Calvinism Refuted

[cygnusx1]

How about Judas? He chose to disobey God.

Those who lived before Christ didn't have the benefit of his atonement during their lives.

Esau became a Godly man and his people were honored by God for hundreds of years after his death. It was only after disobedience and betrayal that the Edomites became cursed.


I think it is you that needs to read some scripture, and by all means, Augustine and Aquinas.

St. Augustine(427 AD):

Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine. There is, to begin with, the fact that God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards.

There are, however, persons who attempt to find excuse for themselves even from God. The Apostle James says to such: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man. But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then, when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. James 1:13-15 Solomon, too, in his book of Proverbs, has this answer for such as wish to find an excuse for themselves from God Himself: The folly of a man spoils his ways; but he blames God in his heart. Proverbs 19:3 And in the book of Ecclesiasticus we read: Say not, It is through the Lord that I fell away; for you ought not to do the things that He hates: nor say, He has caused me to err; for He has no need of the sinful man. The Lord hates all abomination, and they that fear God love it not. He Himself made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of His counsel. If you be willing, you shall keep His commandments, and perform true fidelity. He has set fire and water before you: stretch forth your hand unto whether you will. Before man is life and death, and whichsoever pleases him shall be given to him. Sirach 15:11-17 Observe how very plainly is set before our view the free choice of the human will.

St. Thomas Aquinas on Predestination and Invincible Ignorance​

St. Thomas Aquinas maintained a doctrine of predestination, according to which “invincible ignorance”-- that ignorance in which some reside in which it is impossible for them to come to a belief in the Catholic Faith -- is an adequate means to contribute to the accomplishment of the purpose of the universe, which is the manifestation of the goodness of God.

Moreover, in order that the perfection of the universe be achieved, that a variety of unequal things manifest complexly the simple goodness of God, it is also necessary that some things fail in their good, so that there be all grades of goodness, including those that fail in their good:



“The perfection of the universe requires that there should be inequality in things, so that every grade of goodness may be realized. Now, one grade of goodness is that of the good which cannot fail. Another grade of goodness is that of the good which can fail in goodness, and this grade is to be found in existence itself; for some things there are which cannot lose their existence as incorruptible things, while some there are which can lose it, as things corruptible. As, therefore, the perfection of the universe requires that there should be not only beings incorruptible, but also corruptible beings; so the perfection of the universe requires that there should be some which can fail in goodness, and thence it follows that sometimes they do fail. Now it is in this that evil consists, namely, in the fact that a thing fails in goodness.” (1, 48, 2)



And it is necessary for the perfection of the universe that some things fail in their good, also so that some other goods may be, which would otherwise not be possible. Hence God allows certain creatures to fail in their good for the perfection of the whole:



“God and nature and any other agent make what is best in the whole, but not what is best in every single part, except in order to the whole, as was said above. And the whole itself, which is the universe of creatures, is all the better and more perfect if some things in it can fail in goodness, and do sometimes fail, God not preventing this. This happens, firstly, because "it belongs to Providence not to destroy, but to save nature," as Dionysius says; but it belongs to nature that what may fail should sometimes fail; secondly, because, as Augustine says, "God is so powerful that He can even make good out of evil.” Hence many good things would be taken away if God permitted no evil to exist; for fire would not be generated if air was not corrupted, nor would the life of a lion be preserved unless the ass were killed. Neither would avenging justice nor the patience of a sufferer be praised if there were no injustice.” (1, 48, 2)

if you wish for more , just ask !

 

[chestertonrules]

St. Thomas Aquinas on Predestination and Invincible Ignorance​

St. Thomas Aquinas maintained a doctrine of predestination, according to which “invincible ignorance”-- that ignorance in which some reside in which it is impossible for them to come to a belief in the Catholic Faith -- is an adequate means to contribute to the accomplishment of the purpose of the universe, which is the manifestation of the goodness of God.

