Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell

[Ask Seek Knock]

I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, and preached a gospel that differed in some ways from the Gospel that Jesus and the 12 preached to the Jews?

No, that never occurred to me. Jesus said to preach the gospel (the one He preached) to every creature, which would include Jews and Gentiles.

The Truth Jesus taught was pure and unadulterated. By changing His Truth in any way, it becomes a lie, or at best, man's truth.

I thought God chose Peter to be the apostle to the Gentiles anyway.

Why? Because the Gentiles aren't Jews, and not obligated to keep the law of Moses, which was given ONLY to the Jews.

We aren't talking all 600+ laws of Moses. Jesus said all the law and prophets hung on two specific commandments. Care to guess what they are?

So, that excuse doesn't hold water, for Jew and Gentile is able to love God with all his heart and his neighbor as himself.

No, I'm sure you didn't consider that....Because Jesus and the 12 preached their gospel before Christ was rejected by the Jews, and Paul preached his Gospel to those who, because of the rejection by the Jews, were allowed to enter in.

I see you differentiate between Jesus' and Paul's gospels. Thank you for being honest in realizing they are not the same.

Paul could bolster his gospel to the Gentiles, for they knew very little, if any, of the Old Testament. He could pull passages out of context and they would never know. In fact, he could change the words of certain OT passages and get away with it on his unsuspecting subjects.

But today, we have much more at our disposable to test Paul and his gospel. He flat out lied when quoting David's passage in Psalms 68:18. But how were the early Gentiles to know if he was telling the truth or not?

Paul also said God's truth abounded to His glory through his lie. Then Paul boldly asked why he was judged as a sinner, even though he lies. Well, I wonder why!

God's truth has nothing to do with lying. God surely doesn't need anyone lying to promote His truth and glory. But, how did the Gentiles, he so eagerly, and I might add, desperately wanted to embrace his gospel, know any different than that he was lying? But today, we are able to test Paul against his lies.

So, I think it comes down to each one of us. Who will we believe, Jesus and His gospel of eternal truth, or Paul and his deceptive gospel?

Let me ask you something. Do you adhere to Replacement Theology?

No I do not. I also do not believe Paul's gospel replaced Jesus' gospel.

 

[Hammster]

Wow Griff, I thought you had it, but then your last paragraph reverted back to man's doctrine.

You are saying you are regenerated (a new life) the easy way, that is, nothing on your part. However Jesus said the way that leads to life is hard. How is the way that leads to life hard by your definition of regeneration?

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy (regeneration without cooperation from man) that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matthew 7:13-14 ESV)

Adding to Jesus' words? Really?

 

[Hammster]

Why are you running AWAY from the centerpiece of your limitation theology, Skala? What's that about?

Isn't your limited view of election and the atonement the centerpiece?

You guys really crack me up.

He must have really hit a nerve.

 

[FreeGrace2]

fg2,

I for one am happy to yield: the saints in heaven are there by grace. The wicked in hell are there immediately because they are sinners, but mediately because they were not given that grace; they were not chosen.

And I thank you, Anoetos, for being the very first Calvinist to step forward and acknowledge the truth, unlike your fellow campers, who have done everything except acknowledge the centerpiece of your theology.

If this gives them an excuse, it is a very unhappy one. But then, I do not believe the reprobate knows or cares what his eternal destiny is

Really? It should be rather clear that the moment one passes from this life to eternity, they will have a very good idea of where they are.

In fact, Jesus gave us a clear glimpse of eternity, pre-resurrection, of course, in the story of Lazarus and a rich man. The exchange between the rich man and Abraham cannot be regarded as a parable, as actual people were involved. And the rich man knew exactly WHY and WHERE he was. So much so, in fact, that he asked Abe to send Lazarus back to his 5 brothers, to warn them of the place that he was in. I'd say that's a real clear example that those in eternity both know and cares about their eternal destiny. Your comment suggests that the lost in hell won't know much. I seriously doubt that, given what Jesus told us.

and even if he does, he assumes a happy result such that any excuse is necessarily of no value or use.

This wasn't about any "value" or "benefit" of having an excuse. It was merely to point out that in Calvinism, the un-chosen will have one.

