Calvinism huh?

[Netpreacher]

Who would like you like to be then? The inquisition also was after Servetus but he got away from them earlier. Neither Calvin nor Luther were perfect by any stretch of the imagination but your characterization of them is not fair.

The papacy is far more responsible for the deaths of innocent lives than Luther and Calvin, by far, but I believe history will stand for itself in the characterization of Luther and Calvin.

The Bible clearly tells us if a righteous man commits an unrighteous act, all righteous acts prior to his act of sin are to be erased. The righteousness of the past will not excuse the sins of the present. Luther may have "discovered" justification by faith alone, and stood up for that doctrine in front of his enemies, but he became an unrepentant murderer. Calvin may have "discovered" the sovereignty of God, but his attitude towards those who disagreed with him, even in consenting to murder, completely removes all his credibility.

I want to follow those who follow Christ Jesus in sincerity and in truth with charity for the body of Christ. Finney, Wesley, Edwards, Savonarola, Fenelon, Guyon, Bunyan, the list goes on of the body of saints who walked with God all the days of their Christian life. These are the jewels in the crown of God, not those who start out good, but fall into idolatry or murderous sins.

 

[Netpreacher]

Many make a false confession in the LORD. They do it no tout of faith in Him, but out of perhaps a "religious high" brought about by a meeting service. Perhaps a persons seeks only the saving from Hell and not to follow after the narrow way.

The verse mentioned above tells us in its own context who are the false converts. Jesus says, Depart from me, ye that work iniquity. The false converts are those who do all these things in the name of God yet still sin.

I neither want to sound hateful, for all of my family are free-willers, as well as most of my friends. As I have said, I am just defending my faith.

I know it can be hard to try to defend doctrine, for I am in the same strait with my friends as well. It should be an issue for lively Christian discussion in the spirit of charity. I enjoy hashing this issue out, because I think I'm right for one thing , but also it gives the body of Christ a way to discover possibly that ground where the truth concerning this issue truly stands .

 

[Netpreacher]

Servetus taught that there is no original sin, an unorthodox idea of the Trinity, and other heresies.

He and Calvin had written back and forth over the doctrine of the Trinity. Calvin told him not to come to Geneva. He came anyway. He was told to not teach his heresies, he did anyway. He was told to leave, he didn't. He was convicted and burned.

No, I do not think that we should burn heretics, but I think Servetus had ample opputunity to live.
_____________

I mean mot here to sound prideful but there was a
definition mix up:

holiness- to be seperate, apart.
righteousness- to be right living.

Righteousness is a secondary definition of holiness.
________

True Calvin burned a heretic. I do not believe this was right, but your earlier accusation to say that Calvinism leads to a lack of moral responsiblity is wrong.

Swiss Calvinist, French Hugenouts, the Scotch Prebys, and especially the English Puritans have from the begining been under attack by those who would call them legalists. Call us legalists, when we believe that following the Law will grant us nothing toward salvation, that it is all of His sovereign Grace. We only teach that those who are truly of God follow His Law because they love Him and wish to please Him.

First, here in Portland, OR, there is a scourge of Galatian Torah-observance ravaging the Christian community. The Bible tells us what to do with heretics: deliver them to Satan after two admonitions. I don't think burning someone at the stake can be said to be "delivering one to Satan," although some may be able to pull it out from that verse if they so desire.

The Puritans have been accused as well of burning heretics, but whether those accounts are accurate, only those involved and the Lord truly knows. However, I do not know of any Wesleyans or Anabaptists who have done the same. If you know of any, please tell me.

It's funny you mentioned legalism, because most Calvinists would call me a legalist because I believe obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ through faith is legalism!

 

[Netpreacher]

What a thread this has turned into!

I feel responsible for it, because I was the one who brought up the godlessness of Calvin and Luther during the latter years of their lives. If it is okay, can we return to the doctrinal discussion regarding reformed doctrine?

 

[oworm]

Its rather a circular argument that has raged for the last 400 and odd years.At the end of the day there will be no winners and while souls are daily being delivered to hell the church sits around and argues over doctrine. Not that argument is wrong but this one is really "old hat" by now. Still i,ll probably find myself being caught up in it again at some point lol

 

[Benedicta00]

while souls are daily being delivered to hell

Huh? Do you know this as a fact? Where in scripture does it say this? Where in scripture does it even say anyone is in hell? We know there are occupants there from scripture but that could be a reference to the fallen angels, so where does it say that souls are going there daily?

What the bible says is that theoretically speaking unrepentant sinner go to hell. That yours sins merit hell and you can go there if they are not forgiven.

 

[Benedicta00]

The papacy is far more responsible for the deaths of innocent lives than Luther and Calvin, by far, but I believe history will stand for itself in the characterization of Luther and Calvin.

*Oh brother...*

How about this: All involved, the Catholic Popes and the two leading reformers have original sin, the cause of poor judgement and that have all made ridiculous mistakes that is why all involved need a savior and have the same savior in Christ.

 

[oworm]

Huh? Do you know this as a fact? Where in scripture does it say this? Where in scripture does it even say anyone is in hell?

MT 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?



Luke 16 The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.

 

[G4m]

MT 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?



Luke 16 The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.

anyone plucking?

Mark 9
47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,

 

[Benedicta00]

None of those verses say there are souls who go to hell daily.

I'll repeat,

What the bible says is that theoretically speaking unrepentant sinners go to hell. That yours sins merit hell and you can go there if they are not forgiven.

 

[Netpreacher]

Its rather a circular argument that has raged for the last 400 and odd years.At the end of the day there will be no winners and while souls are daily being delivered to hell the church sits around and argues over doctrine. Not that argument is wrong but this one is really "old hat" by now. Still i,ll probably find myself being caught up in it again at some point lol

Are you active in evangelizing the lost?

