Calvinism huh?

[backward in time]

what is calvinism? and is it right? im not exacty sure of either. i was never told what calvinism is so i looked it up on GOOGLE and i keep getting what is called TULIP?
Total depravity (Original sin)
Unconditional election (God's Election)
Limited atonement (Particular Redemption)
Irresistibe grace (Effectual Calling)
Perserverance of the Saints

I asked one of my friends and he said calvinism is wrong...... what do you think?

God Bless,
BIT

 

[victoryword]

I agree with your friend 100%. Look at what these terms REALLY mean to the Calvinist:

Total depravity (Original sin) = No ability to accept Christ as Savior.
Unconditional election (God's Election) = God selected some to be saved and others to be ****** from eternity pass based on nothing other than His eternal decree.
Limited atonement (Particular Redemption) = Jesus died ONLY for those that were elected. He did not die for the whole world.
Irresistibe grace (Effectual Calling) = God calls all those (and only those) that were selected according to His eternal decree. This grace cannot be resisted. Those selected MUST come to Christ. They have no choice or say so in the matter.
Perserverance of the Saints = Those who were selected will persever to the end and make it in. Those who were not were only false converts and were not saved in the first place. No one can have any assurance as to whether or not they have truly been elected until that final day.


Is it wrong? Either Calvinism is wrong or the Scriptures are wrong because Calvinism goes directly against Scripture.

 

[Benedicta00]

Ditto.

I don't believe it to be the truth that Jesus preached. I don't find it completely with out merit but the four areas I disagree with are: their view on original sin, that we have no free will to cooperate with God's grace, and that God does not give all people the grace they need to come to a saving faith and I totally disagree with how Calvinist view Christ's atonement.

Other than that, I do not necessarily disagree with it entirely.

 

[CyphaPSU]

It would be wrong to just write-off Calvinism as being "wrong." It's part of an inhouse debate within the church among believers. Typically, Calvinism is pitted against Arminianism. Both schools of thought deal with the process of how God grants salvation the believer. Both agree that salvation comes by God's grace through faith in Christ's atoning work on the cross and in His resurrection from the dead--so both views have the essentials correct and thus are within the pale of orthodoxy.


To really simplify things:

The basic theme of Calvinism emphasizes that people are dead in their sin and thus have no ability to "choose" to respond to the Gospel and place their faith in Christ; therefore God has to do all the work in changing the heart of the sinner (by His grace) and to give the sinner the ability to accept the Gospel messege and place his or her faith in Christ. This saving grace, as taught by Calvinism, is irresistable to the person--meaning that the individual cannot reject or subvert the work of God's saving grace in his or her heart. In other words, God "chooses" the individual to follow Him instead of the individual "choosing" to follow God--this relates to Calvanism's view towards predestination. **Note, there is a difference bewteen hyper-Calvinism and plain Calvinism (I don't have time to explain the differences).

Arminianism emphasizes the role of the believer in salvation--that the God has given all men and women the ability to accept or reject Him and the Gospel messege. In common day language, Arminianism stresses that man has free-will to "choose" to accept God or to reject Him. This approach argues that Calvinism denies free-will in man. Those who hold to Arminianism also believe in predestination since it's an idea clearly taught by Sacred Scripture. However, Arminianists view how predestination works differently than Calvinists. Many Arminianists view predestination as being that God looks down the corridor of time, knows those who are going to accept the Gospel and believe in Christ, and on that basis God "predestines" them.


I personally believe that how one views God's saving grace is the key issue to this debate. If you believe God's saving grace (call to salvation) cannot be rejected by an individual when God works at changing the heart, then you will likely land on the side of Calvinism. If you believe that God's saving grace can be rejected by the individual, then you will likely fall on the side of Arminianism.

In other words, the key question is: does God's grace always accomplish what God intends for it, or can it be subverted?

Please realize that I have simplified the two sides; it was not an attempt to exhaustively explain all the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. Another thing is that this debate should NOT cause division among the body of Christ. It is a secondary issue, an important one, but NOT an essential. (Division shall only occur when there is a split on doctrines essential to Biblical Christianity--when there is a heresy). Calvinists and Arminianists should enjoy perfect Christian fellowship with one another.

