovereignty of God is not a biblical term is about as weak an argument as I have ever seen from anti-Calvinists. So, we'll start there. Do you believe that God is Sovereign over His Creation, and do you understand what sovereign means? Based on your own words, I wonder if you do understand.

Men sin because they are sinners. They are born sinners. That is Biblical FACT. Sin is not just a choice. For those in Adam (and the entire human race is in Adam except for those who are in Christ, and that not of their own doing, but God's doing), it is their very nature. It goes beyond the act of sinning. In actuality, the natural man (that is, the unsaved, the unregenerate, the unbeliever) cannot NOT sin. He can choose to not commit a particular sin, but he cannot choose to not sin entirely.

 

[heymikey80]

If men are saved by being predestinated why did Paul suffer so much for the sake of the Gospel?

Non Sequitur. Paul and the Apostles suffered so much for the sake of the Gospel because they were predestined by he Spirit to a changed heart -- a changed will -- which made them heartily willing and able to give all for the spread of the Gospel of Christ.

 

[Benefactor]

A tutorial

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OebZJzB7W_c

I am glad some can use humor and have fun. Even though I don't agree I loved it.

 

[Benefactor]

Reasons to be an Arminian​

1. If getting saved once was great, Arminians get to get saved over and over and over...

2. Most of the world believes in free will so even atheists have your back on this point.

3. You get to make the eternal difference and God can't stop ya!

4. When (if) you get to Heaven you lose your free will and finally don't have to sweat hanging on to Jesus by your fingernails.

5. Calvinist caricatures are fun to paint.

7. Daisies have more petals than tulips. More fun to play the He loves me, He loves me not game. Those darn 5 petal tulips always end up with He loves me... boring!

As soon as I find my FLY SWAT I am going to kill those pesky Calvinist Flies on your signature section

 

[Robert Pate]

Non Sequitur. Paul and the Apostles suffered so much for the sake of the Gospel because they were predestined by he Spirit to a changed heart -- a changed will -- which made them heartily willing and able to give all for the spread of the Gospel of Christ.

Predestinated by the Spirit to a changed heart ???? Thats a new one.

In other words they were just mindless robots programed by God to preach the Gospel. They did not have a free will. They did it because God made them do it.

This teaching that man is a mindless robot that cannot make any decisions for himself and cannot chose Christ as his savior is not to be found in the bible.

 

[nobdysfool]

Predestinated by the Spirit to a changed heart ???? Thats a new one.

In other words they were just mindless robots programed by God to preach the Gospel. They did not have a free will. They did it because God made them do it.

This teaching that man is a mindless robot that cannot make any decisions for himself and cannot chose Christ as his savior is not to be found in the bible.

You're right, it's not in the Bible, and we don't teach that it is. Your lack of correct knowledge of Calvinism is a huge stumbling block for you, because you keep making false statements about Calvinism, and false charges as to what it teaches. Refusing to be corrected, or to take the initiative to learn correctly what it is you think to rail against only proves the bankruptcy of your view, as evidenced by your constant attempts to tear down others to try and make yourself look better by comparison.

It's not working.

 

[Hismessenger]

How many times have you played war and decided to turn the good guy to bad or vice-versa. How many times have you wished that you could join in the war you were pretending to have with your play soldiers. How many times when you were young did you wish you could fly?

Just a few thoughts for you to think about and to realize that God did all these things with His creation because He is God and He can.

hismessenger

 

[heymikey80]

Predestinated by the Spirit to a changed heart ???? Thats a new one.

You mean ... you've never heard of Calvinism 'til this very moment?
It's not a new view.

Children's Catechism
​

Q. 38. Can any one go to heaven with this sinful nature?
A. No; our hearts must be changed before we can be fit for heaven.
Q. 39. What is a change of heart called?
A. Regeneration.
Q. 40. Who can change a sinner's heart?
A. The Holy Spirit alone.

​

In other words they were just mindless robots programed by God to preach the Gospel. They did not have a free will. They did it because God made them do it.

Ah. Now I understand. This is simply lashing out at what you don't know.

And not knowing, refusing to learn what you don't know -- the mindless robotics appears on the opposite side of Calvinists.

those of whom one could hardly expect it have shown no truth, equity, and charity at all in wishing to make the public believe:* * *
that this teaching means that God predestined and created, by the bare and unqualified choice of his will, without the least regard or consideration of any sin, the greatest part of the world to eternal condemnation; that in the same manner in which election is the source and cause of faith and good works, reprobation is the cause of unbelief and ungodliness; ... and very many other slanderous accusations of this kind which the Reformed churches not only disavow but even denounce with their whole heart. Canons of Dordt

​

This teaching that man is a mindless robot that cannot make any decisions for himself and cannot chose Christ as his savior is not to be found in the bible.

