Calvinism...."he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

[holo]

True, but you are no longer under bondage of sin. (if you are regenrate)

True.

 

[sojourner]

Bulldog,

True, but you are no longer under bondage of sin. (if you are regenrate)

even the unregenerate is free from the bondage of death and sin. That is what Christ accomplished on the Cross, freed mankind from the bondage of death and sin through Adam.

That is why as a regenerate, a beleiver we need not live IN sin, willingly sin, practice sin. We can with the Holy Spirit live by the Spirit rather than the flesh.

What does this mean for the unregenerate. Those that do not beleive are already condenmed. They are condenmed by their active choice of not believing. They choose to place themselves back into bondage to sin or the flesh.

 

[Bulldog]

Bulldog,

even the unregenerate is free from the bondage of death and sin. That is what Christ accomplished on the Cross, freed mankind from the bondage of death and sin through Adam.

That is why as a regenerate, a beleiver we need not live IN sin, willingly sin, practice sin. We can with the Holy Spirit live by the Spirit rather than the flesh.

What does this mean for the unregenerate. Those that do not beleive are already condenmed. They are condenmed by their active choice of not believing. They choose to place themselves back into bondage to sin or the flesh.

Hello sojourner,

I disagree. Do you have any scriptural support for the idea that the unregenrate were set free based on Christ's sacrifice.

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, (Romans 3:9)​

 

[Egghead]

Egghead - about Romans 7.



I'm not an "instant sanctification type", and I took the same interpetation you did (even as a Calvinist) until I saw the exegetical reasons that Paul is not referring to his post-conversion state.

First of all sarx ("flesh") is a term Paul normally uses to refer to the unregenrate man, something that is too weak to overcome sin. (and by the way, the "flesh" [sarx] is not evil in and of itself). Romans 7 refers to somone who is still bound by sin, "captive to sin" (7:25), not freed from it and "dead to sin" as the regernate man is. (Romans 6) Paul does say "I am", but it is the emphatic ego eimi too emphasize this bondage to sin. (I believe that this is the only place Paul uses ego eimi) Verese 14-25 are an exposition of the previous verses which speak of the unregerante man. Paul is typifying the Pharisee of the time, attempting to follow the law perfectly but unable to do so. (as seen in verse 25, Christ is the relef for this legalism)

I see.

So you reject the obvious then for your greek definitions that may or may not say what you think they do then?

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;
but with the flesh the law of sin.
(Rom 7:25 KJV)

"serve" present tense, I assume.
Present.....as in ''I am currently in this state as I am writing this letter"

and again....

For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions aroused through the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

But now we were released from the law, having died in that to which we were held fast, so that we should serve as slaves in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
(Rom 7:5-6 EMTV)

sounds ''born again'' to me.

 

[Egghead]

And the funny thing is that you cannot see how that completely destroys your doctrine that we can fall away into Perdition.

well yeah, if one has themselves convinced, against clear scripture, that they CANNOT sin, then of course this person would have to believe they cannot fall away or reject.

Too bad that scripture as a whole doesnt teach that the christian is beyond sin.

and John says.....

If we claim that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(1Jo 1:8-9 EMTV)

 

[Bulldog]

Egghead - this is your response? No offense, but I find it a bit underwhelming.

I see.

So you reject the obvious then for your greek definitions that may or may not say what you think they do then?

"serve" present tense, I assume.
Present.....as in ''I am currently in this state as I am writing this letter"

and again....


sounds ''born again'' to me.

As I said before, Paul's point is that Christ brings the freedom of grace to the Pharisee who is trying to follow the law perfectly but cannot. This is the point he makes here (and at the end), before expressing the unregenrate state.

 

[Egghead]

Egghead - this is your response? No offense, but I find it a bit underwhelming.

Id say that hurts, but I dont want to lie

And considering I gave clear scripture on the matter, while all you handed us was your greek scholarship to explain why the text doesnt mean what it says.....well, you know .......we'll take the clear text anyday.

As I said before, Paul's point is that Christ brings the freedom of grace to the Pharisee who is trying to follow the law perfectly but cannot. This is the point he makes here (and at the end), before expressing the unregenrate state.

Sorry, you are just plain wrong guy if youre saying that Paul isnt stating that as a christian he still struggles with his sinful nature.