Sorry I am so brief, but I just don;t have the time to explain further. Hope I was at least of some help

 

[CyphaPSU]

Perserverance of the Saints = Those who were selected will persever to the end and make it in. Those who were not were only false converts and were not saved in the first place. No one can have any assurance as to whether or not they have truly been elected until that final day.

Friend, the last sentense is not quite accurate. In fact, the exact opposite is true. According to Calvinism, the idea behind the "Perserverance of the Saints" is that a believer in Christ can and should have assurance of salvation--that God accomplishes every good work He starts. This doctrine, according to Calvinism, offers great hope to the believer that he or she will perservere until the last day because of God's grace.

 

[eutychus37]

I second everything CyphaPSU said. That's the gist of Calvinism/Arminianism, without the spin.

 

[d0c markus]

before i read anything i have never heard a good thing about calvanism.. now i will read

 

[d0c markus]

so far im in diagreement with the tulip thing. but thats just me.

cya

 

[Carico]

I'm a Calvinist. I don't believe that we have a choice to accept salvation because Christ said "In the beginning you were with me." "You did not choose me, I chose you." I definitely believe that once everyone hears Christ's words, they are then convicted of sin. BUT, just like the reason God chose David which is that He knew David's heart, the hearts of all men are not the same. Not all men can accept God's word and God knows this. That is why the only unforgiveable sin is the sin against the Holy Spirit. I do not have the power to accept or reject Christ. Only the Holy Spirit can make me believe. It's the same as learning another language. We cannot understand a language that is foreign to us unless we have an interpreter. Once someone interprets another language to us, it is almost impossible to not understand it. However, the Holy Spirit is incompatible in some people and God knows this. Let's take Hitler, for example, If the Holy Spirit had come to him during his peak of power, in order to repent, he would have had to take responsibility for all the death and destruction he caused in the world. That alone is enough to drive a man to suicide and unending grief. It would literally tear a man apart. God doesn't send the holy Spirit to people who cannot handle it. We are all slaves to whatever masters us. We can only understand what we understand. I do not think our "choice" to come to God is from our superior intelligence, loving heart, and pure motives. Our ability to come to God comes from the Holy Spirit. I think the apostle Paul knows this best.


Jesus said that "I can do nothing without my Father in heaven." He also said "No one is good but God alone." He acknowledges that His ability to do ANYTHING good comes from His Father. He gives himself NO credit. So how then can any of us say that we are responsible for our salvation? How can we change our own hearts? If we could, we wouldn't need Christ. When each of us looks at the envy, greed, gluttony, sloth, pride, wrath, and lust we have, who gives us the power to not respond out of those? Ourselves? of course not. God showed us in the OT how we cannot do that.

God is in complete control of the universe, not me. He said, "I will harden whom I want to harden and have mercy on whom i want to have mercy." "No one can come to the Father unless the Father draws him." I thnk His words are wuite clear on who controls the world. All free will means is that God wants us to DESIRE Him. He does this through pain. He allows the ones who've been chosen by Him have to suffer pain in order to seek a better way. He does not force his love on any of us. The bible is riddled with God's soverien power and our helplessness in relation to that. If Jesus had rejected the holy Spirit and not died for humanity, then God would have been wrong in conceiving him. God is never wrong.

 

[puriteen18]

Is it wrong? Either Calvinism is wrong or the Scriptures are wrong because Calvinism goes directly against Scripture.

Sir, are you sure you are reading the Bible?

I know what it is to see Calvinism as false teaching, for I was raised to believe in Free will.

But while in a deep Bible study to disproove it, I found that it is the truth.

Here is the most convicing passage, I think.


John 8
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[puriteen18]

Here is a few more verses that teach God's sovereign will in Salvation:

Exodus 33:19, "And He said, "I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy."

Deut. 7:6-8, "For thou art a holy people unto the lord thy God, the Lord they God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all the people that are on the face of the earth. The lord id not set his love upon you or choose you because you were more in number than any people, for Ye were the fewest of all people, but because the Lord loved you."

Deut. 10:15, "Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day."

Joshua 11:20, "For it was the Lord who hardened their hearts, that they should come against Israel."

I Kings 20:42, "And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord, because thou hast let go out of they hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore thy life shall go for his life."

II Chronicles 6:6, "But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be their, and David to be over my people Israel."

