Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell

[Walter2013]

Jesus promoted a works salvation. I guess you think He didn't understand the gospel either.

Paul's gospel promoted salvation without works, not the gospel Jesus preached.

Paul's gospel taught justification by faith. You don't seem to understand the difference between justification and regeneration.

 

[Walter2013]

How is that different from what you believe? Don't you believe that you have to do things to be saved?

Yes. You have to believe to be saved. You also believe that.

 

[Hammster]

Yes. You have to believe to be saved. You also believe that.

What must you do to stay saved?

 

[Walter2013]

What must you do to stay saved?

Believe.

 

[RisingSpirit]

Regeneration simply and only cures blindness.
It must never be confused with conversion.

Regeneration is contentless.

Regeneration doesn't save us. It is a precursor
to salvation.

Even makes salvation possible, as the blind/deaf/
hard-of-heart can't see/hear/accept the Gospel.

But nobody is saved by regeneration. They're
saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ
alone hearing the Gospel alone.

Regeneration only allows them to hear that Gospel.​

 

[RisingSpirit]

Believe.

Christians disavow any formula whereby people
are saved by grace, then lose that salvation by
their own lack of works !


Our position ...the Scriptural position... being
that the work of Jesus Christ redeems people.

We ain't saved -in any part- by our own works.

And we don't stay saved -in any part- by our
own works.

Redemption is 100% the work of Jesus Christ
from beginning to end !


As for Philippians 2:12...

"work out your own salvation with fear and
trembling" (KJV).

We are not to take the liberty of exegeting this
verse in isolation from other parts of the Bible,
like Romans 6:23 ("The free gift of God is
eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" NASB).

As a "free gift", there's no work we do to get
it and no work we do to keep it.

What kind of "free gift" would it be if we had
to pay for it ?


Look at the very next verse (v. 13)...

"for it is God who is at work in you" (NASB).

So the "fear and trembling" is our awe at
God working in us !

Paul in Philippians 2:12 tells us to reverence
and be awe-struck at what the Lord does in
our lives.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Hey! A condescending response. Not at all surprised. I expected that from you.

Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. (Matthew 16:24-25 ESV)

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matthew 7:13-14 ESV)

And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. (Luke 13:23-24 ESV)

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:21-23 ESV)

It seems your words are the exact opposite of what Jesus says. Again. What you fail to understand in your "works salvation" accusation against John MacArthur is that all the things he (and the Bible) mentions are evidences of regeneration. We don't do good works to be saved. We do good works because we ARE saved and have regenerate hearts. Good works are a product of regeneration, not the cause of regeneration. Therefore, your "works salvation" charge is nonsense. I suspect you'll continue refusing to see this distinction so you can continue your anti-obedience, anti-Lordship, you can become a non-believing believer and hate Jesus all the way to heaven crusade.

Wow Griff, I thought you had it, but then your last paragraph reverted back to man's doctrine.

You are saying you are regenerated (a new life) the easy way, that is, nothing on your part. However Jesus said the way that leads to life is hard. How is the way that leads to life hard by your definition of regeneration?

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy (regeneration without cooperation from man) that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matthew 7:13-14 ESV)

 

[FreeGrace2]

Freegrace2ism provides those in hell with an excuse.

They can say "God didn't save me!!!"

Therefore, they have an excuse.

Why are you running AWAY from the centerpiece of your limitation theology, Skala? What's that about?

Isn't your limited view of election and the atonement the centerpiece?

You guys really crack me up.

 

[guuila]

Wow Griff, I thought you had it, but then your last paragraph reverted back to man's doctrine.

You are saying you are regenerated (a new life) the easy way, that is, nothing on your part. However Jesus said the way that leads to life is hard. How is the way that leads to life hard by your definition of regeneration?

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy (regeneration without cooperation from man) that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matthew 7:13-14 ESV)

Cool story bro. You obviously have no clue what the difference between justification and regeneration is. But hey. Good on ya for giving it a go.

 

[FreeGrace2]

One needs to view this from the other side, imo. Not that there are people in hell with an excuse, but that there are people in heaven who had no excuse.