The last verse says it all...

O wretched man that I am!
Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then I myself with the mind truly serve the Law of God, and with the flesh the law of sin.
(Rom 7:24-25 LITV)

SERVE.....present tense.....coming from a born again christian who never claimed (as some do now) to be free from sin or the sin nature while in this body.

An please, dont hand me Romans 8:1 as an arguement.
NOWHERE does that say he isnt still dealing with the sin nature.
8:1 ONLY shows that if one is walking in the Spirit, then there is no condemnation for us.

Paul IS comparing the old state with the new in Romans 7.

Pertaining to the old he says...

For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions aroused through the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
(Rom 7:5 EMTV)

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law.
For I would not have known lust unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of lust. For apart from the law sin was dead.
For I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, but I died.
And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
For sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and by it, killed me.
(Rom 7:7-11 EMTV)

Showing that Paul STILL has a sin nature.


And to the NEW man, the one who is born again....

For what I am doing, I do not know.
For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, this I do.
But if I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
But now it is no longer I who am doing it, but the sin dwelling in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to do the good, I do not find.
For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, this I practice.
But if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who am doing it, but the sin dwelling in me.
Therefore I find this law, that when I wish to do the right thing, that evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
But I see a different law in my members, waging war against the law of my mind, and capturing me by the law of sin which is in my members.
(Rom 7:15-23 EMTV)

Being a christian did NOT dispose of that nature.
Paul is only explaing the difference between being a sinner under the law compared to being one under grace in chapter 7 and 8.
He is NOT, and doesnt ever in his writings say that he is without the sin nature.
If anything Paul is honest in his writings about his struggle with sin.
Something I admire the man for.....something MOST christians seem to try to hide in the closet these days.

 

[Egghead]

BULLDOG.

a question to you personally.

DO YOU EVER SIN SINCE YOU WERE BORN AGAIN?

And ''yes'', Im going to take this down the same path as I did another poster, so brush up a bit before you answer.

DO YOU EVER SIN SINCE YOU WERE BORN AGAIN?

 

[CCWoody]

I find it a bit underwhelming.

Get used to it.

 

[Bulldog]

BULLDOG.

a question to you personally.

DO YOU EVER SIN SINCE YOU WERE BORN AGAIN?

And ''yes'', Im going to take this down the same path as I did another poster, so brush up a bit before you answer.

DO YOU EVER SIN SINCE YOU WERE BORN AGAIN?

Yes, I have sinned since being born again and I still sin in the present.

God Bless

 

[Godzchild]

Egghead you're not listening to what is being said here. It's clear that you have no understanding as to the difference between your 'flesh' and your 'spirit'.

May I refer you to Romans 7 where Paul talks about doing what his SPIRIT doesn't want to do. Sinning - but not wanting to do it. What does that mean?

I believe that my spirit cannot sin for where there is no law there is no sin! I am made blameless in Jesus Christ, because I'm born of God.

My flesh, however, is still waiting to be redeemed. So my flesh is going to sin - all sin and fall short of the glory of God. It doesnt' contradict each other Egghead. Otherwise God would be contradicting himself when he says "Those who are born of God cannot sin" and "All have sin and fallen short of the Glory of God". But they don't contradict when you understand the difference in natures.

Pauls says that we are to consider ourselvs 'dead' to sin...and alive to God. Our mortal bodies are made alive by the Holy Ghost in us, which is Christ. Therefore it's no longer I that lives but Christ that lives in us. We are then set free from the 'binds' of the flesh and we are at liberty to live sinless lives - through Christ. Because only through Christ can this happen.

When you look at your flesh - what do you see? A tent? A shell of who you REALLY are. Inside you are a new creation - born of God...outside your flesh is riddled with sin. Don't believe me? Take a look in the mirror. See those wrinkles that are forming around your eyes? When you hurt yourself, do you see the blood pouring out and yell out in pain? Why does this happen to you? Because of sin! And no one can be free of this - UNLESS one is born again. Then and ONLY then can the spirit of life in Christ Jesus make you free from the law of sin and death. On the last day, you flesh will be changed into a glorified body. Your sin will be no more because the Holy Spirit will have changed your body into a spiritual one - with no sin...no more flesh to contend with! Therefore sin will not enter heaven because flesh and blood will not enter heaven. Jesus was full of sin (our sin) and his flesh didn't go to heaven either - rather he was changed and glorified into a spiritual being and the price of sin (which is death) was paid for us all.

