Calvinism Refuted

[&Abel]

Did it tickle your ears?

truth has that effect on me

 

[heymikey80]

If God sends out evangelists with instructions to preach the gospel to every creature and the definition of the gospel is "good news", glad tidings," and he says whosoever will believe it he will save, how can it be good news, glad tidings to many, if not most creatures if God has sovereignly decided they can not be saved and they have no ability to believe it?

You are divinely created to go to hell is not good news to any one on the planet.

What are you preaching? Do you believe God will save sinners through Christ or not? Your answer will answer you own question.

Equivocation and Red Herring.

1. It's Good News when good overcomes evil, even if that's bad news to evil. Expanding this to glad tidings, it's no glad tidings to evil when good wins out.
2. God's sovereignty didn't decide people had no ability. The whole family of Adam gave it up when they corrupted themselves in sin and became rebels. Their wills are consistently unwilling to desire rightly, being in rebellion against God.
3. People aren't fence-sitters when it comes to God. They can't be. There's no fence to sit on. The Gospel, like every gospel contemporary with it (surely you know, evangellion is not a religious word in the early First Century), was an offer to rebels. No one receiving the Gospel would be a fence-sitter, because no gospel was offered to fence-sitters.
4. Paul's already stated those He foreknew, He predestined ... He glorified.

 

[heymikey80]

Let's not neglect including the Apostles.

So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
"The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,"and
"A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense."
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
​

let me ask you this:

do you actually believe the bible is teaching this or do you just not want god to have died for everyone?

is it for a false sense of security?

whats the deal?

Let me ask you this:

Do you actually believe the Bible when it teaches this or do you just want God to have died for everyone?

Is it for a false sense of security?

What's the deal?

In answer to your questions, of course the Bible teaches what it says. We represent the Bible when it teaches what it says.

There's no security inherent in representing the Bible for what it says. There is only the truth the Bible presents. We follow the Spirit into the truth.

The deal is that understanding and grappling with the depth of truth, overwhelms shallow lies about what's being said. Recognizing the truth in all its senses shines a stark light on our lives and enables us to walk in it, instead of the small comfort of a shallow lie hiding that light.

 

[Benefactor]

Romans 9:322. Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33. just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

 

[heymikey80]

Romans 11 1I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." 4But what is God’s reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened

 

[JacobHall86]

I would just like to know if the Atonement is unlimited, why are people still going to hell?

 

[DD2008]

Wow. By looking over this thread it looks like Calvinism has refuted everyone else.

You guys should change the name of the thread to "Calvinism can't be refuted."

 

[JDS]

If you'd like a point by point critique, maybe a new thread's in order. But for a couple:

• At Pentecost, it wasn't the entire crowd on whom the Spirit was poured out. It wasn't everyone in the world, either. It was twelve people.
• For sin being a conscious, deliberate act, David shouldn't have asked for cleansing from his secret faults (they weren't conscious), and Paul shouldn't have said "for that all sinned" (they were neither conscious nor deliberate on the part of those who sinned as he said).
• God doesn't reward propositional acceptance with salvation. "Even the demons believe, and tremble."

The abolition of evil is always bad news for the Evil One ... so ... the Gospel is not ever really good news by this measure.

Fortunately, this is a modern idea of "good" being "good for me".

In reality, the good news is news about good overcoming evil. It is downright bad news for anyone remaining in evil and sin. It always will be unwelcome to evil.

More from Pope JDS dispensing more bulls along a path which seemeth right.

You haven't. This is canonizing highly specific ideas. I'll listen to Scripture instead. I won't listen to Pope JDS. He won't be by my side at the Last Day.

The One Who speaks in Scripture is the One I want by my side.

May I gently and kindly point out that you once again are finding it necessary to redefine terms to bolster your presuppositions. This is common with Calvinism. Your comments concerning "good" are tragic and I must add, silly. When you do things like this, you are replacing the gospel of Jesus Christ with another gospel. The gospel of Jesus Christ is good news, glad tidings to every creature. There should not be any contention here among Christians about that fact.

Maybe you have not thought much on the gospel and exactly what Jesus Christ said about it. Let me quote some things he said for your consideration.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

What is it that Jesus Christ wants men to believe? He wants them to believe that he has overcome death, that he has walked away from the grave.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And what is the gospel in this context? Right! Jesus Christ has walked away from the grave. He is risen from the dead. He has overcome death. And why is this good news to every creature? Because every creature can be saved from certain death by simply believing it.

Calvinism says that men cannot believe and Jesus Christ says one must believe or they will be damned. Calvinism says men are damned whether they believe or not, having been chosen beforehand for damnation by God himself. They are at odds with Jesus Christ here.

There is no sense in which it is good news to tell many men on the earth that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and is alive for ever more if that news cannot affect their destiny, but rather make them more guilty.

What does God say about the gospel?

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

To everyone who is elect beforehand? No! To everyone that believes it. God has authorized the preaching of the gospel to save souls and he has promised to save everyone who will believe it.

