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Calvinism Refuted

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&Abel

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I don't find this funny; charismatics and those who deny that special revelation is closed clearly deny sola scriptura. Your saying you know something simply "because his Spirit continuously reaffirms this within myself" and not because Scripture says so, coupled with the fact that you constantly quote from the pseudepigrapha shows your denial of reformation principles, specifically, the supreme authority of the Scriptures.

one of the books I quote often is QUOTED in the new testament(the book of enoch)

the other(2 esdras) was cited as scripture by the ECF and theres a probably reference of something Jesus said directly linked to it

Clement is a fairly well known ECF who was under either Peter or Paul and whos Epistle was once a part of the eastern canon
 
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drstevej

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"I'll just use a bunch of smart sounding words so it seems like I know what I'm talking about"

OK I'm guessing the source was Arminius.
 
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&Abel

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and this is not just based on a gut feeling I have provided PLENTY of scripture(as well as others)

can we get some more opinions on this specifically?

1 Timothy 2

A Call to Prayer

1First of all, then, I urge that (A)entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2(B)for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of (C)God our Savior,
4(D)who desires all men to be (E)saved and to (F)come to the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is (G)one God, and (H)one mediator also between God and men, the (I)man Christ Jesus,
6who (J)gave Himself as a ransom for all, the (K)testimony given at (L)the proper time.
 
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willowtrees

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remember that Gods primary will is for that vessel who is destined for wrath to have the ability to freely choose

so this is not contrary to His primary goal and purpose

and His purpose is to perfect us in the midst of rebellion

God being perfection was able to turn even imperfection into perfection
You are incorrect.


Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

God made some of us for honorable use and some for dishonorable use.
He made us that way, we don't choose which one we are because he has all rights over us.

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

The vessels of wrath are prepared for destruction. Prepared by who? By God to show his wrath and make know his power.

iow God made them that way to begin with because he desired to.

Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--

This is why.
He prepared the vessels of mercy, those called and chosen beforehand.

Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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one of the books I quote often is QUOTED in the new testament(the book of enoch)

the other(2 esdras) was cited as scripture by the ECF and theres a probably reference of something Jesus said directly linked to it

Clement is a fairly well known ECF who was under either Peter or Paul and whos Epistle was once a part of the eastern canon

You use it like scripture interchangeably; Clement and the book of Enoch are not Scripture. 2 Esdras in Apocryphal. So if you want to get through to us reformers then stop quoting them and stick to the homolegomena.
 
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&Abel

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speaking of 2 esdras

lets go to it shall we:

[45] No, O Lord who art over us! But spare thy people and have mercy on thy inheritance, for thou hast mercy on thy own creation."
[46] He answered me and said, "Things that are present are for those who live now, and things that are future are for those who will live hereafter.
[47] For you come far short of being able to love my creation more than I love it. But you have often compared yourself to the unrighteous. Never do so!
[48] But even in this respect you will be praiseworthy before the Most High,
[49] because you have humbled yourself, as is becoming for you, and have not deemed yourself to be among the righteous in order to receive the greatest glory.
[50] For many miseries will affect those who inhabit the world in the last times, because they have walked in great pride.
[51] But think of your own case, and inquire concerning the glory of those who are like yourself,
[52] because it is for you that paradise is opened, the tree of life is planted, the age to come is prepared, plenty is provided, a city is built, rest is appointed, goodness is established and wisdom perfected beforehand.
[53] The root of evil is sealed up from you, illness is banished from you, and death is hidden; hell has fled and corruption has been forgotten;
[54] sorrows have passed away, and in the end the treasure of immortality is made manifest.
[55] Therefore do not ask any more questions about the multitude of those who perish.
[56] For they also received freedom , but they despised the Most High, and were contemptuous of his law, and forsook his ways.
[57] Moreover they have even trampled upon his righteous ones,
[58] and said in their hearts that there is not God -- though knowing full well that they must die.
[59] For just as the things which I have predicted await you, so the thirst and torment which are prepared await them. For the Most High did not intend that men should be destroyed;
[60] but they themselves who were created have defiled the name of him who made them, and have been ungrateful to him who prepared life for them.
[61] Therefore my judgment is now drawing near;
[62] I have not shown this to all men, but only to you and a few like you." Then I answered and said,
[63] "Behold, O Lord, thou hast now shown me a multitude of the signs which thou wilt do in the last times, but thou hast not shown me when thou wilt do them." 9

[1] He answered me and said, "Measure carefully in your mind, and when you see that a certain part of the predicted signs are past,
[2] then you will know that it is the very time when the Most High is about to visit the world which he has made.
[3] So when there shall appear in the world earthquakes, tumult of peoples, intrigues of nations, wavering of leaders, confusion of princes,
[4] then you will know that it was of these that the Most High spoke from the days that were of old, from the beginning.
[5] For just as with everything that has occurred in the world, the beginning is evident, and the end manifest;
[6] so also are the times of the Most High: the beginnings are manifest in wonders and mighty works, and the end in requital and in signs.
[7] And it shall be that every one who will be saved and will be able to escape on account of his works, or on account of the faith by which he has believed,
[8] will survive the dangers that have been predicted, and will see my salvation in my land and within my borders, which I have sanctified for myself from the beginning.
[9] Then those who have now abused my ways shall be amazed, and those who have rejected them with contempt shall dwell in torments.
[10] For as many as did not acknowledge me in their lifetime, although they received my benefits,
[11] and as many as scorned my law while they still had freedom, and did not understand but despised it while an opportunity of repentance was still open to them,
[12] these must in torment acknowledge it after death.
[13] Therefore, do not continue to be curious as to how the ungodly will be punished; but inquire how the righteous will be saved, those to whom the age belongs and for whose sake the age was made."