You either believe that this was enough...or you don't. If you do then you can be assurred of your salvation and your preservation because God is in control of it and not you. If not, then you will live in insecurity and fear of 'hell' for the rest of your life - just because you sin - and WE ALL sin.

 

[Egghead]

Get used to it.

feel free to comment at any time on my posts.

 

[Bulldog]

Good Night, Egghead.

 

[Egghead]

Egghead you're not listening to what is being said here. It's clear that you have no understanding as to the difference between your 'flesh' and your 'spirit'.

Typical response........"its clear you just dont get it''
Its ok tho, I hear that a lot in here

May I refer you to Romans 7 where Paul talks about doing what his SPIRIT doesn't want to do. Sinning - but not wanting to do it. What does that mean?

It means he STILL sins.
He STILL has a sin nature.

I believe that my spirit cannot sin for where there is no law there is no sin!

and heres where you all mess up.
You seem to think because we arent under law that you dont sin.
Wrong.

I am made blameless in Jesus Christ, because I'm born of God.

you are an imperfect sinner covered by the sacrifice of Christ.
You, me, Paul.....and everyone else....are STILL sinners with a sin nature.

My flesh, however, is still waiting to be redeemed. So my flesh is going to sin - all sin and fall short of the glory of God. It doesnt' contradict each other Egghead.
Otherwise God would be contradicting himself when he says "Those who are born of God cannot sin" and "All have sin and fallen short of the Glory of God".
But they don't contradict when you understand the difference in natures.

I think you all run that verse into the ground for one.

but ok, Im game.
WITHOUT posting the calvinists articles of faith (?).....tell us about these ''differences'' that seem to say we STILL sin.....yet CANNOT sin

Pauls says that we are to consider ourselvs 'dead' to sin...and alive to God.

Thats right.....and we do try to not sin.....to be dead to it.....in practice.

We are then set free from the 'binds' of the flesh and we are at liberty to live sinless lives - through Christ.

AH HA !!!
I knew it !!!
So you are at liberty .....aka FREE !!

and since you ARE free to live sinless lives then when you DO sin it is by your OWN FREE WILL that you all do !!!

Even tho some of you have stated that it is ''unwillingly''

When you look at your flesh - what do you see? A tent? A shell of who you REALLY are.
Inside you are a new creation - born of God...outside your flesh is riddled with sin. Don't believe me? Take a look in the mirror.

See those wrinkles that are forming around your eyes?
When you hurt yourself, do you see the blood pouring out and yell out in pain?
Why does this happen to you? Because of sin!
And no one can be free of this - UNLESS one is born again.

Are you kidding with this????

So when one becomes ''born again'' then they no longer......
-get wrinkles
-bleed
-experience pain

Mind if I check your face for wrinkles at 90 and jab you with a pen to see if it hurts and you bleed?

Then and ONLY then can the spirit of life in Christ Jesus make you free from the law of sin and death.

also pain, wrinkles and bleeding

On the last day, you flesh will be changed into a glorified body. Your sin will be no more because the Holy Spirit will have changed your body into a spiritual one - with no sin...no more flesh to contend with!

uh......hello......we're not talking THEN.....we're talking NOW.....in THIS body....

O wretched man that I am!
Who shall deliver me from this body of death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with the mind serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
(Rom 7:24-25 EMTV)

Therefore sin will not enter heaven because flesh and blood will not enter heaven. Jesus was full of sin (our sin) and his flesh didn't go to heaven either - rather he was changed and glorified into a spiritual being and the price of sin (which is death) was paid for us all.

irrelevant.
WE're NOT discussing what WILL happen.....we are discussing our PRESENT state.
The dual nature of the Christian

irrelevance snipped

 

[Egghead]

Yes, I have sinned since being born again and I still sin in the present.

then why is it that you cant seem to let Romans 7 say what it says?

Paul knew the law before conversion and he knew it after.

He expliains his condition before salvation and also after in R0mans 7 and 8.

NOwhere does he state that his sin nature was gone, or that he couldnt sin.