Psalm 33:12, "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord and the people whom he hath chosen for His own inheritance."

Psalm 65:4 "Blessed is the man you choose and cause to approach you."

Psalm 78:67-70 , "Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph and chose not the tribe of Ephraim, but chose the tribe of Judah, the mount of Zion which he loved. He chose David also his servant and took him form the sheepfolds. "

Psalm 135:4, "For the Lord hath chosen Jacob for himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure."

Proverbs 16:4, "The Lord hath made all things for himself, even the wicked for the day of evil."

Proverbs 21:1, "The Kings heart is in the hand of the Lord as the rivers of water, he turneth it withersoever he will."

Isaiah 44:1-2, "Yet now hear O Jacob my servant whom I have chosen...and thou Jerusalem whom I have chosen."

Isaiah 45:4, "For Jacob my servants sake and Israel's mine elect, I have called thee by thy name."

Jeremiah 1:5, "Before I formed thee in the womb I knew thee, and before thou hast come out of the womb I saved thee, and I ordained thee as a prophet to the nations."

Malachi 1:2-3, "I d you saith the Lord, "But how have you loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord, yet Jacob I loved and Esau I hated."

Matthew 20:16, "For many are called but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:22, 24 "And except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved, but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Insomuch as it were possible they shall deceive the very elect. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of the trumpet and they shall gather together the elect from the four winds."

Mark 13:20, 22, 27 (repeat above)

Luke 8:10, "Unto you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God; but to others in parables, that seeing they may not see and hearing they may not hear." (Matthew 11:25)

Luke 18:7, "And shall not God avenge his own elect which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them."

John 6:37, 39, 65, "All that the Father shall give to me shall come to me...And this is the father's will which hath sent me, that all of which he hath given me I should lose none of them...No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day...Therefore no man come to me except it is granted to him by the Father."

John 10: 14, "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep and they know me, even as the Father knoweth me and I know the Father and I lay my life down for the sheep, but Ye do not believe, for Ye are not my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

John 13:18, "I speak not of you all, I know those whom I have chosen..."15:16, "Ye have not chosen me but I have chosen you and ordained you that Ye should go and bring forth fruit, fruit that shall remain..."15:19, "If Ye were of the world the world would love its own, but because you are not of the world but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."17:19, "I pray for the believers, I pray not for the world, but for them which you have given me, for they are yours."

Acts 2:23, "Jesus being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, Ye have taken, and by wicked hands has crucified and slain."

Acts 2:46-47, "And they continuing daily with one accord in the temple and breaking bread from house to house did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily as many as should be saved."

Acts 4:28, "Herod and Pontius Pilate did whatsoever they hand and thy counsel determined before hand should happen."

Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord, and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Acts 22:14, "And he said the God of our fathers hath chosen thee that thou shouldst know his will and see that Just One, Jesus, and should hear the voice of his mouth."

Romans 8:29, 30, 33, "For whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son...moreover whom he did predestine them he also called, them he called, these he also justified, these he justified, these he also glorified. Who shall lay any charge to God's elect?"

Romans 9:6-26, "And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac (For the children not yet being born, neither having done anything good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election may stand, not of works but of Him who calls), I t was said unto her, the older shall serve the younger, As it is written, Jacob I d Esau I have hated. What shall we say then? Is there any unrighteousness with God? Certainly not. For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will show compassion on whom I will show compassion. So then it is not of man who wills, or him who runneth, bu8t God who shows mercy. For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose I have raise you up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my might shall be seen throughout all the earth. Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whomever he shall hardeneth he shall hardeneth. You will say unto me, why does he still find fault? Shall the thing formed say to the him which formed it, why did you make me this way? Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump to make on vessel unto honor and one for dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, endued patience the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction?"

Romans 11:5, 7-8, 28, "Even so at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. What then, Israel has not obtained that which he had seeketh for, but the elect have obtained it and the rest were blinded. According to what was written, "God has given them a spirit of slumber, eyes that should not see. As concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but as for the elect they are the beloved of God..."

I Cor. 1:27-29, "But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the wise, and the base things of the world and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea and things which are not saved to bring to nought that they are. That no flesh should glory in his presence."

Galatians 1:15, "But it pleased God who separated me from my mother's womb at birth, and called me by his grace."