 

[Blackhawk]

John Calvin is a MURDERER!!!!

7 years before the incident:

"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."

After the incident:
"Many people have accused me of such ferocious cruelty that (they allege) I would like to kill again the man I have destroyed. Not only am I indifferent to their comments, but I rejoice in the fact that they spit in my face." "Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt.


​

Again quotes with no context do not impress me. Please give reasons that have support by giving your quotes context or at least showig everyone where you got them.

 

[Blackhawk]

The papacy is far more responsible for the deaths of innocent lives than Luther and Calvin, by far, but I believe history will stand for itself in the characterization of Luther and Calvin.

Well first of all I do not think it is fair to judge the papacy compared to Luther and Calvin alone. The Papacy has involved many more people and many more thousands of years.

Also whose history stands in the characterization of Luther and Calvin? Sure we might know most of the facts although we do not all agree on them. Also we do not know all the whys involved. And finally whose view of history are we supposed to take as truth? Think about the civil war in America. There many who think it was primarily about slavery and many others who say no it was primarily about state rights. See just saying "history will stand for itself" does not mean anything to me because we have to define who interpretation of history we are speaking about.

The Bible clearly tells us if a righteous man commits an unrighteous act, all righteous acts prior to his act of sin are to be erased.

Then we are all doomed to hell. For we all commit unrighteous act everyday and we are considered righteouss. But where does the Bible say this?

The righteousness of the past will not excuse the sins of the present. Luther may have "discovered" justification by faith alone, and stood up for that doctrine in front of his enemies, but he became an unrepentant murderer. Calvin may have "discovered" the sovereignty of God, but his attitude towards those who disagreed with him, even in consenting to murder, completely removes all his credibility.

Does it? Does it when one looks at the history of the time? I personally think that great men (and women) write above themselves. Paul and John did that. And I also think that Calvin and Luther did also. (although not inspired) But are we to just throw out all the good writings that one did because they did some stupid things? I am not so quick to do so. Also if we look at the history of the time period we can understand the whys a little bit more. And although I do not want to excuse anyone for sin I think the whys are very important and can determine how we look at someone.

And finally who has shown that Calvin was a murderer? i have seen no proof. Sure he was instrumental in having Servetus killed for heresy but has anyone proved that was murder?

I want to follow those who follow Christ Jesus in sincerity and in truth with charity for the body of Christ. Finney, Wesley, Edwards, Savonarola, Fenelon, Guyon, Bunyan, the list goes on of the body of saints who walked with God all the days of their Christian life. These are the jewels in the crown of God, not those who start out good, but fall into idolatry or murderous sins.

I got news for you. Edwards, Wesley, Finney (especially), Savonarola, Fenelon, Guyon, and Bunyan committed acts ofsin all of their lives. They were never perfect. That is the problem with men. However I think we would both agree that it is good to accept the good things that they said. Christ is the only man who we should completely imitate. Luther, Calvin, Edwards, Wesley, etc. we should only imitate when they were not messing up.

 

[Carico]

We simply are not supposed to follow men, only Christ. Some of what Luther and Calvin said is srciptural. Some is not. I follow Christ's words.

 

[Blackhawk]

We simply are not supposed to follow men, only Christ. Some of what Luther and Calvin said is srciptural. Some is not. I follow Christ's words.

Really?


II Th 3:7-9
7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,
8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we {kept} working night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you;
9 not because we do not have the right {to this} but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.
(NAU)


Eph 4:11-12
11 And He gave some {as} apostles, and some {as} prophets, and some {as} evangelists, and some {as} pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
(NAU)


Surely Christ is our ultimate example but we have fellowship with other humans partially so that we can learn from them the right way.

 

[Carico]

Again, I believe there are certain aspects of some followers that are a good example for other followers. But we do not believe their every word. To do so would be to worship them. I feel the same way about Luther and Calvin. The both say some things that are scriptural, but they themselves are not truth.

 

[armothe]

Really?


Surely Christ is our ultimate example but we have fellowship with other humans partially so that we can learn from them the right way.

But you have to discern who is worthy to be followed and learned from.
Paul? Peter? Inspired apostles are a good start.

Luther? Calvin? They had some good things to say. But they were a far cry from inspired apostles.

-A

 

[Blackhawk]

But you have to discern who is worthy to be followed and learned from.

Okay

Paul? Peter? Inspired apostles are a good start.

Luther? Calvin? They had some good things to say. But they were a far cry from inspired apostles.

-A

I do not know if Luther and Calvin were a far cry from Peter and Paul. First Peter deined Christ 3 times and Paul persecuted Christians for a long time. Secondly we know a lot more about the life of Calvin and Luther. How much do we know about Peter and Paul's life besides what they wrote in the Bible. Maybe we know enough about Paul but not Peter. Also the apostles were only inspired when they wrote the Bible. They were fallible other times. The stuff they wrote that was put in the Bible is the only inerrant thing wrote. And why do we have to choose between the apostles and the reformers? Why not both since many think that they preached the same things. Others do not but I think that we all concede that some do follow both.

 

[Blackhawk]

Again, I believe there are certain aspects of some followers that are a good example for other followers. But we do not believe their every word. To do so would be to worship them. I feel the same way about Luther and Calvin. The both say some things that are scriptural, but they themselves are not truth.

When did I ever say that we should believe there every word. Certaintly protestants do not believe in that except for God's word. As a Baptist I really do not put my trust in fallible men.

 

[oworm]

Are you active in evangelizing the lost?

Always prepared "In season and out of season to give an explanation for the hope i have in me"