Moreover, in order that the perfection of the universe be achieved, that a variety of unequal things manifest complexly the simple goodness of God, it is also necessary that some things fail in their good, so that there be all grades of goodness, including those that fail in their good:



“The perfection of the universe requires that there should be inequality in things, so that every grade of goodness may be realized. Now, one grade of goodness is that of the good which cannot fail. Another grade of goodness is that of the good which can fail in goodness, and this grade is to be found in existence itself; for some things there are which cannot lose their existence as incorruptible things, while some there are which can lose it, as things corruptible. As, therefore, the perfection of the universe requires that there should be not only beings incorruptible, but also corruptible beings; so the perfection of the universe requires that there should be some which can fail in goodness, and thence it follows that sometimes they do fail. Now it is in this that evil consists, namely, in the fact that a thing fails in goodness.” (1, 48, 2)



And it is necessary for the perfection of the universe that some things fail in their good, also so that some other goods may be, which would otherwise not be possible. Hence God allows certain creatures to fail in their good for the perfection of the whole:



“God and nature and any other agent make what is best in the whole, but not what is best in every single part, except in order to the whole, as was said above. And the whole itself, which is the universe of creatures, is all the better and more perfect if some things in it can fail in goodness, and do sometimes fail, God not preventing this. This happens, firstly, because "it belongs to Providence not to destroy, but to save nature," as Dionysius says; but it belongs to nature that what may fail should sometimes fail; secondly, because, as Augustine says, "God is so powerful that He can even make good out of evil.” Hence many good things would be taken away if God permitted no evil to exist; for fire would not be generated if air was not corrupted, nor would the life of a lion be preserved unless the ass were killed. Neither would avenging justice nor the patience of a sufferer be praised if there were no injustice.” (1, 48, 2)

if you wish for more , just ask !

No thanks, I have the book.

Nothing there remotely relevant to our discussion, as you know.

I would say nice try, but it wasn't.

 

[Hammster]

That is an evil dogma that ignores much of the bible, as I have demonstrated.

You are spreading a corrupt gospel.

I tell people that they are sinners and need to repent and accept the gift of God for salvation. If they are elect, they believe. (The work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Not my words.) If they are the non-elect, they won't. The same sun that hardens the clay melts the ice.

 

[cygnusx1]

No thanks, I have the book.

Nothing there remotely relevant to our discussion, as you know.

I would say nice try, but it wasn't.

your last line tells me where your at .... confrontational , cockey and beyond being reasoned with , ie , in the flesh.

Paul was right "knowledge puffs up" !

honey or vinegar >

 

[JDS]

No Calvinist can claim salvation as a promise from God. Calvinists are asking the world to believe that God has chosen them to salvation without God saying it. It is a hope so salvation and one that is bred from self esteem. Calvinists on here who claim that God favors them for an unknown reason can only point us to their good works as evidence that they and they alone have been so chosen of God. Ask any Calvinist here to produce a promise from God that they have a personal election. They cannot do it.

Theirs is a works religion steeped in pride. They are willing to show up at the judgment to present to God their own lifestyle as evidence of a conversion. Those of us who have a promise from God are fully confident that we are saved because God has promised that whosoever will let him come and take of the water of life freely. Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. We have done that and our confidence is in these promises and not in some election process that is a figment of a wayward religion. We are sure that all people can be saved because God said it. He knows whom he will save. He knows he will save anyone who will believe. This refutes Calvinism.

 

[nobdysfool]

No Calvinist can claim salvation as a promise from God. Calvinists are asking the world to believe that God has chosen them to salvation without God saying it. It is a hope so salvation and one that is bred from self esteem. Calvinists on here who claim that God favors them for an unknown reason can only point us to their good works as evidence that they and they alone have been so chosen of God. Ask any Calvinist here to produce a promise from God that they have a personal election. They cannot do it.

