Calvinism...."he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

[Egghead]

OR...I'm representing the historical, Biblical view of apostasy and you're simply rejecting it in favor of that which supports your position.

OR......you are perpetuating a false teaching that is a distortion of Pauls writings, just as Peter has shown to have happened.

You've set up an interesting dichotomy here. Either they are blatant, willful fakers or true believers...no middle ground (even though you admitted that men can deceive themselves into thinking they are saved without actually being saved).

Because like you, I dont put everyone into two baskets.

Jesus parable of the sower itself shows how many scenarios? Four.
Three of which are those who are ever truly saved.

There are those like my coworker who never really intended on following through with his conversion, showing no true conversion at all.
Id say he fits right into Jesus sower parable somewhere.

There are those, many in churches, who are tares, not because they couldnt be saved, but because they think theyre saved just because they go to church or were raised in church, etc.
These believe they are saved, but are not as they have never actaully repented of THEIR own sins and been serious about it.
Ive met tons of these people in my visiting different churches over the years.

There are men who did repent of sin, did live holy lives before God, then something like a wife or child dying causes them to start having doubts.
Instead of running and hiding in Him, keeping hold of their faith, after years of having a relationship with Him, they let these doubts and anger with Him quickly tear down what they had.
For some, it doesnt lead to apostacy, because they are able to keep just enough wits about themselves to not reject Him altogether.
Ive seen it, so doubt what you will, I really dont care.

For others they let the anger and the doubt consume them and finally they end up either not believing in Him, hating Him, etc.
Again, Ive seen these with my own eyes, so your doubting doesnt matter to me at all.

Did God know this would happen beforehand?
Of course.
Does that relieve them of their responsibility?
of course not.
Were they born again and fell away?
absolutly (where that is the case)

Argument from silence, egghead. The whole point of apostasy is in the manifestation of unbelief by renunciation of that which they once professed.

guy, this is really getting old.
I think you know very well what youre doing but refuse to admit it.
The definition DOESNT state NOR imply that these were FALSE converts.
YOU added that idea.

AT this point, please stop talking about the dictionary definition to distract from this debate.
That definition, as clear as it is, is NOT from scripture and is therefore a moot point.

You wanted to know what I believed apostacy is.
I gave that as what *I* believe it is.
The definition doenst matter here.
I believe that apostacy is commited by those who are TRUE converts.

i will not respond again to that definition.
Thanks

See, now you're arguing from your own conception of what it means to be a "legitimate" member of a faith, continuing to adjust in order to stay on both feet.

No, I am accepting that some people never really convert, some do and apostate.
You are the one having to add ideas about apostates not really being ''sanctified partakers of the Holy Spirit" as scripture shows that they were in Hebrews.

But you do not give any possibility to the fact that those who are turning back never truly believed unto salvation in the first place. Why? Because it doesn't fit with your definition of apostasy or your fallacious understanding of the role of warnings in Scripture.

Pot, kettle, black...

You are the one not giving any possibilty to the fact that those who are turning DID truly believe unto salvation in the first place.
Why?
Because it doesnt fit with your doctrinal position in calvinism.
And you must reject clear warnings presenting through the NT written to BELIEVERS.
Why?
To make calvinism work.

No, you're making every apostate a true believer.

True apostates WERE true believers.
Make believers are just that....fakes...

I suggest you be sure you're on sound hermeneutical footing before you try, egghead. Otherwise you'll quite likely make a fool of yourself.

Ive yet to make one of myself on this topic.
You all have been refuted time and again.

Like I said, his confidence was just wishful thinking with no real substance behind it. He might even have had his fingers crossed for luck when he said it.

Its only wishful thinking becuase you believe there are two groups of people......elect and NON-elect...therefore in your mind those who are not elect will never have the ability to come to Him anyway.
As I said, take of your doctinal lenses and read it.
If you dare.

So do you admit that you can give no specific example of an apostate?

Sure I can.
Read Hebrews 6 and 10
THERE are your apostates.

HAve I seen any in life?
Yes, a few.

Have I seen any that faked their whole experience?
yes, quite a few as was evidenced very quickly (sower parable)

After all, you don't know anyone's heart so you cannot possibly know with any certainty whether or not someone is a true believer or a mere professer.

and you can?

In fact, for you to declare anybody apostate would be gross and arrogant presumption on your part since you really have no clue if they were really apostate or "just faking it."

At least I give them the benefit of the doubt

If they fall away, you must declare they were never ''sanctified partakers of the Holy Spirit'' to being with.

Even though scripture shows that they are just that......PARTAKERS.

How do we partake of a meal?
we consume it.
How do we PARTAKE of the Holy Spirit?
any ideas?

Argument from silence.

How about this one: I ASSUME because the definition doesn't say "TRUE converts.

it doesnt have to.
It merely shows that those of a faith reject that faith.
You add that these were false believers.
And as I said, Im done debating the definition from a dictionary.

argue from scripture or Ill just not respond to you again.

