Calvinism...."he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

[Egghead]

I agree with this.

You are missunderstanding 1John 3:9. "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (NASV)

Could you clarify what you mean here?

The Christ can and does commit acts of sin, but cannot continually live in sin, because he is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. This is the difference between a saved person and a lost person.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but having been tempted in all respects in quite the same way as we are, yet without sin.

 

[Bulldog]

then why is it that you cant seem to let Romans 7 say what it says?

Paul knew the law before conversion and he knew it after.

He expliains his condition before salvation and also after in R0mans 7 and 8.

NOwhere does he state that his sin nature was gone, or that he couldnt sin.

In fact he shows that he fights his sin nature very clearly.

Present........I SERVE.....
This is a born again man who sinned on occasion and hated it.

Your whole response is Romans 7? Tell me, if Paul still served the law of sin after conversion, then would that not be making a practice of sin?

 

[Bulldog]

Could you clarify what you mean here?

I think he meant "The Christian" and made a typo.

 

[Egghead]

Your whole response is Romans 7?

I think we both know why.
It is the one place in the whole of the bible where the dual nature of the christian is presented in such a way that we can finally understand ourselves as ONE WHOLE person.....the spirit who wills to obey.....and the flesh who wills to disobey.

Tell me, if Paul still served the law of sin after conversion, then would that not be making a practice of sin?

He did not ''SERVE'' sin anymore
THAT is the point.

He was no longer a SLAVE to sin.
But he shows quite clealy that he still DID what he did NOT want to do...sinned...aka ''disobeyed'' at times.

The context as a whole shows that WE are free to choose now....we are NOT slaves to sin.
BUT WE must decide to live as sinless as we can.

Sin is NOT an entity.....it is plain, simple disobedience to God in whatever manner it presents itself.

The sin that was IN Paul was only his will to DISOBEY.
In Romans 7 and 8 Paul shows how he struggles AGAINST that disobedient side of himself.

 

[Egghead]

I think he meant "The Christian" and made a typo.

I kind of figured...but I wanted claification just in case he doesnt post here later and someone sees that and tries to use it as an arguement...
That way we have it in writing

 

[Bulldog]

I think we both know why.
It is the one place in the whole of the bible where the dual nature of the christian is presented in such a way that we can finally understand ourselves as ONE WHOLE person.....the spirit who wills to obey.....and the flesh who wills to disobey.


He did not ''SERVE'' sin anymore
THAT is the point.

He was no longer a SLAVE to sin.
But he shows quite clealy that he still DID what he did NOT want to do...sinned...aka ''disobeyed'' at times.

The context as a whole shows that WE are free to choose now....we are NOT slaves to sin.
BUT WE must decide to live as sinless as we can.

Sin is NOT an entity.....it is plain, simple disobedience to God in whatever manner it presents itself.

The sin that was IN Paul was only his will to DISOBEY.
In Romans 7 and 8 Paul shows how he struggles AGAINST that disobedient side of himself.

I thought you viewed Romans 7 as a description of Paul's post-conversion state?

 

[Egghead]

I thought you viewed Romans 7 as a description of Paul's post-conversion state?

It is.

I never said he wasnt presenting some of the old, read ALL of my posts please.

But you all seem to say that his whole discussion there is ONLY about his pre-christian days and that is wrong.

Paul presents a bit of the old, then compares it to new.....his current state.


Old...

For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sin worked in our members through the law to bring forth fruit to death.
(Rom 7:5 MKJV)

new......

But now we having been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
(Rom 7:6 MKJV)


can we return to the topic now?

 

[Bulldog]

It is.

I never said he wasnt presenting some of the old, read ALL of my posts please.

But you all seem to say that his whole discussion there is ONLY about his pre-christian days and that is wrong.

Paul presents a bit of the old, then compares it to new.....his current state.


Old...

For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sin worked in our members through the law to bring forth fruit to death.
(Rom 7:5 MKJV)

new......

But now we having been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
(Rom 7:6 MKJV)


can we return to the topic now?

So let me get this straight. From Romans 7:15-24 Paul is describing his post-conversion state, and then, uses the same tense with the same kind of language, but this is a description of his pre-conversion state.

 

[Egghead]

So let me get this straight. From Romans 7:15-24 Paul is describing his post-conversion state, and then, uses the same tense with the same kind of language, but this is a description of his pre-conversion state.

Let me get this straight.
Youre going to use your greek scholarship to decide what Paul says over what is clearly stated in the text?

O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
(Rom 7:24-25 MKJV)

PAUL THE CHRISTIAN !

 

[Egghead]

O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
(Rom 7:24-25 MKJV)

PAUL THE CHRISTIAN !

 

[Bulldog]

Let me get this straight.
Youre going to use your greek scholarship to decide what Paul says over what is clearly stated in the text?


PAUL THE CHRISTIAN !

I'm not a Greek scholar, but I have familiarised myself with certain aspects of the language, including some of the terms used in Romans 7.

It is the "clear" meaning that is under dispute here.

 

[Egghead]

I'm not a Greek scholar, but I have familiarised myself with certain aspects of the language, including some of the terms used in Romans 7.

It is the "clear" meaning that is under dispute here.

Ive read that ""a little Greek is a dangerous thing".

I think MANY of us have ''familiarized'' ourselves with some greek and Hebrew.

Having taken a few years of foreign language myself, Im quite sure I understand the difficulty in rendering any language into another...let alone an ancient language.