Theirs is a works religion steeped in pride. They are willing to show up at the judgment to present to God their own lifestyle as evidence of a conversion. Those of us who have a promise from God are fully confident that we are saved because God has promised that whosoever will let him come and take of the water of life freely. Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. We have done that and our confidence is in these promises and not in some election process that is a figment of a wayward religion. We are sure that all people can be saved because God said it. He knows whom he will save. He knows he will save anyone who will believe. This refutes Calvinism.

Just because you say so, eh?

In reality, what you have described as "Calvinism", bears absolutely no resemblance to the real thing. If you think that what you have said is what Calvinism is, you are willfully blind, ignorant, and lacking in basic reading comprehension and language skills. What you are describing is NOT Calvinism, in any way shape or form. You sir, are making a show of knocking down a straw man that you yourself created. As such, it is nothing but show, smoke, and mirrors, and a deception you are trying to pull off, to hide the paucity, bankruptcy and outright unscriptural nature of your own beliefs.

Calvinism refuted? Hardly!

 

[Hammster]

No Calvinist can claim salvation as a promise from God. Calvinists are asking the world to believe that God has chosen them to salvation without God saying it. It is a hope so salvation and one that is bred from self esteem. Calvinists on here who claim that God favors them for an unknown reason can only point us to their good works as evidence that they and they alone have been so chosen of God. Ask any Calvinist here to produce a promise from God that they have a personal election. They cannot do it.



Theirs is a works religion steeped in pride. They are willing to show up at the judgment to present to God their own lifestyle as evidence of a conversion. Those of us who have a promise from God are fully confident that we are saved because God has promised that whosoever will let him come and take of the water of life freely. Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. We have done that and our confidence is in these promises and not in some election process that is a figment of a wayward religion. We are sure that all people can be saved because God said it. He knows whom he will save. He knows he will save anyone who will believe. This refutes Calvinism.

I was preparing my response when I remembered that you posted something in this thread yesterday. And I responded. Then you show up today with another monologue and expect what? Another response?

So unless I can see that you are willing to engage in a discussion, dialogue, or debate, I see no point in refuting you.

 

[nobdysfool]

I was preparing my response when I remembered that you posted something in this thread yesterday. And I responded. Then you show up today with another monologue and expect what? Another response?

So unless I can see that you are willing to engage in a discussion, dialogue, or debate, I see no point in refuting you.

His (JDS) is the sound of one hand clapping....he accuses us of that which he is guilty of himself: insufferable pride.

 

[Hammster]

His (JDS) is the sound of one hand clapping....he accuses us of that which he is guilty of himself: insufferable pride.

I know I am prideful. I just try not be insufferably so. I'm not sure how good I am doing.

 

[Robert Pate]

No Calvinist can claim salvation as a promise from God. Calvinists are asking the world to believe that God has chosen them to salvation without God saying it. It is a hope so salvation and one that is bred from self esteem. Calvinists on here who claim that God favors them for an unknown reason can only point us to their good works as evidence that they and they alone have been so chosen of God. Ask any Calvinist here to produce a promise from God that they have a personal election. They cannot do it.

Theirs is a works religion steeped in pride. They are willing to show up at the judgment to present to God their own lifestyle as evidence of a conversion. Those of us who have a promise from God are fully confident that we are saved because God has promised that whosoever will let him come and take of the water of life freely. Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. We have done that and our confidence is in these promises and not in some election process that is a figment of a wayward religion. We are sure that all people can be saved because God said it. He knows whom he will save. He knows he will save anyone who will believe. This refutes Calvinism.

Right on! The first predestinationist were the Pharisees. Do you see a resembalance? They also thought that they were God's choosen people. Jesus called them snakes.

 

[cygnusx1]

Just because you say so, eh?

In reality, what you have described as "Calvinism", bears absolutely no resemblance to the real thing. If you think that what you have said is what Calvinism is, you are willfully blind, ignorant, and lacking in basic reading comprehension and language skills. What you are describing is NOT Calvinism, in any way shape or form. You sir, are making a show of knocking down a straw man that you yourself created. As such, it is nothing but show, smoke, and mirrors, and a deception you are trying to pull off, to hide the paucity, bankruptcy and outright unscriptural nature of your own beliefs.