Why should one? What's wrong with the view that I have provided? Is it not accurate about Calvinism?

People in heaven are there because God did not dispense justice upon them, as He did with those in hell.

Right. He CHOSE them, and not the others, giving the others that excuse.

We all deserve hell, but because of God's mercy, some are in heaven.

ONLY because He ONLY chose some.

Your argument is not with Calvinism but with God.

Actually, I'm not arguing about anything. I have challenged Calvinism with a charge, and so far, no one has been able to refute my charge. They just ignore and distance themselves from the centerpiece of Calvinism, which is your view of election and atonement. And it DOES provide an excuse.

The good thing is, if you are genuinely concerned it is because the Holy Spirit is working on you to also accept Christ's payment for your sin.

I have done that decades ago. But thanks for your concern.

[QUOT4E]So now it is your choice, and if you should refuse then you will be in hell with NO excuse. I hope you choose God's Love. [/QUOTE]
Why in the world do you think I'm not a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ? Just because I'm not a Calvinist?

Haven't you read any of this thread before you jumped in with your opinions?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. (Matthew 16:24-25 ESV)

This is about discipleship, not about getting saved. It takes a bit of discernment to know the difference.

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matthew 7:13-14 ESV)

The narrow gate is the gate of faith. What do you think it is?

And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. (Luke 13:23-24 ESV)

See?

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:21-23 ESV)

The will of the Father is clearly stated in Jn 6:40.

It seems your words are the exact opposite of what Jesus says.

Not at all. You just don't understand the difference between being a disciple and getting saved.

Again. What you fail to understand in your "works salvation" accusation against John MacArthur is that all the things he (and the Bible) mentions are evidences of regeneration.

Slick try. What he said was very clear: it takes hard work to enter the kingdom. I quoted him directly. He teaches a works salvation but denies that he does.

We don't do good works to be saved.

Tell that to Mac. He needs to hear it.

We do good works because we ARE saved and have regenerate hearts.

Apparently you aren't understanding anything I quoted from him. Go back and try again.

Good works are a product of regeneration, not the cause of regeneration. Therefore, your "works salvation" charge is nonsense.

It is legit, but your comprehension is very poor.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Regeneration simply and only cures blindness.
It must never be confused with conversion.

Regeneration is contentless.

Regeneration doesn't save us. It is a precursor
to salvation.

Even makes salvation possible, as the blind/deaf/
hard-of-heart can't see/hear/accept the Gospel.

But nobody is saved by regeneration. They're
saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ
alone hearing the Gospel alone.

Regeneration only allows them to hear that Gospel.​

Can you prove any of this with Scripture that actually SAYS what you CLAIM here?

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

This is a completely nonsensical response. Where does Paul lie, or admit to lying?

I thought you knew everything Paul wrote.

But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner? (Romans 3:7)

Paul's lie:
Ephesians 4:8 Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.”

David's truth:
Psalm 68:18
You have ascended on high, You have led captivity captive; You have received gifts among men, even from the rebellious,

Nowhere. And Peter calls Paul's letters SCRIPTURE. Please point to where White or Sproul wrote holy scripture. You've tried to dodge but it isn't going to work.

Ketuvim, the name of the third section of the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible),means simply "Writings", which hardly does justice to the variety of religious expression found there.
There is poetry--of Temple ritual, private prayer, wisdom, national tragedy, even love. There is philosophical exploration--of the wisest path in life, of God's goodness and justice. There are historical retellings and short stories. Ketuvim might better be translated as "the anthology," the canonical collection from the post-prophetic age.

Most of the individual books in Ketuvim were written or at least put in final form in Judea during the period of Persian and Hellenistic rule, from the fifth through the second centuries BCE. The Temple in Jerusalem, destroyed in the Babylonian conquest of 586, had been rebuilt around 515. The text of the Torah was standardized not long after, but there was no more prophecy after Malachi. Clues of language, literary style, and content have led scholars to see most of Ketuvim as "Second Temple" works.

Unlike the Torah and the books of Prophets (Nevi'im), the works found in Ketuvim do not present themselves as the fruits of direct divine inspiration. (Daniel is the one exception.)