BUT, the Bible gives no one any excuse. Do you see the problem? Your theology provides an excuse, where the Bible doesn't.

You seem far more perceptive than the others, who have been distancing themselves from the centerpiece of their theology. Maybe you'll realize the problem of your theology giving those in hell an excuse for being there. The Bible doesn't do that.

However, I again thank you for stepping up and acknowledging the fact and affirming the OP.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He must have really hit a nerve.

In fact, the only nerves that have been hit are you and your pals, minus Anoetos. He's the only Calvinist yet to admit the OP. All the rest of you have done nothing but distance yourselves from the centerpiece of your theology, which I find extremely funny.

Another thing about "hitting anerve". It's quite clear just how much my posts have gotten under your skins. Seems to me y'all have taken this very personally. By challenging Calvinism and it's many errors, y'all have taken that as a personal attack on y'all. But it isn't. Not even close.

For me, this is just a discussion. I haven't attempted to persuade anyone. I have clearly explained how I understand Scripture and WHY your views are in error. But I don't take your comments personally. You may disagree, and that is fine. Doesn't matter. There has been lots of "give and take", sure, but there is quite a bit of animosity amongst the campers, and it's clear you guys don't take to criticism very well.

You guys have made some extremely judmental remarks about me that none of you have any idea of what is real and the truth. Not that it matters to you, though. Which is my point. Y'all just shoot off whatever you think of in order to try to diminish me and my view.

No doubt, some of y'all may use this post as an opportunity to charge me with "whining". Fine. Whatever you think (or not so much). This isn't a "whine party". I'm just telling y'all what I think. From the Calvinists I've dealt with in this forum, it appears to me that most of you are very thin skinned regarding your theology, as if "how DARE anyone challenge or criticize my theology!!"

Well, that's exactly what this subforum is about: debate and challenge. I had hoped that everyone who posts here would have on their big boy pants and debate in an adult manner. But coming in here with thin skin only muddies the waters and removes any manner of adult discussion.

I have repeatedly been charged with all kinds of stuff; lying, contradictions,etc. And I have asked each "charger" to provide evidence of their charge. And guess what...not one of them did that, including you. If any of those charges can be proven, it would seem quite easy to provide evidence. But no one did.

So, where's all the evidence of all the charges that have been thrown at me?

What is clear from the mountain of posts from your side is that my OP has most definitely hit a very raw nerve, and y'all just can't stand it, except honest Aneotos.

 

[Hammster]

In fact, the only nerves that have been hit are you and your pals, minus Anoetos. He's the only Calvinist yet to admit the OP. All the rest of you have done nothing but distance yourselves from the centerpiece of your theology, which I find extremely funny.

Another thing about "hitting anerve". It's quite clear just how much my posts have gotten under your skins. Seems to me y'all have taken this very personally. By challenging Calvinism and it's many errors, y'all have taken that as a personal attack on y'all. But it isn't. Not even close.

For me, this is just a discussion. I haven't attempted to persuade anyone. I have clearly explained how I understand Scripture and WHY your views are in error. But I don't take your comments personally. You may disagree, and that is fine. Doesn't matter. There has been lots of "give and take", sure, but there is quite a bit of animosity amongst the campers, and it's clear you guys don't take to criticism very well.

You guys have made some extremely judmental remarks about me that none of you have any idea of what is real and the truth. Not that it matters to you, though. Which is my point. Y'all just shoot off whatever you think of in order to try to diminish me and my view.

No doubt, some of y'all may use this post as an opportunity to charge me with "whining". Fine. Whatever you think (or not so much). This isn't a "whine party". I'm just telling y'all what I think. From the Calvinists I've dealt with in this forum, it appears to me that most of you are very thin skinned regarding your theology, as if "how DARE anyone challenge or criticize my theology!!"

Well, that's exactly what this subforum is about: debate and challenge. I had hoped that everyone who posts here would have on their big boy pants and debate in an adult manner. But coming in here with thin skin only muddies the waters and removes any manner of adult discussion.