In fact he shows that he fights his sin nature very clearly.

O wretched man that I am!
Who shall deliver me from this body of death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself with the mind serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
(Rom 7:24-25 EMTV)

Present........I SERVE.....
This is a born again man who sinned on occasion and hated it.

 

[Godzchild]

Typical response........"its clear you just dont get it''
Its ok tho, I hear that a lot in here
It means he STILL sins.
He STILL has a sin nature.

No HE does not.

Romans 7 v 17 Now then it is no more I that that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18. For I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwelleth NO GOOD THING: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

and heres where you all mess up.
You seem to think because we arent under law that you dont sin.
Wrong.

You're not understanding. I do not sin - my flesh DOES SIN. Get it?

you are an imperfect sinner covered by the sacrifice of Christ.
You, me, Paul.....and everyone else....are STILL sinners with a sin nature.

No WE are born again and are a new creation. Our FLESH, however, is still full of sin.

but ok, Im game.
WITHOUT posting the calvinists articles of faith (?).....tell us about these ''differences'' that seem to say we STILL sin.....yet CANNOT sin

Oh Egghead - come on!!! Please read up about the two different men - one is a spiritual men who CANNOT SIN. One is a natural man (flesh) WHO SINS.

Thats right.....and we do try to not sin.....to be dead to it.....in practice.

No WE do not need to TRY anything for when we TRY we fail. We are to BELIEVE in the one who died for our sin and walk in Him. We are to consider ourselves ALREADY dead to sin because we are.

AH HA !!!
I knew it !!!
So you are at liberty .....aka FREE !!

and since you ARE free to live sinless lives then when you DO sin it is by your OWN FREE WILL that you all do !!!

It is only limited to what my 'nature' allows. It is also subject to conviction and leadership by the Holy Spirit and OUR desire to please God - which God put's there. Therefore it is impossible for a true child of God to CONTINUE on in that sin.

Even tho some of you have stated that it is ''unwillingly''

We don't sin willingly...because our flesh does what our spirit doesn't want to do. Our desire (which is given by God) is to not sin..but our flesh sins anyway. Therefore it is not 'wilful' sin when we dont' want to do it.

Are you kidding with this????

So when one becomes ''born again'' then they no longer......
-get wrinkles
-bleed
-experience pain

Their flesh is not born again - their spirit is. You are already redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ. Your flesh is still subject to sin and is riddled with it. Your flesh/body is still waiting to be redeemed.

Romans 8 v 23 And not only they, but OURSELVES also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting the adoption to wit the redemption of our body.

Mind if I check your face for wrinkles at 90 and jab you with a pen to see if it hurts and you bleed?

Sure! And I'll have plenty of wrinkles because my flesh is dying - (the wages of sin is death) and one day I will die because of this sin. But because of the Spirit of life in me I will be raised up on the last day and glorified.

uh......hello......we're not talking THEN.....we're talking NOW.....in THIS body....

irrelevant.

It's very relevant since people think we can 'lose' our salvation because of sin. That we will not go to heaven because of sin...not realising that our bodies are riddled with it. What's going to happen when Jesus comes back and we're all still living in these 'sin-riddled' bodies? Are we going to go to hell then? If you believe that 'sin' is going to stop us from going to heaven then you don't understand what Christ died for and what his shed blood continually does.

WE're NOT discussing what WILL happen.....we are discussing our PRESENT state.
The dual nature of the Christian

Our present state is that we have two natures - a spiritual nature that CANNOT SIN and a fleshly nature that can and does. What you need to find out...is what this new 'spirit' nature means for your fleshly one. Try reading Romans 8

 

[Egghead]

It means he STILL sins.
He STILL has a sin nature.

No HE does not.

Romans 7 v 17 Now then it is no more I that that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

YOuve got to be kidding me

You're not understanding. I do not sin - my flesh DOES SIN. Get it?

Yeah, I get it

If we claim that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(1Jo 1:8 EMTV)

No WE are born again and are a new creation. Our FLESH, however, is still full of sin.

Thats right......WE still have the sin nature.

For what I am doing, I do not know. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, this I do. But if I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now it is no longer I who am doing it, but the sin dwelling in me.
(Rom 7:15-17 EMTV)

Paul STILL had a ''disobedient'' nature even tho he fought it.
I really believe that some change the definition of ''sin'' here.

