Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell

[SpyderByte]

How a normally intelligent person can be so consistently unable to accurately discern cause and effect is difficult to understand.

What? I don't get what yer sayin here...

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Actually what would be interesting is for you to answer my earlier post. Here it is again:

So when you claim Paul's words aren't inspired, do you think Peter is lying? 2Peter 3:15-16

Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Because if Peter is lying, then I guess he wasn't inspired either right? So you just threw out about half the new testament in your zeal to "debunk" calvinism.

See my earlier post.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7769235-78/#post64085355

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

You've successfully avoided answering this question every time it's been asked.

I knew this would be interesting. So Hammster, what did you find about Jesus' point of the cross? I would also like to find out what Jesus thought of the cross. Maybe you can help me here.

How long have you avoided my questions here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7768944-11/#post64079223

Don't accuse someone about something of which you are guilty.

 

[Hammster]

I knew this would be interesting. So Hammster, what did you find about Jesus' point of the cross? I would also like to find out what Jesus thought of the cross. Maybe you can help me here.

How long have you avoided my questions here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7768944-11/#post64079223

Don't accuse someone about something of which you are guilty.

You are still avoiding.

 

[drjean]

Calvinism believes that Christ died only for some, they call the "elect", and that is because God chose (elected) them for salvation. As such, all the elect receive the free gift of eternal life and will live with God for eternity.

This gives those in hell an excuse for being there; that Christ did not die for them. Calvinists say that they are there because of their sins. But that begs the question: Christ died for the sins of ONLY the elect, and therefore, go to heaven. The so-called non-elect, for whom Christ didn't die, pay for their sins by themselves.

And those who go to heaven still sinned, but Christ paid for their sins. They are in heaven BECAUSE Christ paid for their sins.

The only difference between sinner human beings in heaven and sinner human beings in hell is that Christ paid for the sins of those in heaven. Again, that provides an excuse for all in hell. No one paid for their sins.

It is possible for a Calvinist to provide a succinct explanation of how their theology of limited atonement and unconditional election does NOT provide any excuse for those in hell? Because I just don't see it.

Thanks.

One needs to view this from the other side, imo. Not that there are people in hell with an excuse, but that there are people in heaven who had no excuse.

People in heaven are there because God did not dispense justice upon them, as He did with those in hell. We all deserve hell, but because of God's mercy, some are in heaven. Romans 9:18 says: ( New American Standard Bible )
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Your argument is not with Calvinism but with God.

The good thing is, if you are genuinely concerned it is because the Holy Spirit is working on you to also accept Christ's payment for your sin. So now it is your choice, and if you should refuse then you will be in hell with NO excuse. I hope you choose God's Love.

 

[Skala]

I got a question, since I was seein elect and non-elect, and saved and not. Is it possible that the elect is the ones that God chose specifically, and the non-elect can still be saved? You know, God still knows they'll be saved, but he didn't choose them specific?

If non-elect are going to be saved, wouldn't they be known to God as elect to begin with? After all, election happened before the creation of the world. Everyone is already known by God as either elect or non-elect.

 

[Anoetos]

What? I don't get what yer sayin here...

That wasn't intended for you, friend.

 

[guuila]

Not at all surprised. I expected that from you.

Hey! A condescending response. Not at all surprised. I expected that from you.

Here is what I quoted:
On page 93, he said, "Salvation for sinners cost GBod is own Son it cost God's Son His life, and it'll cost you the same thing. Saslvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It (salvation) comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's (salvation) the fruit of actions, not intentions."

FYI, salvation does NOT "cost you the same thing". That is insane and blasphemous. That is works salvation. And salvation does NOT "come from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ", but from faith in Christ. Maybe you just can't see any difference there. But it's huge.

Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. (Matthew 16:24-25 ESV)

So, you seem to agree with getting into the kingdom (getting saved) "requires earnest endeavor, untiring energy, and UTMOST exertion", huh? Really? And you don't consider that to be a statement of working very hard to enter the kingdom?

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matthew 7:13-14 ESV)

And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. (Luke 13:23-24 ESV)

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:21-23 ESV)

It seems your words are the exact opposite of what Jesus says. Again. What you fail to understand in your "works salvation" accusation against John MacArthur is that all the things he (and the Bible) mentions are evidences of regeneration. We don't do good works to be saved. We do good works because we ARE saved and have regenerate hearts. Good works are a product of regeneration, not the cause of regeneration. Therefore, your "works salvation" charge is nonsense. I suspect you'll continue refusing to see this distinction so you can continue your anti-obedience, anti-Lordship, you can become a non-believing believer and hate Jesus all the way to heaven crusade.