I have repeatedly been charged with all kinds of stuff; lying, contradictions,etc. And I have asked each "charger" to provide evidence of their charge. And guess what...not one of them did that, including you. If any of those charges can be proven, it would seem quite easy to provide evidence. But no one did.

So, where's all the evidence of all the charges that have been thrown at me?

What is clear from the mountain of posts from your side is that my OP has most definitely hit a very raw nerve, and y'all just can't stand it, except honest Aneotos.

Based on this exceptionally long and misleading obfuscation, he must have hit a big nerve.

 

[guuila]

I guess this was overlooked... again. I understand why. FreeGrace2 is trying to teach us that people can hate Jesus and still go to heaven. Jesus told us if we deny him, he will deny us. John also told us no one who denies the Son has the Father. Weird that a person can deny the Son and not have the Father, yet still go to heaven according to FreeGrace2.

By the way, John 3:16 also says "whosoever believes" and not "whosoever believed". I'd leave this one now and concentrate on one of your other mistakes if I were you.

Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 10:31-33 ESV)

Funny that "whoever believes" in John 3:16 means a person has eternal life, but "whoever denies" in Matthew 10:33 has no meaning.

No one who denies the Son has the Father. (1 John 2:23 ESV)

Debate over.

 

[nobdysfool]

Nm

 

[guuila]

Verses of the day:

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness. (Romans 12:1-8 ESV)

We shouldn't think more highly of ourselves than we ought to think, but rather we need to think with sober judgment, each of us according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. Oh wow. God assigns faith. Weird.

 

[tulipbee]

... FreeGrace2 is trying to teach us that people can hate Jesus and still go to heaven..... .

All men hate Jesus and the Elects still go to Heaven, right?

 

[guuila]

All men hate Jesus and the Elects still go to Heaven, right?

The elect have their heart changed by sovereign grace so they are disarmed of their hostility toward Christ.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Adding to Jesus' words? Really?

Are you going to say something substantial, or just throw little remarks here and there?

Here, chew on this for a while and see if you can come up with truthful answers.

What is regeneration?
What do you consider to be 'new'?
Of what does the 'old' consist?
What is the heart?
What is the quality of an 'old' heart?
What is the quality of a 'new' heart?

Any of your friends may answer also. I really want to know what you guys believe. And oh, if you don't mind, please provide passages, where you are able, to support your answers above.

 

[guuila]

Any of your friends may answer also. I really want to know what you guys believe. And oh, if you don't mind, please provide passages, where you are able, to support your answers above.

We believe Paul. You don't. Therefore, no further discussion is necessary if we can't even agree on the source of truth. I've tried my best to get you to understand that, but some things are unlearnable I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJRklDvBBSE

 

[Hammster]

Are you going to say something substantial, or just throw little remarks here and there?

Here, chew on this for a while and see if you can come up with truthful answers.

What is regeneration?
What do you consider to be 'new'?
Of what does the 'old' consist?
What is the heart?
What is the quality of an 'old' heart?
What is the quality of a 'new' heart?

Any of your friends may answer also. I really want to know what you guys believe. And oh, if you don't mind, please provide passages, where you are able, to support your answers above.

What was the purpose of the cross?

 

[crimsonleaf]

Any of your friends may answer also. I really want to know what you guys believe. And oh, if you don't mind, please provide passages, where you are able, to support your answers above.

If you seriously don't know what we believe then why try to argue against it? You have no more interest in understanding us than I have in listening to you, someone who divides scripture and attempts to pit it against itself.

What sort of unorthodox theology do you follow which denies the truth of all scripture and sees the apostle Paul as the enemy of Christ's truth?

You're certainly not anyone who's opinion I would value in any sense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I guess this was overlooked... again. I understand why. FreeGrace2 is trying to teach us that people can hate Jesus and still go to heaven. Jesus told us if we deny him, he will deny us. John also told us no one who denies the Son has the Father. Weird that a person can deny the Son and not have the Father, yet still go to heaven according to FreeGrace2.



Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 10:31-33 ESV)

Funny that "whoever believes" in John 3:16 means a person has eternal life, but "whoever denies" in Matthew 10:33 has no meaning.

No one who denies the Son has the Father. (1 John 2:23 ESV)

Debate over.