Oh Egghead - come on!!! Please read up about the two different men - one is a spiritual men who CANNOT SIN. One is a natural man (flesh) WHO SINS.

Nothing but semantics to justify ''sin'' that WE commit and not have to feel guilty for it.

What did Paul say AFTER conversion?

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Hes not putting off the blame on anyone else there.
Paul KNOWS he is a sinner saved by the sacrifice of Christ.

No WE do not need to TRY anything for when we TRY we fail. We are to BELIEVE in the one who died for our sin and walk in Him. We are to consider ourselves ALREADY dead to sin because we are.

Dead to sin eh?
DO YOU SIN?
Ill expect your answer in your next post.

It is only limited to what my 'nature' allows

What nature?
YOu just said you spirit doesnt sin.
So do you have a sin nature or not?

It is also subject to conviction and leadership by the Holy Spirit and OUR desire to please God - which God put's there.

VIOLA !! TWO natures in ONE man.
One sinful (disobedient).....and one submissive to the will of God.

You have BOTH !
And when YOU sin YOU are accountable for it.

We don't sin willingly...because our flesh does what our spirit doesn't want to do.

So youre either a slave to sin (since you do it against your will) or you do it of your own free will.

lets see what scripture says....

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
(Jam 1:14-15 KJV)

Their flesh is not born again - their spirit is. You are already redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ. Your flesh is still subject to sin and is riddled with it. Your flesh/body is still waiting to be redeemed.

Uh yes, I know

Sure! And I'll have plenty of wrinkles because my flesh is dying - (the wages of sin is death) and one day I will die because of this sin. But because of the Spirit of life in me I will be raised up on the last day and glorified.

again, we are NOT discussing our condition THEN.
We are discussing it NOW!!!!

It's very relevant since people think we can 'lose' our salvation because of sin. That we will not go to heaven because of sin...not realising that our bodies are riddled with it. What's going to happen when Jesus comes back and we're all still living in these 'sin-riddled' bodies? Are we going to go to hell then? If you believe that 'sin' is going to stop us from going to heaven then you don't understand what Christ died for and what his shed blood continually does.

There is no condmenation for sin WHEN ?

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:1 KJV)

Born again or not, if we fall away.....apostate of our own free will that He has given us.....if we at some point refuse to walk after the Spirit, rest assured these ''sin-riddled'' bodies WILL be resurrected..........to condemnation.

Our present state is that we have two natures - a spiritual nature that CANNOT SIN and a fleshly nature that can and does. What you need to find out...is what this new 'spirit' nature means for your fleshly one. Try reading Romans 8

I have read Romans 8 and have been waiting for one of you to attempt to use it. I wanted to wait for you all to bring it up

 

[Godzchild]

YOuve got to be kidding me

No I'm not kidding - Paul specifically says that it's not HIM that sins but it's his flesh


[/quote]Yeah, I get it

If we claim that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(1Jo 1:8 EMTV)[/quote]

Who's saying that we have no sin? The bible says that we cannot sin - are you calling God a liar?

Thats right......WE still have the sin nature.

And what does our new nature do tot hat sin nature?

Paul STILL had a ''disobedient'' nature even tho he fought it.
I really believe that some change the definition of ''sin'' here.

He didn't have to fight it - the battle has already been one in Christ.

Nothing but semantics to justify ''sin'' that WE commit and not have to feel guilty for it.

Why should we feel guilty? Where does it say in the bible that we are to feel guilty for sin? Didn't Christ absorb our sin and any guilt associated with that sin into himself on the Cross. Why should we feel guilt for what he's already paid for? That's like punishing yourself - wasn't Christ punished enough?

What did Paul say AFTER conversion?

Hes not putting off the blame on anyone else there.
Paul KNOWS he is a sinner saved by the sacrifice of Christ.

And he also knows that Christ - who is in him, is sinless. He also knows that he doesn't live and that he's dead but was risen again with Christ - so therefore is made blameless in Christ.

Dead to sin eh?
DO YOU SIN?
Ill expect your answer in your next post.