 

[Metal Minister]

See my earlier post.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7769235-78/#post64085355

How can one's words be inspired when he admits to lying? How can one's words be inspired when he admits to deceiving people?

Peter speaking about Paul's letters is no different than if James White were speaking about R.C. Sproul's letters.

This is a completely nonsensical response. Where does Paul lie, or admit to lying? Nowhere. And Peter calls Paul's letters SCRIPTURE. Please point to where White or Sproul wrote holy scripture. You've tried to dodge but it isn't going to work.

 

[guuila]

I guess this was overlooked. I understand why. It instantly refutes FreeGrace2ism.

By the way, John 3:16 also says "whosoever believes" and not "whosoever believed". I'd leave this one now and concentrate on one of your other mistakes if I were you.

Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 10:31-33 ESV)

Funny that "whoever believes" in John 3:16 means a person has eternal life, but "whoever denies" in Matthew 10:33 has no meaning.

No one who denies the Son has the Father. (1 John 2:23 ESV)

Debate over.

 

[SpyderByte]

That wasn't intended for you, friend.

Oh gotcha. Wasn't sure! Lol!

 

[SpyderByte]

If non-elect are going to be saved, wouldn't they be known to God as elect to begin with? After all, election happened before the creation of the world. Everyone is already known by God as either elect or non-elect.

Well, no I was thinkin more like God had chosen the elect for a certain thing. Like the elects words would be what God used to save the rest of the people God knew would be saved. Like God said "Ok, I'm electing Skala cause through his ministry, all these other people will get saved too." So he uses his elect to bring everyone else to him. So for example, you're elect, but I'm not, but cause you told me about the gospel, I end up saved. Is what I'm sayin makin any sense or am I jus way off?

 

[Anoetos]

Well, no I was thinkin more like God had chosen the elect for a certain thing. Like the elects words would be what God used to save the rest of the people God knew would be saved. Like God said "Ok, I'm electing Skala cause through his ministry, all these other people will get saved too." So he uses his elect to bring everyone else to him. So for example, you're elect, but I'm not, but cause you told me about the gospel, I end up saved. Is what I'm sayin makin any sense or am I jus way off?

Check that against the Bible and you'll have your answer.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

You're way out of line, ASK. Paul and Jesus preached the same thing: God's plan of salvation for mankind. To claim otherwise is to deny the authority of Scripture. Not a wise thing to do.

Then I must ask, what was Paul's gospel?
Romans 2:16 - on the day when, according to my gospel,
Romans 16:25 - Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel
2 Timothy 2:8 -Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,

Once you find what Paul's gospel was, then please show me where Jesus and the disciples preached the same gospel.

Where do we find a warning not to deny the authority of scripture? I believe we are told to test a prophet's words to see if he speaks for God or for himself. Is Paul exempt, while every other prophet (genuine or fake) has been tried by this test.

It's not wise to take a man's word, especially if he speaks for God, with blind abandonment.

Just read through the gospel of John and count how many times Jesus spoke of faith plus works for salvation. Hint: None. Zero. Nada.

I'll give you one: Do not work for the food which perishes, but [work] for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal (John 6:27).

But, how many times did He speak of faith without anything else for salvation? Many times.

What you forget to add, nowhere does Jesus say faith without works will save you. In fact, James, who was with Jesus during His entire ministry made it clear to all who will hear, faith without works will not save you. Jesus' whole ministry was about faith, love, works, and obedience for salvation.

Why would one not want to heed the Savior's words, which are eternal life? Why would one want to trust their very soul to a man who admitted to lying and deception, without testing him?

Listen to these words of Jesus in Luke 13:
23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”And He said to them,
24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from"

Notice Jesus was asked about salvation (v.23). His reply was to strive (contend, labor fervently) to enter the narrow gate. Many will seek to enter and not be able. Why? They didn't strive to enter. They thought they could enter on some other easier, and more comfortable terms (faith alone with no works nor striving). But Jesus will say to them, "I DO NOT KNOW YOU, WHERE YOU ARE FROM"

Since Jesus is the Savior Himself, I think it would be wise to hear His words and heed them. Don't trust your soul to a man who disagrees with Jesus' words of life.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Both lies from the pit of hell.

Joh_3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh_3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Joh_3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Joh_5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Joh_6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

Joh_6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

Joh_7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'"

Joh_11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

Do you ever read ALL of Jesus' words, or just the ones which tickle your fancy?

 

[guuila]

From John MacArthur:

Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Eph. 2:1-5,8). Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Phil. 1:6; cf. Heb. 11). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that faith might not last and that a true Christian can completely cease believing.

Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Cor. 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Gal. 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Rom. 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matt. 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Eph. 2:10), and continue in the faith (Col. 1:21-23; Heb. 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.

Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Rom. 6:17-18; 10:9-10). In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture. In contrast, easy-believism teaches that submission to Christ's supreme authority is not germane to the saving transaction.

Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ (1 Pet. 1:8-9; Rom. 8:28-30; 1 Cor. 16:22). They will therefore long to obey Him (John 14:15, 23). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that Christians may fall into a state of lifelong carnality.

Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3). On the other hand, the person who remains utterly unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith (1 John 2:4). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that disobedience and prolonged sin are no reason to doubt the reality of one's faith.

Scripture teaches that genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Cor. 1:8). Those who later turn completely away from the Lord show that they were never truly born again (1 John 2:19). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that a true believer may utterly forsake Christ and come to the point of not believing.

Most Christians recognize that these nine distinctives are not new or radical ideas. The preponderance of Bible-believing Christians over the centuries have held these to be basic tenets of orthodoxy. In fact, no major orthodox movement in the history of Christianity has ever taught that sinners can spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior.

This issue is not a trivial one. In fact, how could any issue be more important? The gospel that is presented to unbelievers has eternal ramifications. If it is the true gospel, it can direct men and women into the everlasting kingdom. If it is a corrupted message, it can give unsaved people false hope while consigning them to eternal damnation. This is not merely a matter for theologians to discuss and debate and speculate about. This is an issue that every single pastor and lay person must understand in order that the gospel may be rightly proclaimed to all the nations.

So much for FreeGrace2ism...

 

[guuila]

Do you ever read ALL of Jesus' words, or just the ones which tickle your fancy?

Is this supposed to be some kind of rebuttal?

 

[guuila]

Then I must ask, what was Paul's gospel?
Romans 2:16 - on the day when, according to my gospel,
Romans 16:25 - Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel
2 Timothy 2:8 -Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,

Once you find what Paul's gospel was, then please show me where Jesus and the disciples preached the same gospel.

Where do we find a warning not to deny the authority of scripture? I believe we are told to test a prophet's words to see if he speaks for God or for himself. Is Paul exempt, while every other prophet (genuine or fake) has been tried by this test.

It's not wise to take a man's word, especially if he speaks for God, with blind abandonment.



I'll give you one: Do not work for the food which perishes, but [work] for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal (John 6:27).



What you forget to add, nowhere does Jesus say faith without works will save you. In fact, James, who was with Jesus during His entire ministry made it clear to all who will hear, faith without works will not save you. Jesus' whole ministry was about faith, love, works, and obedience for salvation.

Why would one not want to heed the Savior's words, which are eternal life? Why would one want to trust their very soul to a man who admitted to lying and deception, without testing him?

Listen to these words of Jesus in Luke 13:
23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”And He said to them,
24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from"

Notice Jesus was asked about salvation (v.23). His reply was to strive (contend, labor fervently) to enter the narrow gate. Many will seek to enter and not be able. Why? They didn't strive to enter. They thought they could enter on some other easier, and more comfortable terms (faith alone with no works nor striving). But Jesus will say to them, "I DO NOT KNOW YOU, WHERE YOU ARE FROM"

Since Jesus is the Savior Himself, I think it would be wise to hear His words and heed them. Don't trust your soul to a man who disagrees with Jesus' words of life.

We are justified by faith alone. Works are evidence of regeneration. Without works, there is no salvation. But that doesn't mean your works are the cause of your salvation. You still haven't explained to us why Jesus had to die. It's okay though. I understand. It's an assault on your self-righteous works you want to present to God. Too bad they're like a used tampon before a thrice holy God.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Both lies from the pit of hell.

Joh_3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

I don't think you read this verse very well. Who will not see life? It is those who DO NOT OBEY the Son. So tell me, does this not mean those who OBEY the Son will see life? Believing is obeying the Son. If one does not obey the Son, he does not believe in his heart, though 'belief' may flow from his lips like honey.

How true are the words of Jesus when He said:

7 You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me.
9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’ (Matthew 15)

For one to say he believes in Jesus, but do not obey His words is, as Jesus said, hypocrisy.

 

[guuila]

I don't think you read this verse very well. Who will not see life? It is those who DO NOT OBEY the Son. So tell me, does this not mean those who OBEY the Son will see life? Believing is obeying the Son. If one does not obey the Son, he does not believe in his heart, though 'belief' may flow from his lips like honey.

How true are the words of Jesus when He said:

7 You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me.
9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’ (Matthew 15)

For one to say he believes in Jesus, but do not obey His words is, as Jesus said, hypocrisy.

Yep. Works are evidence of a changed heart. Justified by faith. Works demonstrate that faith is genuine. Do you not understand the reformed position?