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Calvinism Refuted

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nobdysfool

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this is, in actuality the only recourse of the Calvinist

you should have noticed I almost always post large chunks to scripture to capture the context as best as possible

All well and good,. except you do not break it down and expound on the scriptures you quote, to show HOW they say what you think they do.

We do.

(and as a side note, the extra-scriptural, pseudo-scriptural quotes from non-canonical writings do not count, and cannot be used for instruction in doctrine, or reproof. They are not inspired scripture, and carry no spiritual authority whatsoever.)
 
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drstevej

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32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things***{except faith}?
33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.


*** Arminian insertion


===


I need some Rhetoric and long posts to help me see this does not mean what it says!



"Depends on what you mean by 'ALL.'" Nah, the Calvinists would never let us get away with that.


Maybe the "I will be back later" is the better approach.
 
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the particular baptist

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This verse was discussed on another thread recently. The Greek places 'believed,' aorist, first and states that they were being set in place (perfect participle) for eternal life. The perfect tense is continuing action. This appears to be consistent with Jn. 3:16, as many as believe in Jesus would not perish . . . It also appears to be consistent with jn. 6, where Jesus says that as many as listen to the Father and learn from Him come to Jesus.

I think it says exactly what it says (regarding Acts 13:48). As many as were appointed to Life, believed. We know this because not all believed. They did not appoint themselves either.

But you dont have to take my word for it.

The Lord Jesus Christ said;

John 10:14-16

I am the good shepherd.

I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father;

and I lay down my life for the sheep.
(***Limited Atonement***)

And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice.
(***There is no option here, they will listen***)

So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
 
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&Abel

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All well and good,. except you do not break it down and expound on the scriptures you quote, to show HOW they say what you think they do.

We do.

(and as a side note, the extra-scriptural, pseudo-scriptural quotes from non-canonical writings do not count, and cannot be used for instruction in doctrine, or reproof. They are not inspired scripture, and carry no spiritual authority whatsoever.)

highlighting is enough

if you can't get it from a highlight and simple explanation expounding is nothing but a waste of time
 
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&Abel

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1 Timothy 2

1First of all, then, I urge that (A)entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2(B)for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of (C)God our Savior,
4(D)who desires all men to be (E)saved and to (F)come to the knowledge of the truth.



don't dodge...lets get the Calvinist take on this verse
 
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cygnusx1

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Originally Posted by cygnusx1
why do the none Calvinists ignore the first part of this text ?

John 6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.



This verse has been reviewed and discussed in quite some depth very recently on another thread, in fact on more than one thread. The first part of the verse presents no difficulty for those whose orientation is not Calvinist. ........

:mmh:


how is that ?

why the difficulty coming to Christ ?

what possible reason beyond mans TD can be given for the impossibility of coming to Christ unless God uses power ?

where does that leave the none Calvinists "free-will" defense argument ?
 
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cygnusx1

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1 Timothy 2

1First of all, then, I urge that (A)entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2(B)for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of (C)God our Savior,
4(D)who desires all men to be (E)saved and to (F)come to the knowledge of the truth.



don't dodge...lets get the Calvinist take on this verse

God's desire is not that all men shall be saved ; numerous scriptures show God desires to destroy men , not only desiring it but DOING it ! Now unless you can explain how it is that God destroys men without desiring to destroy them then one may only assume you haven't thought about this in any depth ........

what does the text mean ?

it means that God's desire to save "all men" is through the knowledge of the truth ........ ie. God desire to save men is through the use of means , He will have all men saved BY THE TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL .
 
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the particular baptist

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1 Timothy 2

1First of all, then, I urge that (A)entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2(B)for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of (C)God our Savior,
4(D)who desires all men to be (E)saved and to (F)come to the knowledge of the truth.



don't dodge...lets get the Calvinist take on this verse



John Gill really helps here from his commentary on 1 Tim 2:4

wherefore the will of God, that all men should be saved, is not a conditional will, or what depends on the will of man, or on anything to be performed by him, for then none might be saved; and if any should, it would be of him that willeth, contrary to the express words of Scripture;

but it is an absolute and unconditional will respecting their salvation, and which infallibly secures it: nor is it such a will as is distinguishable into antecedent and consequent; with the former of which it is said, God wills the salvation of all men, as they are his creatures, and the work of his hands; and with the latter he wills, or not wills it, according to their future conduct and behaviour;

but the will of God concerning man's salvation is entirely one, invariable, unalterable, and unchangeable:

nor is it merely his will of approbation or complacency, which expresses only what would be grateful and well pleasing, should it be, and which is not always fulfilled;

but it is his ordaining, purposing, and determining will, which is never resisted, so as to be frustrated, but is always accomplished: the will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men;

it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God;

for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will?

but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment: rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1Ti_2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners;

and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world, the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones.
 
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&Abel

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God's desire is not that all men shall be saved ; numerous scriptures show God desires to destroy men , not only desiring it but DOING it ! Now unless you can explain how it is that God destroys men without desiring to destroy them then one may only assume you haven't thought about this in any depth ........

what does the text mean ?

it means that God's desire to save "all men" is through the knowledge of the truth ........ ie. God desire to save men is through the use of means , He will have all men saved BY THE TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL .

A+ on the dancing, very graceful

but seriously,

HUH?
 
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the particular baptist

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could you summarize

I really have no clue what hes trying to say

Sure, i went back and underlined the meat of his take on the verse. He lived 1697-1771 and spoke the kings english after all :)

I really appreciate what the man that replaced him in the pulpit of the Tabernacle, Spurgeon, said regarding lost people;

Oh, my brothers and sisters in Christ, if sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies; and if they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them to stay, and not madly to destroy themselves. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go there unwarned and unprayed for.
 
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&Abel

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it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God

hes blatantly denying what the scripture says here and nothing more, based on his preconceived notions

God does indeed have 2 wills

his primary will was a being that was free

his secondary will is for that being to allow him to save it
 
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&Abel

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Satan's will is for us to disobey God, ignore his words and burn for eternity next to Him

Satan is aggressive and forceful in His will(consider how difficult it is to resist temptations)

God is gentle and loving in His will but will not force Himself as Satan

you do realize that all punishment dished out by God is due to Satan manipulating us into deserving that punishment right? you don't believe God sets us up to be chastised do you?
 
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the particular baptist

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it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God

hes blatantly denying what the scripture says here and nothing more, based on his preconceived notions

God does indeed have 2 wills

his primary will was a being that was free

his secondary will is for that being to allow him to save it



Yes, God's ordained will, in our minds, may not always match His revealed will.


Read this carefully, this is what Gill is explaining;



Rom 9:22-24

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles





 
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