There is no mystery here. Calvinists do not believe this. Therefore, they do not believe the gospel! They replace it with another gospel that they admit cannot save and is not good news to the majority of people on the earth. In fact, it is the worst news anyone could possibly hear considering the awfulness of the Lake of Fire where they are created by God himself to go. The cross of Jesus Christ did no good for these people. The resurrection is just a story to them. So what, they might say.

The good news is that Jesus Christ, the son of God, became a man and came into the world to save sinners.

He is able to save to the uttermost them that come to God by him seeing he ever liveth to make entercession for them.

Let the Spirit and the bride say come, and let him that heareth say come, and let him that is athrist come, and whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely.

The invitation of God for salvation is to all men everywhere.

It is not too late to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. God can save anyone who will believe his testimony of himself. He is the saviour of all men, specially them that believe. Will you believe it?

 

[Hammster]

Hebrews 9:11-15

But when Christ appeared as high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all (is this everyone? We will see), having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since death has taken place for the redemption transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promis of the eternal inheritance.

(I am skipping to the end. Feel free to read the in between parts. I am not trying to hid anything)

v. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and ater this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly away Him.

I am confident that my non-Calvinist brethren will find some way to make this a universal atonement, so this will be interesting.

But let's ask this: How many times does Christ appear to make an offering? Once.

Is He a mediator? Yes.

Whom does a mediator mediate for? Two opposing parties.

How is He able to mediate? He has an interest in both parties.

How does He have and interest in both parties? He is God and He is man.

Who receives the promise of eternal inheritance? The called.

Can this one sacrifice, this propitiation, be applied to all men? Only if either all men are universally saved, or Jesus mediates for the lost and then you have to say that Jesus has union with the lost, and then it just keeps going downhill from there. So you can try to make the point, but think it through.

When is judgment? After death.

Who isn't afraid of judgment? The many for whom Christ died.

Y'all have fun now. I will try to check back later.

 

[Benefactor]

Romans 11 1I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." 4But what is God’s reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened

This is so true because it is true. I know you like that.

But you forgot something. You forgot to add the following verses to get the full picture.

25. For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26. and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27. "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." 28. From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of {God's} choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

Those that are lost are still from the standpoint of "God's" choice a special people, a nation, because God promised to them certain things. Keep reading for the answer.

29. for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[Hammster]

Wow. By looking over this thread it looks like Calvinism has refuted everyone else.

You guys should change the name of the thread to "Calvinism can't be refuted."

That's a good idea, but in reality, that's a given.

 

[Hammster]

This is so true because it is true. I know you like that.

But you forgot something. You forgot to add the following verses to get the full picture.



Those that are lost are still from the standpoint of "God's" choice a special people, a nation, because God promised to them certain things. Keep reading for the answer.

Are you saying that all of Israel will be saved? (maybe I am coming in the middle of and argument. If so, then please ignore and I will let Mikey handle it.)

 

[Benefactor]

Are you saying that all of Israel will be saved? (maybe I am coming in the middle of and argument. If so, then please ignore and I will let Mikey handle it.)

When looking at these passages it is clear to me that as Paul finished his statement concerning Israel he draws a clear distinction on their purpose. The ending verses of the chapter clearly point to lost Israel and at a point in time many of the Jews will receive Christ and they are the only ones that will enter the 1K kingdom as saved Jews.

28. From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of {God's} choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29. for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (the promises made to them in the OT, land, king, etc)

When they go into the 1K kingdom they will all be saved but they will have children that are not saved as will the gentiles too.

 

[JDS]

Originally Posted by heymikey80

• At Pentecost, it wasn't the entire crowd on whom the Spirit was poured out. It wasn't everyone in the world, either. It was twelve people.

You obviously have not read Acts 2 very thouroughly. The Holy Spirit was poured out on all Israel in accordance with the promise of the OT prophet, Joel. Since he was poured out in such abundance, any and all of Israel was free to receive him on the conditions outlined in Acts 2:38.
Repent (They had killed the Messiah, Jesus Christ)
Be baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins
Then they will receive the Holy Ghost

Later, the Samaritans would believe and would have the same conditions. The apostles came down from Jerusalem after they had believed and been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost. See Acts 8

Still later when God included the gentiles in Acts 10, the Jews with Peter recognized that the Holy Ghost had been poured out on the gentiles like he was on the Jews at the beginning. Only with them, there was no conditions except faith in the gospel. They were baptized after receiving the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is said to be the gift of God and can and must be received by faith in the name of Jesus Christ if we are to be saved. He is poured out in abundance in the whole world like water and anyone can drink of him.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Lord. Titus 3:5,6

The word "shed" here is the same word as poured in Acts 2.

This truth greatly rebukes the calvinistic doctrines regarding the ministry of the Holy Ghost.
​

 

[heymikey80]

Originally Posted by heymikey80

• At Pentecost, it wasn't the entire crowd on whom the Spirit was poured out. It wasn't everyone in the world, either. It was twelve people.