Yes I sin - whoopsie do!!! But Paul says we are dead to sin. I'm dead to sin! So what? I'm alive to God through Jesus Christ my Lord - sin has no dominion over me. Why? Because Christ paid for it and I rest in this.

What nature?
YOu just said you spirit doesnt sin.
So do you have a sin nature or not?

My spirit doesn't sin - my flesh sins
My spirit doesn't sin - my flesh sins

one more time.... lets say it together

My spirit doesn't sin - by flesh sins!!!!!!

VIOLA !! TWO natures in ONE man.
One sinful (disobedient).....and one submissive to the will of God.

You have BOTH !
And when YOU sin YOU are accountable for it.

no Christ was made accountable for my sin. When I sin, I am brought back to repentence by the Holy Spirit that dwells in me.

So youre either a slave to sin (since you do it against your will) or you do it of your own free will.

I am a slave to Christ!

again, we are NOT discussing our condition THEN.
We are discussing it NOW!!!!

Then you simply cannot understand if you can't see the relevance for THEN.

There is no condmenation for sin WHEN ?

In Christ Jesus!

Born again or not, if we fall away.....apostate of our own free will that He has given us.....if we at some point refuse to walk after the Spirit, rest assured these ''sin-riddled'' bodies WILL be resurrected..........to condemnation.

We will not fall away so far we can't come back. We cannot apostate ourselves because we are kept by the power of God. We will not refuse to walk after the Spirit for too long becasue we will be convicted and guided back again and again. We will perservere through the power of the Holy Spirit until the last day.

I have read Romans 8 and have been waiting for one of you to attempt to use it. I wanted to wait for you all to bring it up

Obviously not enough!

Read my blog Egghead and find out how Christ is able to keep his sheep.

Christ does not lose sheep!

 

[greeker57married]

Godzchild

No I'm not kidding - Paul specifically says that it's not HIM that sins but it's his flesh


Yeah, I get it

If we claim that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(1Jo 1:8 EMTV)

Who's saying that we have no sin? The bible says that we cannot sin - are you calling God a liar?

You are missunderstanding 1John 3:9. "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (NASV)

Both verbs are present tense in the Greek Text which are linear or continuing action: "Every one who has been born of God does not continually practice sin, because his seed remains in him; and he is not able to continually keep on sinning, because he is born of God."

The Christ can and does commit acts of sin, but cannot continually live in sin, because he is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. This is the difference between a saved person and a lost person.

Our sins do effect the flesh and the spirit.

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

God Bless
John

 

[Egghead]

No I'm not kidding - Paul specifically says that it's not HIM that sins but it's his flesh

And thats why we take ALL things together and IN context.....to see exactly what Paul means.

Yeah, I get it

If we claim that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(1Jo 1:8 EMTV)

Who's saying that we have no sin? The bible says that we cannot sin - are you calling God a liar?

Are you calling God a liar when He says this?
If we claim that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(1Jo 1:8 EMTV)

I say you dont understand what Paul meant when he said it was sin in him that was sinning and not himself.

And what does our new nature do tot hat sin nature?

I think you separate the two in a way Paul didnt mean.
I think you think as Luther did that he could commit 1000 murders and fornications a day and God HAD to permit him into heaven.

He didn't have to fight it - the battle has already been one in Christ.

For who.....?

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:1 KJV)
Those who fall away by returning to their perpetual sinful lives.....

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and became partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powerful deeds of the age to come, and having fallen away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and hold Him up to contempt.
(Heb 6:4-6 EMTV)

Why should we feel guilty?
Where does it say in the bible that we are to feel guilty for sin?
Didn't Christ absorb our sin and any guilt associated with that sin into himself on the Cross.
Why should we feel guilt for what he's already paid for? That's like punishing yourself - wasn't Christ punished enough?

ahhhh.....so NOW the truth is starting to emerge.
So WHEN you do sin now, you feel NO guilt at all ?

Your flesh can sin and because supposedly your spirit isnt involved, you dont have to feel any remorse at all, eh?

And he also knows that Christ - who is in him, is sinless.

Christ IN you is sinless........you......and I........are NOT!

He also knows that he doesn't live and that he's dead but was risen again with Christ - so therefore is made blameless in Christ.

We have and ADVOCATE before the FAther who is sinless........WE........and you.......are NOT!

Yes I sin - whoopsie do!!!

