Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell

[tulipbee]

Here again, using man's doctrine, works are not the evidence of regeneration. ...

The main text for being "born again" (or "born from above" NRSV, ISV, NET, YLT, NJB; "born anew" WEB) is John 3:3. It reads "see". Not "alive" or "dead" ...but "see". You've got to be able to "see the kingdom" to convert to it ! Can't convert to something you cannot even see. This what regeneration does. All that regeneration does ! Unlike Calling (effectual or general), regeneration does NOT contain the Gospel or any other doctrine. It simply opens blind eyes and deaf ears. The person henceforth can "see the kingdom". Thus they can understand the Gospel when they hear it ...making Effectual Calling possible. Regeneration sometimes occurs in people milliseconds before Effectual Calling. Regeneration sometimes occurs in people decades before Effectual Calling.


The important thing being that it must occur PRIOR to the effectual call.

 

[tulipbee]

The elect have their heart changed by sovereign grace so they are disarmed of their hostility toward Christ.

So the chosen unregenrates hated Jesus before they were regenerated. right?

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

We believe Paul. You don't. Therefore, no further discussion is necessary if we can't even agree on the source of truth. I've tried my best to get you to understand that, but some things are unlearnable I guess.

Why would there be any disagreement on the source of Truth? I have plainly told you my source of Truth is Jesus only. Do we not agree on this?

What other source of truth is there?

Who is your source of truth?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

The main text for being "born again" (or "born from above" NRSV, ISV, NET, YLT, NJB; "born anew" WEB) is John 3:3. It reads "see". Not "alive" or "dead" ...but "see". You've got to be able to "see the kingdom" to convert to it ! Can't convert to something you cannot even see. This what regeneration does. All that regeneration does ! Unlike Calling (effectual or general), regeneration does NOT contain the Gospel or any other doctrine. It simply opens blind eyes and deaf ears. The person henceforth can "see the kingdom". Thus they can understand the Gospel when they hear it ...making Effectual Calling possible. Regeneration sometimes occurs in people milliseconds before Effectual Calling. Regeneration sometimes occurs in people decades before Effectual Calling.


The important thing being that it must occur PRIOR to the effectual call.

May also add that see in the context of those days was somewhat of an idiom for knowledge. ἰδεῖν can mean to physically see or to perceive. Along the same lines as βλέπω.

 

[Hammster]

Why would there be any disagreement on the source of Truth? I have plainly told you my source of Truth is Jesus only. Do we not agree on this?

What other source of truth is there?

Who is your source of truth?

Actually, your source of truth is what someone said that Jesus said.

 

[guuila]

The Bible SAYS that all who believe (aorist) HAVE eternal life. So your argument is with the Bible, not me.

And, please give me the verses you need help with again. Or the post # where you asked for the help. Thanks.

So you like to pit the Bible against itself. I wish you would've admitted that from the beginning. The verses in question were quoted in the post you responded to. Quit being lazy.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

If you seriously don't know what we believe then why try to argue against it? You have no more interest in understanding us than I have in listening to you, someone who divides scripture and attempts to pit it against itself.

I don't need to understand what you believe in order to know the truth Jesus gave us. Jesus' truth is the standard by which all truth is measured. You want Paul's truth to be that standard. You have it backwards.

The foundation on which your doctrines sit is Paul. Without Paul as your foundation, you would have no election before the foundation of the world (a major component of your beliefs), you would have no inherited sin from Adam (yet another major component), and you would no predestination (dare I say another major component of your beliefs). Or should I say, your beliefs would crumble, and that without any remedy.

So, I understand your unwillingness to test Paul and his writings. Doing this, you would undermine the very 'head' of your religion and beliefs. Even when Paul admits to lying and changes words from the Old Testament to promote his gospel, you still turn the other way, and pretend you don't see it. As they say, none is so blind as he who won't see.

What sort of unorthodox theology do you follow which denies the truth of all scripture and sees the apostle Paul as the enemy of Christ's truth?

When one seek's God and His truth, I find it strange some call it unorthodox. When Jesus presented His truth to the people, they thought His truth was unorthodox also.