Ephesians 1:5, 11, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, having predestined us to adoption as children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will...In whom we also have obtained an inheritance being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will."

Ephesians 3:11, "According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus.."

Colossians 3:12, "Put on therefore as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, long-suffering..."

I Thessalonians 1:4, "Remember without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in Jesus Christ in the sight of God and our Father; knowing brethren beloved, you election with God."

1 Thessalonians 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

2 Thessalonians 2:13, "But we are bound to give thanks always for you to God, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

2 Timothy 2:10, "Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect..."

Titus 1:1, "Paul a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness."

1 Peter 1:1-2, "Peter an apostle of Jesus Christ to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."

1 Peter 2:9, "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, peculiar people;"

1 Peter 5:13, "The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you..."

2 Peter 1:10, "Give diligence and make your calling and election sure..."

 

[puriteen18]

No one can have any assurance as to whether or not they have truly been elected until that final day.

Calvinists do teach that we can have assurance.

2 Peter 1
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


Jonathan Edwards wrote a book called Religious Affections, which is all about finding assurance in our election and salvation.

If we have no assurance, how in the world could we live our day to day lives and keep sanity?

We all have doubts of course, but don't all Christians suffer doubts?

PS. I don't mean to pick on you Victoryword, just defend my faith. I hope you don't think me rude or mean, for I wish to be as courteous as possible.

 

[Lyle]

Personally, I odn't really want to get into the almighty debate over which is correct... Though I myself am a 2 point Calvinist... but here are some boards, where you can go and ask people yourself

CGR
Puritan Board

As Define:

Calvinism: The belief that God predestined, before the foundation of the world, some to repent and believe (and, by extension, others not to). Under Calvinism, humans are totally dead in sin and unable to make a decision for Christ on their own, so if we were left to ourselves, all would be lost. Calvinism also states that God draws all whom He has chosen to believe in Him and that we are unable to resist that drawing. Furthermore, just as God draws us, He is also able to preserve us in Him, so no true believer can be lost. This does not mean that believers have a license to sin, because true regeneration should produce good works. Calvinism also states that Christ's death was intended to atone for the sins of the elect only, not the sins of everyone.

Calvinism is generally summed up in a system of "Five Points", collectively known as the Five Points of Calvinism and abbreviated with the acrostic TULIP. These five points are: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints

 

[puriteen18]

Actually, I think, you have to be a Calvinists and hold to either the Westminster Confession or the London Baptist Confession of 1689 to join the Puritan Board.

 

[Netpreacher]

In the Scriptures, many individuals are mentioned as being perfect in all their ways, ie Job, Elizabeth, Ruth, etc. If the doctrine of Total Depravity is true, then why are these Biblical characters referred to as being morally perfect if God knows they are not morally perfect?

 

[Netpreacher]

In the Epistle of Ephesians, Paul addresses a Gentile people concerning the mystery of God, which was kept hidden from men until the time God revealed it to Paul. This mystery concerns God's election.

Prior to the new covenant established by Jesus Christ at the cross, only the Hebrews were considered God's chosen people. The Hebrew nation consisted of all those who followed the Abrahamic covenant of circumcision and the Mosaic covenant of the law. They were chosen as God's people.

However, even some of Israel fell, as can be plainly seen in the account of their travels in the wilderness. Paul states in Romans that not all Israel went into the promised land, and the writer of Hebrews (who I believe is Paul) states the people of Israel did not enter into the promised land because of unbelief.

Now, because of the new covenant, our hearts can be circumsized by faith in the cross of Christ for the remission of our sins, and obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ, so God can write His law upon our hearts. This covenant has now been given to the Gentiles, that they may receive, or inherit, the blessings of Abraham through faith in God's Son, Jesus Christ.

The mystery of the election, the mystery of predestination, is not individual election, but corporate election of the Gentiles to be included into the blessings of the LORD.