WOW !!!!!
What a very careless attitude to have about DISOBEDIENCE (aka SIN) toward our God.
See, THIS is where this doctrine leads........''so I sin....WHOOOPIE DO !!!!

Did Paul or any other writer of scripture act this way about sin?

But Paul says we are dead to sin. I'm dead to sin! So what? I'm alive to God through Jesus Christ my Lord - sin has no dominion over me. Why? Because Christ paid for it and I rest in this.

DEAD to sin.......exactly WHAT does Paul say there?

Romans 6:11

(ASV) Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.

(BBE) Even so see yourselves as dead to sin, but living to God in Christ Jesus.

(CEV) In the same way, you must think of yourselves as dead to the power of sin. But Christ Jesus has given life to you, and you live for God.

(Darby) So also *ye*, reckon yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

(EMTV) Likewise you also, consider yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(GB) Likewise thinke ye also, that ye are dead to sin, but are aliue to God in Iesus Christ our Lord.

(GNB) In the same way you are to think of yourselves as dead, so far as sin is concerned, but living in fellowship with God through Christ Jesus.

(GW) So consider yourselves dead to sin's power but living for God in the power Christ Jesus gives you.

(HNV) Thus also consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Messiah Yeshua our Lord.

(ISV) In the same way, you too must continually consider yourselves dead as far as sin is concerned, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

(KJV) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Which fits perfectly into the context of that chapter.......and the NT as a whole.
And why Paul goes ON to tell US not to keep sinning.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts, nor present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then?

Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?
Certainly not!

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to whom you obey, whether of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
(Rom 6:12-16 EMTV)

being ''dead to sin'' is a way of life for the christian, an empowering by the Spirit to NOT be slaves to sin.
If YOU sin, YOU are accountable for it.

My spirit doesn't sin - my flesh sins
My spirit doesn't sin - my flesh sins
one more time.... lets say it together

My spirit doesn't sin - by flesh sins!!!!!!

And youve made it QUITE clear how you feel about YOUR sin.

Yes I sin - whoopsie do!!!

no Christ was made accountable for my sin.

He was sacrificed.....died in your place for your sin.
BUT.....

For if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery zeal being about to devour the adversaries. Anyone disregarding the law of Moses dies without compassions on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

By how much worse punishment, do you think, will he be deemed worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, and has regarded as common the blood of the covenant, by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
(Heb 10:26-29 EMTV)

Im glad I stuck it out in these threads.
Im learning quite a bit why Calvinists dont want Hebrews 6 and 10 to mean what the clearly state.

When I sin, I am brought back to repentence by the Holy Spirit that dwells in me.

Repentance implies remorse....But you say this...

Yes I sin - whoopsie do!!!

and ask this.....

Why should we feel guilty? Where does it say in the bible that we are to feel guilty for sin?

I am a slave to Christ!

Christ made you free indeed.
You are no longer a slave to sin.
And we KNOW God does not tempt us into sin.
So, WHO makes the choice to do so when you sin?

Then you simply cannot understand if you can't see the relevance for THEN.

I see.
So are you telling me you have been perfected?
You are beyond sin?

IF not, then we are NOT discussing the same thing.
Those bodies will be perfected, that hasnt happened yet.

In Christ Jesus!

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
(Rom 8:1 EMTV)

We will not fall away so far we can't come back.

Sorry, but that is nowhere in the text.
Hebrews 6 and 10 say youre wrong.

We cannot apostate ourselves because we are kept by the power of God.

again, YOUR words.
Hebrews 6 and 10 say youre wrong.

We will not refuse to walk after the Spirit for too long becasue we will be convicted and guided back again and again.

again, Hebrews 6 and 10 show that WE are accountable and expected to persevere .....to NOT fall away/apostate ourselves.

We will perservere through the power of the Holy Spirit until the last day.

It says...

Mat 10:22 And you will be hated by all people for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

It does NOT say you cannot apostate yourself.
Hebrews 6 and 10 say you can....which is why we are warned by the writer NOT to..

Obviously not enough!

Read my blog Egghead and find out how Christ is able to keep his sheep.

Christ does not lose sheep!

I ''lose'' my car keys.
Christ doesnt ''lose'' anyone.....they WALK away of their own free will.