Calvinism refuted? Hardly!

a clear sight of retreat is when a poster resorts to rediculous desperate mudslinging , anyone knows Calvinists don't place any store on salvation by personal works , but hey if the cap fits , the slinger should wear it .

he's on the run bro , the only question is should we show no quarter

 

[chestertonrules]

I tell people that they are sinners and need to repent and accept the gift of God for salvation. If they are elect, they believe. (The work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Not my words.) If they are the non-elect, they won't. The same sun that hardens the clay melts the ice.

What if they are elect and you don't tell them anything?

Clearly, from a Calvinist perspective, evangelization is optional, UNLESS you think that your actions will impact God's choice.

 

[cygnusx1]

What if they are elect and you don't tell them anything?

Clearly, from a Calvinist perspective, evangelization is optional, UNLESS you think that your actions will impact God's choice.

oh no !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

not another one who doesn't understand the use of means ... that's 20 this month!

let me illustrate , if the Docs said you had a week to live , you prayed and the Lord in a dream said He would heal you , that you would have a further 15 years life on this earth , would it matter to that infallible prediction or to you whether you ate another meal or had another drink .......we are not fatalists...

 

[chestertonrules]

your last line tells me where your at .... confrontational , cockey and beyond being reasoned with , ie , in the flesh.

Paul was right "knowledge puffs up" !

honey or vinegar >

I think Paul was describing Mr. Calvin.

The bible is clear.

Calvin is not.

 

[chestertonrules]

oh no !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

not another one who doesn't understand the use of means ... that's 20 this month!

let me illustrate , if the Docs said you had a week to live , you prayed and the Lord in a dream said He would heal you , that you would have a further 15 years life on this earth , would it matter to that infallible prediction or to you whether you ate another meal or had another drink .......we are not fatalists...

The bottom line, which Calvinists don't want to confront, is that your actions are 100% irrelevant to your salvation or the salvation of anyone else, ACCORDING TO your dogma.

I understand why you don't like this to be pointed out. It exposes you in an embarrassing way.

 

[cygnusx1]

I think Paul was describing Mr. Calvin.

The bible is clear.

Calvin is not.

that is such a rash statement , any old port hey

 

[chestertonrules]

that is such a rash statement , any old port hey

Not as rash as TULIP!

 

[cygnusx1]

The bottom line, which Calvinists don't want to confront, is that your actions are 100% irrelevant to your salvation or the salvation of anyone else, ACCORDING TO your dogma.

I understand why you don't like this to be pointed out. It exposes you in an embarrassing way.

I see you ignored my post , are you unclear what it meant , do you need more illustrations , the use of means is imperative to the outcome . Predestination is not willy nilly it is inclusive of means ...... USE of MEANS , say that a dozen times


and do cease from slinging mud , it's most unbecoming of a humble christian saved by grace!

 

[chestertonrules]

I see you ignored my post , are you unclear what it meant , do you need more illustrations , the use of means is imperative to the outcome . Predestination is not willy nilly it is inclusive of means ...... USE of MEANS , say that a dozen times


and do cease from slinging mud , it's most unbecoming of a humble christian saved by grace!

I'm expressing my opinion, I am not slinging mud. My opinion is that you have been duped and fallen for a false doctrine. Pointing this out is not slinging mud. I am either right or wrong. If I am right, then you should welcome my input. If I am wrong, then you should be able to convince me.

Please explain why you feel entitled to ignore these bible verses:


Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

Matt 7 21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

1 Peter 1 17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

 

[Hammster]

The bottom line, which Calvinists don't want to confront, is that your actions are 100% irrelevant to your salvation or the salvation of anyone else, ACCORDING TO your dogma.



I understand why you don't like this to be pointed out. It exposes you in an embarrassing way.

My actions are irrelevant to MY salvation. the ARE relevant to the salvation of others.