You're certainly not anyone who's opinion I would value in any sense.

I certainly hope not. I am just a man like Paul, and as Paul should have said, I will tell you now, it is not my gospel nor my truth, don't base your beliefs on what I say, but rather, base them upon the words of Jesus alone.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Actually, your source of truth is what someone said that Jesus said.

And so I ask, what is your source of truth?

 

[guuila]

I don't need to understand what you believe in order to know the truth Jesus gave us. Jesus' truth is the standard by which all truth is measured. You want Paul's truth to be that standard. You have it backwards.

Actually, it's Jesus' truth according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Mere men. Just like Paul, the one you reject for being a mere man.

 

[Skala]

Actually, it's Jesus' truth according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Mere men. Just like Paul, the one you reject for being a mere man.

Good point. Ask Seek Knock is inconsistent because he puts all his trust in the "red letters" of the Bible and no trust in "men", but in actuality, Jesus himself didn't write those words, so he (Ask Seek Knock) has to rely on trusting the fact that mere men (John, Luke, etc) accurately recorded His words, or that they aren't just lying about what Jesus allegedly said.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Your histerical comments are beside the point. Show me "irrational", please. Can you do it? Don't throw out a charge if you can't back it up. That isn't very rational.

And "abusive" to Calvinists?? Reall?? You just proved my most recent post where I pointed out how thin skinned y'all are. So, my charges against Calvinism is seen by you as "abusive". Wow

It is irrational to say in one breath that a man is saved even if he subsequently disbelieves, then in the next breath deny saying anything like it, and finally to revert back to plan A again a few posts later. All there in black and white, making you look less skilled than your ego tells you you are.

Let's be clear; they don't have to invent any. Calvinism, if true, did all that for them.

That whole sentence is redundant. If Calvinism is true then I suspect you'll still be telling God he's wrong in the afterlife.

But all in heaven ALSO deserve to be in hell, so what's your point?

And you're the one claiming WE don't understand grace lol. Tell me, does God's grace extend to all, some or none? If all, you're a universalist, if some, welcome to the club, if none, then back to Unorthodox Theology for you...

Oh, you mean that He made perfect choices for those in heaven? LOL LOL LOL How arrogant of you to even suggest such a thing!

I'll assume that's sarcasm.

OK, show me ANY lie or hate that I've communicated here. I dare you to put your proof where your mouth is.

Throughout, your manner has been supercilious and unChristian. Pick any post, particularly the ones where you describe us as thin-skinned for taking offence at your flaming, goading behaviour. And congratulations on being the first adult I've ever come across to DARE anyone. Y'all.

But they do get an excuse if Calvinism were true. Thank God it isn't true.

You say they have an excuse under our theology, we say they have one under yours. I'll take your approach to debate - your theology has man in hell because he wasn't wise enough to accept the gift of eternal life. I'm right; you're wrong. Rinse and repeat for 900 posts.

Actually, my charge has gotten WAY under your thin skin, huh. I suggest you read your posts before you post, just to make sure your emotions aren't so much "out there" for all to see.

We're only human. We get as wound up over arguments with atheists and others who will argue that God sends the forgiven to Hell.

I didn't come here trying to win friends.

Something outside of your skill set I would imagine.

I came here to challenge your theology, and no one has refuted the OP. And Anoetos admitted to it.

None of us is another's spokesman. Anoetos seemed to me to be saying whether you were wrong or not, it didn't matter. We could have shut you up with two posts if we'd said the same. I believe it does matter, hence this debacle.

As for refutation, you've been refuted countless times. You refuse to address verses you disagree with and seem to have been taught by your poor parents that saying "no" = reasoned argument.

What is all this babble? I came here to debate, and I've challenged your theology, and all you can do is post all this "stuff". LOL

You didn't come here to debate. You came here to preach. If you don't know the difference feel free to look it up.

Your extreme use of hyperbole reveals just how emotional you are. Yes, you do have issues, and serious ones at that. Hopefully, you'll get some help with them. I mean that.

I hope for your sake that you're not questioning the mental health of my friend in open forum. That would be a mistake.