As your assertions are becoming Exhibit A that the opposing view is where the mindless robotics appear, I'd urge you, if you have a mind for reading, to review some of the defining texts of Calvinism to see what it is they actually assert. People indeed do make decisions for themselves. But as you've cited the verse yourself as to the uniform decision of all, Rom 11:32, I've no reason to contradict you while you contradict yourself.

 

[JDS]

The gospel:
Men are sinners because they sin. They have no power against it.
The wages of sin is death in the Lake of Fire forever
Sin is a conscious and deliberate act by one who knows he is sinning.
The merciful and gracious God who created man loved the world and did not wish them to perish in the Lake of Fire
He sent his son, who did have power over sin and who never sinned, to finally be a perfect sacrifice for sinful men and to substitute in their death, every one of them.
But the sting of sin is death and death could not hold him because he had never sinned and so he broke the power of death and overcame it by rising from the dead.
God was satisfied by his sacrifice on their behalf and he gave all condemned men a promise that he would forgive their sin and save them from death in the Lake of fire if they would just believe him and accept his son as their saviour.
He poured out the Spirit of his son into all the world, like water, so all who would believe him and receive him by faith in his sacrifice on their behalf could have the Life of his son.
Those who will simply believe that God has made a way of salvation through the death and resurrection of his son will receive the same Spirit of life that raised Jesus Christ from the dead and quickened him and they will have life instead of death and no more condemnation by sin, though they may still commit acts of sin.

There is no trick to this and there are no exceptions of men and there is no condition of a previous election to be saved. There is a condition of faith. One must believe it!

The good news that God sent to the world was not that Jesus Christ cannot save or that he will not save. That is not good news. That is bad news for those to whom God chooses not to save and there is no way to somehow make that good news. For God to send out evangelists to say that Christ died for your sins in that false system is making God complicit in a lie, if he has never had any intention of saving them.

I have given the gospel above. Men must believe the gospel to be saved. An important part of the gospel is that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world and that he can and will save anyone who will simply believe the gospel. The type of belief that is required is defined in this verse as trust.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

I suspect that you men do not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ because of human reasoning that it cannot be that simple. There must be more to it than that. It defies intellectualism. The message is to every individual on the planet. "If you believe that Jesus Christ dierd in your place and rose again and that he can and will save you, you will be saved".

If you change the message, it is no longer the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is another gospel and it cannot save.

I call on you men who are denying this to repent and believe the gospel before it is too late.

 

[heymikey80]

If you'd like a point by point critique, maybe a new thread's in order. But for a couple:

• At Pentecost, it wasn't the entire crowd on whom the Spirit was poured out. It wasn't everyone in the world, either. It was twelve people.
• For sin being a conscious, deliberate act, David shouldn't have asked for cleansing from his secret faults (they weren't conscious), and Paul shouldn't have said "for that all sinned" (they were neither conscious nor deliberate on the part of those who sinned as he said).
• God doesn't reward propositional acceptance with salvation. "Even the demons believe, and tremble."

The good news that God sent to the world was not that Jesus Christ cannot save or that he will not save. That is not good news. That is bad news for those to whom God chooses not to save and there is no way to somehow make that good news.

The abolition of evil is always bad news for the Evil One ... so ... the Gospel is not ever really good news by this measure.

Fortunately, this is a modern idea of "good" being "good for me".

In reality, the good news is news about good overcoming evil. It is downright bad news for anyone remaining in evil and sin. It always will be unwelcome to evil.

For God to send out evangelists to say that Christ died for your sins in that false system is making God complicit in a lie, if he has never had any intention of saving them.

More from Pope JDS dispensing more bulls along a path which seemeth right.

I have given the gospel above.

You haven't. This is canonizing highly specific ideas. I'll listen to Scripture instead. I won't listen to Pope JDS. He won't be by my side at the Last Day.

The One Who speaks in Scripture is the One I want by my side.

 

[drstevej]

The gospel:
Men are sinners because they sin. They have no power against it.
The wages of sin is death in the Lake of Fire forever
Sin is a conscious and deliberate act by one who knows he is sinning.
The merciful and gracious God who created man loved the world and did not wish them to perish in the Lake of Fire
He sent his son, who did have power over sin and who never sinned, to finally be a perfect sacrifice for sinful men and to substitute in their death, every one of them.
But the sting of sin is death and death could not hold him because he had never sinned and so he broke the power of death and overcame it by rising from the dead.
God was satisfied by his sacrifice on their behalf and he gave all condemned men a promise that he would forgive their sin and save them from death in the Lake of fire if they would just believe him and accept his son as their saviour.
He poured out the Spirit of his son into all the world, like water, so all who would believe him and receive him by faith in his sacrifice on their behalf could have the Life of his son.
Those who will simply believe that God has made a way of salvation through the death and resurrection of his son will receive the same Spirit of life that raised Jesus Christ from the dead and quickened him and they will have life instead of death and no more condemnation by sin, though they may still commit acts of sin.