So youll have to forgive me if Im not overly impressed with this scholarship that seems to think it is more capable of rendering these ancient languages than the many real scholars who devoted their entire lives to the work.

Looking to the context of the WHOLE NT I have to conclude that Paul IS presenting an arguement about his disobedient nature that he STILL had even as a christian.....one that was not condemned as long as he was walking according to the Spirit.
​

 

[Bulldog]

Ive read that ""a little Greek is a dangerous thing".
​

Quite true....but not necessarily true, and you haven't refuted those arguments yet.

 

[Egghead]

Quite true....but not necessarily true, and you haven't refuted those arguments yet.

So let me get this straight. From Romans 7:15-24 Paul is describing his post-conversion state, and then, uses the same tense with the same kind of language, but this is a description of his pre-conversion state.

SAME tense?

For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sin worked in our members through the law to bring forth fruit to death.
(Rom 7:5 MKJV)

compared to....

But now we having been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
(Rom 7:6 MKJV)

Again....comparing the OLD to the NEW...

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do, I know not.
For what I desire, that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do.
If then I do that which I do not desire, I consent to the law that it is good.

But now it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing.
For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find.

For I do not do the good that I desire; but the evil which I do not will, that I do.
But if I do what I do not desire, it is no more I working it out, but sin dwelling in me.

I find then a law: when I will to do the right, evil is present with me.

For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man; but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members.

O wretched man that I am!
Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
(Rom 7:14-25 MKJV)

Sounds like a Christian who IS struggling, like we ALL do (or ''should"), with his dual nature.
Not one who has said

Yes I sin - whoopsie do!!!

 

[greeker57married]

Egghead

Egghead posted this Could you clarify what you mean here?

Quote:

The Christ can and does commit acts of sin, but cannot continually live in sin, because he is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. This is the difference between a saved person and a lost person.

A lost person does not have the spiritual check of the Holy Spirit when he sins. He can go on sinning and live in sin even though he may suffer consquences of sin. The Christ cannot live a life of sin because He is indwelt with the Holy Spirit and God will deal with him. This doea not mean that a Christian does not commit sin on a daily basis. But he cannot be totally given over to sin and live a life of sin.

God Bless
John

 

[Egghead]

Egghead

[/i]

A lost person does not have the spiritual check of the Holy Spirit when he sins. He can go on sinning and live in sin even though he may suffer consquences of sin.

correct.

The Christ cannot live a life of sin because He is indwelt with the Holy Spirit and God will deal with him.

Incorrect.
God WILL deal with him, BUT......there are too many instances of Pauls having to TELL men to behave for me to believe that christians will ALWAYS follow the Spirits instruction.
If men DID follow the Spirits instruction, there would have been NO occasion for Paul to correct anyone, now would there?

This doea not mean that a Christian does not commit sin on a daily basis. But he cannot be totally given over to sin and live a life of sin.

again, incorrect.
Hebrews 6 and 10 (among others) show clearly what happens when one returns to a sinful, christless life.
Only people ignoring the clear warning therein could fool themselves into believing that a christian in impervious to falling away of their own choice

God Bless
John

cool smiley

 

[holo]

Why reduce the simple facts to greek semantics?

I'm saved, I mess up, I'm still God's child. I fail and fall, He picks me up. I'm clean in His sight. The end.

 

[CCWoody]

Looking to the context of the WHOLE NT I have to conclude that....

Translation: I get to ignore what people actually say in order to interpret them in light of this overall context that I envision for the Bible.

 

[Egghead]

Translation: I get to ignore what people actually say in order to interpret them in light of this overall context that I envision for the Bible.

Not nearly as bad as a doctine that distorts the text into saying.... ''my FLESH is what commits my sin, not my spirit.....therefore no matter what sin I commit or how often, I have nothing to fear "

My spirit doesn't sin - my flesh sins
My spirit doesn't sin - my flesh sins

one more time.... lets say it together

My spirit doesn't sin - by flesh sins!!!!!!


Yes I sin - whoopsie do!!!
But Paul says we are dead to sin.
I'm dead to sin! So what?
I'm alive to God through Jesus Christ my Lord - sin has no dominion over me. Why?
Because Christ paid for it and I rest in this.

Translation......''My SPIRIT is going to heaven even if my FLESH kills, rapes, tortures, sodomizes etc, etc, etc 1000 times a day''

 

[greeker57married]

Dear Egghead

Yes, there is a sin unto death. A Christian may persist in sin for a good while, but God will continue to deal with him. When He gets to the point where he will not repent, God may take him home. But God will not let a Christian live a life time of sin and not deal with him or her. God may take him home to save the spirit. A Christian cannot finally and completely aspostasize.
No, Christians will not always follow the Spirits instructions, I agree. Christian can and do manytimes rebel against God's will and yield to temptation. Many times they make excuses why they sin. But there is a distinction of a believer's relatonship to sin and a lost person's relationship to sin.

Yes I believe, as you do about Hebrews 6 & 10. but the Christian does not lost his salvation. but judgement, chastizement and death may result.

Heb. 6:6 is not a conditional phrase. 4"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame."
Notice it is one sentence in the NASV as it is in the Greek text. Yes I believe a Christian can get so far away from fellowship with God that they want stop sinning. But God will not continue to let them sin, if they will not repent, He will take them home.

God Bless
John