Attempting to make every man perfect in Christ Jesus,
Danny

 

[Lyle]

Actually, I think, you have to be a Calvinists and hold to either the Westminster Confession or the London Baptist Confession of 1689 to join the Puritan Board.

really? I'm part of it and am a member... Just go there and look up the user nameLyle

 

[Netpreacher]

The Gospel message is very simple: everybody is going to die, and death is caused by sin. The only way to live forever is to get rid of sin. God has given us a way to remove our sin. Jesus Christ provided His blood shed on the cross to pay the punishment for our sin. If we believe that the blood of Jesus Christ is good enough to cleanse our soul from sin, then God will erase all sin from our soul. Because our sin is now removed, we can have access to God through His Son, Jesus Christ, by His Spirit, the Holy Ghost, which dwells in those who trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior.

This is the message of the atonement of Jesus Christ. His blood shed on the cross is good enough to satisfy God of His anger for our sins. This atonement is presented to all who are willing to turn from their evil ways. However, most people love their sins more than they love Jesus Christ. Not all will be saved due to their unbelief in the power of God's resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

The atonement is only limited by man's faith in it. God only favors those who are repentant and humble, who are willing to come to the cross of Jesus Christ. This is His grace, and, unfortunately, not all will believe.

God knows who will choose Him, and He chooses those who are of a contrite and broken spirit. God chose Jacob because of His humble and contrite heart. God hated Esau because of his rashness in trading away the blessing of God.

It is unwise to tell young believers, "Well, if God chooses you, you'll make it in," because this gives believers a good reason to disobey God.

When I get to heaven, I would rather err on the side of Atonement for Everyone who Comes to Him than Limited Atonement, because limited atonement has caused far more damage in young believer's souls than the other.

Attempting to present every man perfect in Christ Jesus,
Danny

 

[Netpreacher]

God was pleased with Jesus Christ when Jesus gave His life at the cross. Jesus did not complain, murmur, or blame anybody while at the cross. He took it like a man. God was very pleased with Jesus Christ at the cross, and rewarded Him with eternal life, giving Him the keys of hell and death for all eternity.

The cross of Jesus Christ is how we receive the favor of God. If we agree with God by saying, "You know God, I agree; Jesus' death on the cross was very good! It is good enough even for me!" then God will favor us above anyone else.

His favor is at the cross, and the only way to present the cross of Christ is through preaching the cross. When the cross is preached, the Spirit of God awakens the hearts of men to look upon the cross of Calvary and receive God's favor. However, if there are any other idols in the heart, then the cross will not take root, and the seed of the word of God will fall by the wayside.

When the cross of Jesus Christ is preached, souls will be saved. However, it is up to the individual to either agree with God or disagree with Him. Most of the time, actually, people agree with God concerning the cross. It's living the cross that most people have a hard time with (forgive the dangling participle).

Attempting to make every man perfect in Christ Jesus,
Danny

 

[Netpreacher]

Most eternal security believers like to dismiss the major Scriptures that disprove it by saying "Oh, Hebrews wasn't written for the Gentiles," or "The Gospels were written only for those who lived during the time of Christ." However, most believers of eternal security like to use Scriptures located in Hebrews or the Gospels to prove other points of doctrine, which is very inconsistent.

However, Paul states in Romans concerning the branches in the olive tree. They can be taken out of the tree due to unbelief. This makes it very simple. The only requirement to maintain your salvation in Christ is faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God (Oops, this is a Hebrews verse), therefore if you don't have faith in the Gospel, even if you had faith at one time, then you do not have it anymore.

Of course, God knows who will perservere until the end, but to tell somebody "Once you say your prayers and do this and that, you can never lose your salvation," shows a lack of maturity or laziness in your Christian life.

Of course, we can have an assurance of faith because of the Spirit of God dwelling in our hearts, but the Spirit of God is made of intangible spirit; it cannot be felt by human hands. In order to know the Spirit of God dwells in you, you must believe He lives in you, and God will pour out His Spirit to bear fruit unto eternal life.

Jesus said, If any man will come after me, let him take up his cross and follow me. To follow Him is to know Him, to know Him is to believe in Him. Jesus also said, No man putting his hand on the plow and looking back is not fit for the Kingdom of God (oops, I used verses in the Gospels).

The big question: can a Christian lose their salvation? If they lose their faith in the blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross of Calvary as the perfect atonement for the removal of sins, then their sins remain, death comes, and the destruction of their soul follows after death by the flames of eternal hellfire and brimstone. Don't fear him who can take away your body, but fear Him who can throw your soul into hell.

Attempting to present every man perfect in Christ Jesus,
Danny