The whole of this thread has seen you insulting and levelling accusations at us as Calvinists and as individuals. You wrongly assume that our attitude to you is centred around our being unable to refute you. You were refuted on the first page, you just can't admit it. We are strong and sure in what we believe, so don't think for a nanosecond that your appearance here has changed anything. Our frustration is that you came here to preach anti-Calvinist rhetoric and you're not bright enough to see it's failed.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

The main text for being "born again" (or "born from above" NRSV, ISV, NET, YLT, NJB; "born anew" WEB) is John 3:3. It reads "see". Not "alive" or "dead" ...but "see". You've got to be able to "see the kingdom" to convert to it ! Can't convert to something you cannot even see. This what regeneration does. All that regeneration does ! Unlike Calling (effectual or general), regeneration does NOT contain the Gospel or any other doctrine. It simply opens blind eyes and deaf ears. The person henceforth can "see the kingdom". Thus they can understand the Gospel when they hear it ...making Effectual Calling possible. Regeneration sometimes occurs in people milliseconds before Effectual Calling. Regeneration sometimes occurs in people decades before Effectual Calling.

The important thing being that it must occur PRIOR to the effectual call.

I am trying to follow you, but some things just aren't plain enough to make out what you are trying to say.

What I do take from you is that all regeneration does is make a person see. I take you mean once born again, they are able to understand the Gospel. However, Peter says one is born again through the living word. So one would have to hear, understand, and believe the word to be born again.

 

[Hammster]

And so I ask, what is your source of truth?

All 66 books.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Actually, it's Jesus' truth according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Mere men. Just like Paul, the one you reject for being a mere man.

You haven't been paying close attention. I reject some of his teachings because they are lies, and because he uses deception towards believers, and because he teaches foreign doctrines found nowhere else.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

All 66 books.

Then you shouldn't have any problem loving God and your neighbor to obtain eternal life. And striving to enter the narrow gate should be a priority for you. And you should do good to obtain the resurrection of life.

 

[tulipbee]

I am trying to follow you, but some things just aren't plain enough to make out what you are trying to say.

What I do take from you is that all regeneration does is make a person see. I take you mean once born again, they are able to understand the Gospel. However, Peter says one is born again through the living word. So one would have to hear, understand, and believe the word to be born again.

There is no set time frame between when a person is regenerated, and when they convert to Christ. Could be simultaneous. Or, could be years apart ! And regeneration only opens minds and softens hearts. It instills no doctrine or knowledge. Instead, regeneration makes accepting doctrine and having knowledge possible. We have doctrine and Saving Knowledge of Christ through hearing the Gospel ! (Romans 10:17) Which explains why the Lord gave us His Word [Bible]. The Holy Spirit does NOT whisper the Gospel into our mind's ear !

 

[guuila]

You haven't been paying close attention. I reject some of his teachings because they are lies, and because he uses deception towards believers, and because he teaches foreign doctrines found nowhere else.

Why do you accept Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? How do you know they weren't lying? Or how do you know they didn't make mistakes?

 

[guuila]

Then you shouldn't have any problem loving God and your neighbor to obtain eternal life. And striving to enter the narrow gate should be a priority for you. And you should do good to obtain the resurrection of life.

What was the point of the cross?

 

[Hammster]

Then you shouldn't have any problem loving God and your neighbor to obtain eternal life. And striving to enter the narrow gate should be a priority for you. And you should do good to obtain the resurrection of life.

If rather trust Christ for eternal life. I cannot be perfect, as Jesus requires. And there's the sin issue, as well.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

If rather trust Christ for eternal life. I cannot be perfect, as Jesus requires. And there's the sin issue, as well.

If you trust Him and call Him Lord, then you should do as He says.

Read the passages where Jesus says to be perfect. It's talking about loving our enemies as God does.

Yes, I will agree there is the sin issue. That's why we are told to cleanse the heart, cast away our transgressions, turn from our sins, and remove them from our heart. They will not go away on their own. As long as you do nothing about it, they will always be an issue, and only get worse as time goes on.