Ketuvim (Writings) - My Jewish Learning

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

We are justified by faith alone. Works are evidence of regeneration. Without works, there is no salvation. But that doesn't mean your works are the cause of your salvation. You still haven't explained to us why Jesus had to die. It's okay though. I understand. It's an assault on your self-righteous works you want to present to God. Too bad they're like a used tampon before a thrice holy God.

Here again, using man's doctrine, works are not the evidence of regeneration. If you would have looked up John the Baptist, or even Paul, as he got it right this time, you would see good works are evidence of genuine repentance.

Acts 26:20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

Luke 3:8
Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance...

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Yep. Works are evidence of a changed heart. Justified by faith. Works demonstrate that faith is genuine. Do you not understand the reformed position?

I had rather understand Jesus' position over man's.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Paul's gospel taught justification by faith. You don't seem to understand the difference between justification and regeneration.

Jesus taught justification through repentance.

Why would I not understand? Do I seem like a dunce to you?

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Cool story bro. You obviously have no clue what the difference between justification and regeneration is. But hey. Good on ya for giving it a go.

So, you think I am a dunce also?

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Cool story bro. You obviously have no clue what the difference between justification and regeneration is. But hey. Good on ya for giving it a go.

Then perhaps you can tell me which one is life - justification or regeneration?

Whichever one you choose, Jesus said the way that leads to life (I say regeneration) is hard, and few find it.

Also notice above, that Jesus said 'few find it'. Let me ask, how does one find something? Do they sit on their back side and let it come to them? Or, do they go out and seek it, hunt for it, search for it?

So, I ask, how does one find the way that leads to life? Honestly, can you tell me?

 

[Anoetos]

fg2,

I for one am happy to yield: the saints in heaven are there by grace. The wicked in hell are there immediately because they are sinners, but mediately because they were not given that grace; they were not chosen.

If this gives them an excuse, it is a very unhappy one. But then, I do not believe the reprobate knows or cares what his eternal destiny is, and even if he does, he assumes a happy result such that any excuse is necessarily of no value or use.

 

[nobdysfool]

Then I must ask, what was Paul's gospel?
Romans 2:16 - on the day when, according to my gospel,
Romans 16:25 - Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel
2 Timothy 2:8 -Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,

Once you find what Paul's gospel was, then please show me where Jesus and the disciples preached the same gospel.

Where do we find a warning not to deny the authority of scripture? I believe we are told to test a prophet's words to see if he speaks for God or for himself. Is Paul exempt, while every other prophet (genuine or fake) has been tried by this test.

It's not wise to take a man's word, especially if he speaks for God, with blind abandonment.



I'll give you one: Do not work for the food which perishes, but [work] for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal (John 6:27).



What you forget to add, nowhere does Jesus say faith without works will save you. In fact, James, who was with Jesus during His entire ministry made it clear to all who will hear, faith without works will not save you. Jesus' whole ministry was about faith, love, works, and obedience for salvation.

Why would one not want to heed the Savior's words, which are eternal life? Why would one want to trust their very soul to a man who admitted to lying and deception, without testing him?

Listen to these words of Jesus in Luke 13:
23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”And He said to them,
24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from"

Notice Jesus was asked about salvation (v.23). His reply was to strive (contend, labor fervently) to enter the narrow gate. Many will seek to enter and not be able. Why? They didn't strive to enter. They thought they could enter on some other easier, and more comfortable terms (faith alone with no works nor striving). But Jesus will say to them, "I DO NOT KNOW YOU, WHERE YOU ARE FROM"

Since Jesus is the Savior Himself, I think it would be wise to hear His words and heed them. Don't trust your soul to a man who disagrees with Jesus' words of life.

I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, and preached a gospel that differed in some ways from the Gospel that Jesus and the 12 preached to the Jews? Why? Because the Gentiles aren't Jews, and not obligated to keep the law of Moses, which was given ONLY to the Jews.

No, I'm sure you didn't consider that....Because Jesus and the 12 preached their gospel before Christ was rejected by the Jews, and Paul preached his Gospel to those who, because of the rejection by the Jews, were allowed to enter in.

Let me ask you something. Do you adhere to Replacement Theology?