You obviously have not read Acts 2 very thouroughly. The Holy Spirit was poured out on all Israel in accordance with the promise of the OT prophet, Joel. Since he was poured out in such abundance, any and all of Israel was free to receive him on the conditions outlined in Acts 2:38.
Repent (They had killed the Messiah, Jesus Christ)
Be baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins
Then they will receive the Holy Ghost

Later, the Samaritans would believe and would have the same conditions. The apostles came down from Jerusalem after they had believed and been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost. See Acts 8

Still later when God included the gentiles in Acts 10, the Jews with Peter recognized that the Holy Ghost had been poured out on the gentiles like he was on the Jews at the beginning. Only with them, there was no conditions except faith in the gospel. They were baptized after receiving the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is said to be the gift of God and can and must be received by faith in the name of Jesus Christ if we are to be saved. He is poured out in abundance in the whole world like water and anyone can drink of him.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Lord. Titus 3:5,6

The word "shed" here is the same word as poured in Acts 2.

This truth greatly rebukes the calvinistic doctrines regarding the ministry of the Holy Ghost.
​

Oh, I've read it. Along with Paul's point that the Holy Spirit has not been poured out on everyone in a change of heart (Rom 2:28-3:9).

And that's really what's needed. Cf. Rom 10:10.

This kind of mistake happens when history is read as theology.

 

[Robert Pate]

Originally Posted by heymikey80

• At Pentecost, it wasn't the entire crowd on whom the Spirit was poured out. It wasn't everyone in the world, either. It was twelve people.

You obviously have not read Acts 2 very thouroughly. The Holy Spirit was poured out on all Israel in accordance with the promise of the OT prophet, Joel. Since he was poured out in such abundance, any and all of Israel was free to receive him on the conditions outlined in Acts 2:38.
Repent (They had killed the Messiah, Jesus Christ)
Be baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins
Then they will receive the Holy Ghost

Later, the Samaritans would believe and would have the same conditions. The apostles came down from Jerusalem after they had believed and been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost. See Acts 8

Still later when God included the gentiles in Acts 10, the Jews with Peter recognized that the Holy Ghost had been poured out on the gentiles like he was on the Jews at the beginning. Only with them, there was no conditions except faith in the gospel. They were baptized after receiving the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is said to be the gift of God and can and must be received by faith in the name of Jesus Christ if we are to be saved. He is poured out in abundance in the whole world like water and anyone can drink of him.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Lord. Titus 3:5,6

The word "shed" here is the same word as poured in Acts 2.

This truth greatly rebukes the calvinistic doctrines regarding the ministry of the Holy Ghost.
​

More than just the twelve received the baptism of the Holy spirit Acts 2:7-13.

The same day Peter preached the Gospel and 5000 were saved. The days that followed thousand became Christians by the preaching of the Gospel.

 

[cygnusx1]

More than just the twelve received the baptism of the Holy spirit Acts 2:7-13.

The same day Peter preached the Gospel and 5000 were saved. The days that followed thousand became Christians by the preaching of the Gospel.

it certainly still wasn't everyone in the world was it

 

[Hismessenger]

Only the twelve received the Holy Spirit. Many confuse the 120 which is a different day and time prior to the day of Pentecost. Look at the time line given for it is there to be read. The other part of this is that it was only a manifestation of the spirit which had already been given to the twelve in John 20. Read it for yourself.

The scripture says all Israel will be saved and is true. That Israel is not the Israel of the flesh but of the promise made to Abraham for they are His seed by faith. The Israel of Promise will be saved, all.

hismessenger

 

[Hammster]

Hebrews 9:11-15

But when Christ appeared as high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all (is this everyone? We will see), having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since death has taken place for the redemption transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promis of the eternal inheritance.

(I am skipping to the end. Feel free to read the in between parts. I am not trying to hid anything)

v. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and ater this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly away Him.

I am confident that my non-Calvinist brethren will find some way to make this a universal atonement, so this will be interesting.

But let's ask this: How many times does Christ appear to make an offering? Once.

Is He a mediator? Yes.

Whom does a mediator mediate for? Two opposing parties.

How is He able to mediate? He has an interest in both parties.

How does He have and interest in both parties? He is God and He is man.

Who receives the promise of eternal inheritance? The called.

Can this one sacrifice, this propitiation, be applied to all men? Only if either all men are universally saved, or Jesus mediates for the lost and then you have to say that Jesus has union with the lost, and then it just keeps going downhill from there. So you can try to make the point, but think it through.

When is judgment? After death.

Who isn't afraid of judgment? The many for whom Christ died.

Just thought I would give it another shot.

 

[Benefactor]

A fundamental problem in Calvinistic soteriology is the concept that God regenerated the person or saved the person, then gave the person a special gift of faith so that the person will believe and get regenerated unto, what? He is already regenerated. So now man is double regenerated, double saved.

By the way the Bible process is not the same as this view

Sinner running from God
God - Seeking to save man
God audibly called the first preacher
The first preacher preached the message
Some believed some did not
Repentance and faith in the content of the message resulted in "Regeneration"

Let me see

• Message first
• Decision to receive the message
• Action taken concerning the message Repentance and "Your Faith" "their faith"
• Next salvation, new birth, born again, born from above, Regeneration - all the same thing
• Next - living by the same faith, their faith; that they believe with.
• Rocket science - no
• Calvinistic - no
• Arminian - no
• Biblical - Yes