[74] "Hear, my elect," says the Lord. "Behold, the days of tribulation are at hand, and I will deliver you from them.
[75] Do not fear or doubt, for God is your guide.
[76] You who keep my commandments and precepts," says the Lord God, "do not let your sins pull you down, or your iniquities prevail over you."
[77] Woe to those who are choked by their sins and overwhelmed by their iniquities, as a field is choked with underbrush and its path overwhelmed with thorns, so that no one can pass through!
[78] It is shut off and given up to be consumed by fire.

2 Esdras, 4 Ezra
 
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nobdysfool

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2 esdras and the book of enoch are both canonical in the Ethiopian church

But neither you or I, or anyone else here is Ethiopian, or a member of that church. And even then that doesn't automatically confer canonical status. The bottom line is, you are relying on extra-biblical "scriptures", and citing them as if they were inspired scripture, which they are not.
 
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&Abel

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You use it like scripture interchangeably; Clement and the book of Enoch are not Scripture. 2 Esdras in Apocryphal. So if you want to get through to us reformers then stop quoting them and stick to the homolegomena.

so you believe a book that is not scripture is quoted in the new testament then?

Jude 1

12These are the men who are hidden reefs (AM)in your love feasts when they feast with you (AN)without fear, caring for themselves; (AO)clouds without water, (AP)carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, (AQ)uprooted;
13(AR)wild waves of the sea, casting up (AS)their own shame like foam; wandering stars, (AT)for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
14It was also about these men that (AU)Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "(AV)Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15(AW)to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which (AX)ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
16These are (AY)grumblers, finding fault, (AZ)following after their own lusts; they speak (BA)arrogantly, flattering people (BB)for the sake of gaining an advantage.





The Book of Enoch

The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2
living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said --Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is 3
for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them: The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling,
4
And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai,
[And appear from His camp]
And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens. 5
And all shall be smitten with fear
And the Watchers shall quake,
And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth. 6
And the high mountains shall be shaken,
And the high hills shall be made low,
And shall melt like wax before the flame. 7
And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder,
And all that is upon the earth shall perish,
And there shall be a judgement upon all (men). 8
But with the righteous He will make peace,
And will protect the elect,
And mercy shall be upon them. And they shall all belong to God,
And they shall be prospered,
And they shall all be blessed.
And He will help them all,
And light shall appear unto them,
And He will make peace with them.

9
And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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so you believe a book that is not scripture is quoted in the new testament then?

Jude 1

12These are the men who are hidden reefs (AM)in your love feasts when they feast with you (AN)without fear, caring for themselves; (AO)clouds without water, (AP)carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, (AQ)uprooted;
13(AR)wild waves of the sea, casting up (AS)their own shame like foam; wandering stars, (AT)for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
14It was also about these men that (AU)Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "(AV)Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15(AW)to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which (AX)ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
16These are (AY)grumblers, finding fault, (AZ)following after their own lusts; they speak (BA)arrogantly, flattering people (BB)for the sake of gaining an advantage.





The Book of Enoch

The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2
living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said --Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is 3
for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them: The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling,
4
And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai,
[And appear from His camp]
And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens. 5
And all shall be smitten with fear
And the Watchers shall quake,
And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth. 6
And the high mountains shall be shaken,
And the high hills shall be made low,
And shall melt like wax before the flame. 7
And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder,
And all that is upon the earth shall perish,
And there shall be a judgement upon all (men). 8
But with the righteous He will make peace,
And will protect the elect,
And mercy shall be upon them. And they shall all belong to God,
And they shall be prospered,
And they shall all be blessed.
And He will help them all,
And light shall appear unto them,
And He will make peace with them.

9
And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

Lol the book of Jude is inspired. However, the book of Jude is not the book of Enoch. Jude quotes Enoch; that doesn't make the whole book of Enoch inspired Scripture. By your same logic, Paul quotes Epimenides in Titus 1:12, and yet you aren't quoting him. He also clearly portrays writings of Aratus and Cleanthes in Acts 17:28. Does that make these works the inspired Scripture? No.

Why don't you go get yourself a book on the canon. A pretty basic one is "From God to Us" by Norman Geisler.
 
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&Abel

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Lol the book of Jude is inspired. However, the book of Jude is not the book of Enoch. Jude quotes Enoch; that doesn't make the whole book of Enoch inspired Scripture. By your same logic, Paul quotes Epimenides in Titus 1:12, and yet you aren't quoting him. He also clearly portrays writings of Aratus and Cleanthes in Acts 17:28. Does that make these works the inspired Scripture? No.

Why don't you go get yourself a book on the canon. A pretty basic one is "From God to Us" by Norman Geisler.

show me this quote of Pauls

you actually think God is in the habit of quoting words that are not His own? please...or "partially inspired" as you have implied

thats even worse
 
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nobdysfool

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show me this quote of Pauls

you actually think God is in the habit of quoting words that are not His own? please...or "partially inspired" as you have implied

thats even worse

He was quite plain in what he said. Apparently you don't understand plain words too well, given your misrepresentation of what he said.
 
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