There is no trick to this and there are no exceptions of men and there is no condition of a previous election to be saved. There is a condition of faith. One must believe it!

The good news that God sent to the world was not that Jesus Christ cannot save or that he will not save. That is not good news. That is bad news for those to whom God chooses not to save and there is no way to somehow make that good news. For God to send out evangelists to say that Christ died for your sins in that false system is making God complicit in a lie, if he has never had any intention of saving them.

I have given the gospel above. Men must believe the gospel to be saved. An important part of the gospel is that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world and that he can and will save anyone who will simply believe the gospel. The type of belief that is required is defined in this verse as trust.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

I suspect that you men do not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ because of human reasoning that it cannot be that simple. There must be more to it than that. It defies intellectualism. The message is to every individual on the planet. "If you believe that Jesus Christ dierd in your place and rose again and that he can and will save you, you will be saved".

If you change the message, it is no longer the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is another gospel and it cannot save.

I call on you men who are denying this to repent and believe the gospel before it is too late.

So anyone who differs with your presentation is unsaved?

Including:

all Calvinists

Yes or No

 

[JDS]

So anyone who differs with your presentation is unsaved?

Including:

all Calvinists

Yes or No

A Test:

If God sends out evangelists with instructions to preach the gospel to every creature and the definition of the gospel is "good news", glad tidings," and he says whosoever will believe it he will save, how can it be good news, glad tidings to many, if not most creatures if God has sovereignly decided they can not be saved and they have no ability to believe it?

You are divinely created to go to hell is not good news to any one on the planet.

What are you preaching? Do you believe God will save sinners through Christ or not? Your answer will answer you own question.

 

[&Abel]

The gospel:
Men are sinners because they sin. They have no power against it.
The wages of sin is death in the Lake of Fire forever
Sin is a conscious and deliberate act by one who knows he is sinning.
The merciful and gracious God who created man loved the world and did not wish them to perish in the Lake of Fire
He sent his son, who did have power over sin and who never sinned, to finally be a perfect sacrifice for sinful men and to substitute in their death, every one of them.
But the sting of sin is death and death could not hold him because he had never sinned and so he broke the power of death and overcame it by rising from the dead.
God was satisfied by his sacrifice on their behalf and he gave all condemned men a promise that he would forgive their sin and save them from death in the Lake of fire if they would just believe him and accept his son as their saviour.
He poured out the Spirit of his son into all the world, like water, so all who would believe him and receive him by faith in his sacrifice on their behalf could have the Life of his son.
Those who will simply believe that God has made a way of salvation through the death and resurrection of his son will receive the same Spirit of life that raised Jesus Christ from the dead and quickened him and they will have life instead of death and no more condemnation by sin, though they may still commit acts of sin.

There is no trick to this and there are no exceptions of men and there is no condition of a previous election to be saved. There is a condition of faith. One must believe it!

The good news that God sent to the world was not that Jesus Christ cannot save or that he will not save. That is not good news. That is bad news for those to whom God chooses not to save and there is no way to somehow make that good news. For God to send out evangelists to say that Christ died for your sins in that false system is making God complicit in a lie, if he has never had any intention of saving them.

I have given the gospel above. Men must believe the gospel to be saved. An important part of the gospel is that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world and that he can and will save anyone who will simply believe the gospel. The type of belief that is required is defined in this verse as trust.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

I suspect that you men do not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ because of human reasoning that it cannot be that simple. There must be more to it than that. It defies intellectualism. The message is to every individual on the planet. "If you believe that Jesus Christ dierd in your place and rose again and that he can and will save you, you will be saved".

If you change the message, it is no longer the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is another gospel and it cannot save.

I call on you men who are denying this to repent and believe the gospel before it is too late.

beautifully said!

 

[heymikey80]

So anyone who differs with your presentation is unsaved?

Including:

all Calvinists

Yes or No

Let's not neglect including the Apostles.

So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
"The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,"and
"A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense."
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
​

 

[&Abel]

let me ask you this:

do you actually believe the bible is teaching this or do you just not want god to have died for everyone?

is it for a false sense of security?

whats the deal?

 

[drstevej]

beautifully said!

Did it tickle your ears?

 

[&Abel]

2 Peter 1

10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His (AA)calling and (AB)choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never (AC)stumble