So you think that God takes away one's eternal life if they cease to believe and become hateful about it. Wow. You're more Arminian than you know. FYI

 

[guuila]

So you think that God takes away one's eternal life if they cease to believe and become hateful about it. Wow. You're more Arminian than you know. FYI

Nope. They never had eternal life to begin with. Nice try though. Care to explain the verses I quoted?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You certainly have a high opinion of yourself, don't you?

No, you are wrong, and I thoroughly enjoy correcting the errors of Calvinists. Thanks for all the opportunities.

I've got better things to do with my time than waste it trying to teach the unteachable, and refute one who wouldn't admit he was refuted if his life depended on it.

You are dismissed.

What has been shown here is a pettiness and irrational need to cause strife and confusion, and be abusive to Calvinists, all because someone doesn't like the fact that Calvinists believe what they do.

Your histerical comments are beside the point. Show me "irrational", please. Can you do it? Don't throw out a charge if you can't back it up. That isn't very rational.

And "abusive" to Calvinists?? Reall?? You just proved my most recent post where I pointed out how thin skinned y'all are. So, my charges against Calvinism is seen by you as "abusive". Wow

As far as "excuses" go, hell-dwellers can have as many as they can invent.

Let's be clear; they don't have to invent any. Calvinism, if true, did all that for them.

If they are in hell they deserve to be there.

But all in heaven ALSO deserve to be in hell, so what's your point?

God doesn't make mistakes.

Oh, you mean that He made perfect choices for those in heaven? LOL LOL LOL How arrogant of you to even suggest such a thing!

Does the idea of an "excuse" bother me? Not one little bit.

Yeah, tell me about it. LOL

Liars gonna lie, haters gonna hate.

OK, show me ANY lie or hate that I've communicated here. I dare you to put your proof where your mouth is.

People in hell want ice water, and they're not gonna get it.

But they do get an excuse if Calvinism were true. Thank God it isn't true.

Whatever 'excuse" they think they have, it won't change a thing, it won't get them out. So it's a non-issue. A false alarm. And an exercise in futility, pettiness, and abusive behavior.

Actually, my charge has gotten WAY under your thin skin, huh. I suggest you read your posts before you post, just to make sure your emotions aren't so much "out there" for all to see.

It. Doesn't. Matter.

Truth always matters. Regardless of what you opine.

And no one's theology is perfect. Not even yours. We're all going to have our theology corrected when we get to the other side. some more than others, but no one's will be exempt.

I've never said otherwise.

This is actually more about attitude and civility than it is about theology.

Well, it's both. Just look at your own emotional posts. LOL

And civility is something that you could definitely benefit from learning.

Are you exempt?

Maybe a careful read of Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People" would be of great benefit to you.

I didn't come here trying to win friends. I came here to challenge your theology, and no one has refuted the OP. And Anoetos admitted to it.

The point was that you deal with your own issues first, before you try to correct someone else's issues. Something that you apparently haven't learned.

What is all this babble? I came here to debate, and I've challenged your theology, and all you can do is post all this "stuff". LOL

You've got more issues than National Geographic and Reader's Digest combined, and they seriously need to be organized and cataloged... I'm busy with my own issues (as Jesus said I should be).

Your extreme use of hyperbole reveals just how emotional you are. Yes, you do have issues, and serious ones at that. Hopefully, you'll get some help with them. I mean that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The elect have their heart changed by sovereign grace so they are disarmed of their hostility toward Christ.

Why do you think God uses such terms and phrases about the "family" and "Father" if not to show us the parallelism between spiritual and physical relationships?

So, why do you believe that in the spiritual realm that one of God's children can't rebel? The Bible warns against falling away, commands to "continue in the faith", and speaks of severe divine discipline for God children that do rebel.

Yet, you guys seem to deny all that. Why? Because of your theology that parallels puppeteering. You think God re-programs His children so they can't rebel. But the Bible refutes you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nope. They never had eternal life to begin with. Nice try though. Care to explain the verses I quoted?

The Bible SAYS that all who believe (aorist) HAVE eternal life. So your argument is with the Bible, not me.

And, please give me the verses you need help with again. Or the post # where you asked for the help. Thanks.