I may believe that you're lying, but I wouldn't know for certain. But your public profession of being a democrat is your word on the matter, and to later renounce that profession would by definition make you an apostate (although the term ordinarily applies to religion, not politics or philosophy).

wrong.
Jesus said you will know them by thier fruits.

I can SAY Im a democrat, but secretly be a republican and behave like one.
I am only an apostate if I truly convert, live like a democrat, believe like one, eat like one, breathe like one...then turn away.

A man who says ''Im born again'' then lives his life drinking, partying and feeling up unconscious teenage girls is NOT born again,...he is a make believer..... a fake......false brethren.

If you understood the Biblical concept of a covenant you would see this much more clearly.

If you understood the Biblical concept of a covenant you would see this much more clearly

 

[Egghead]

It does appear that you contradict yourself in 2 sentences.

and you all tell me *IM* quoting out of context

Well, Egghead, you don't have to worry about not having any guilt before God. You simply need to worry about yourself and whether or not you will chose to remain with God or turn and spit in his face as you have claimed.

I accept responsibility for my actions.
I live each day making sure I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling.
Something Calvinists obviously are relieved of doing, even if it is scriptural.
Why fear, youre going to heaven even if you do murder and fornicate 1000 times a day.

BTW, feeling guilt for sin is not what I meant nor even said. The power of Christ in my life is that I have no guilt in this life.

Indeed.

Well, it doesn't make me nervous. I know the power of Christ in me. Such a thing is beyond my ability to do.

Too bad its not just those monstrous sins that can send one to hell.

 

[Egghead]

John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I really like the New Living Translation:
John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and refusing to accept the truth

Where many get confused on those two passages is that in the first one, 1 John 3:9, John is speaking of the continual, habitual practice of sin, whereby sin holds dominion over the believer, which cannot be, as Paul points out in Romans 7. For indeed, the genuine regenerated believer, when they do sin, are convicted by the Holy Spirit, confess their sin as John says in 1 John 1, seeks forgiveness and repents.

There is a substantial difference between the regenerated soul that sins, hates his sin but does not have sin holding dominion over him/her.

For the unregenerate, they have no struggle with sin, they love their sin, they love darkness because their deeds are wicked(John 3:18-21).

sorry, but we're not discussing unregenerate.

We are discussing those who WERE regenerate, then fall away for whatever reason as some of the Hebrew CHRISTIANS, who were sanctifed partakers of the Holy Spirit, were doing

 

[Egghead]

Egghead, it just occurred to me after reading through several of your posts that your writing style is very familiar. Have we had this conversation before?

I have over 1400 posts, its quite possible that we've discussed this before.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

sorry, but we're not discussing unregenerate.

We are discussing those who WERE regenerate, then fall away for whatever reason as some of the Hebrew CHRISTIANS, who were sanctifed partakers of the Holy Spirit, were doing

Hey, guess what egghead.

I was discussing a sidebar with someone else. It had nothing to do with you.

Sorry fella, but you do not control what other posters discuss among themselves on this thread.

 

[Egghead]

Hey, guess what egghead.

I was discussing a sidebar with someone else. It had nothing to do with you.

Sorry fella, but you do not control what other posters discuss among themselves on this thread.

My fault.

 

[edie19]

By the way, welcome to CF. May your stay here be enlightening, long and profitable.

I participate in 2 other online forums - but this has fast become my favorite. First of all it focuses on my favorite topic of discussion. Second, folks are polite - one forum I go to people are so unbelievably hostile to those of differing opinions. I get tired of being told I'm "evil" or "a nazi" because I have some conservative viewpoints. I happen to know for a fact that "compassionate conservative" is not an oxymoron.

Anyhow - thanks for the welcome, I'm sure I'll be here a while.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

My fault.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I participate in 2 other online forums - but this has fast become my favorite. First of all it focuses on my favorite topic of discussion. Second, folks are polite - one forum I go to people are so unbelievably hostile to those of differing opinions. I get tired of being told I'm "evil" or "a nazi" because I have some conservative viewpoints. I happen to know for a fact that "compassionate conservative" is not an oxymoron.

Anyhow - thanks for the welcome, I'm sure I'll be here a while.

I know what you mean. I participate in several other forums and moderate at one much like this one. Some are rough and tumble for sure, but then there are some that are so politically correct that it stifles truth.

Me, I will gladly take one that is not politically correct, with a false since of "niceness" that the truth is watered down or censured to death, for one that is a little "looser" anyday.

What happens lots of times, especially in this postmodern era where people have been conditioned to be hyper-sensitive, is that one cannot speak plain truth without someone getting their sensibilites offended.

For instance, I could say, that dispensationalism is a modern invention stemming from Darby's interpretation and explapolated teachings based on a vision by Margaret McDonald in 1830, and with it's main tenet being that God has two distinct peoples, the Jews and the Church, and that the Jews are God's ONLY Chosen people, a tenet that is anti-Biblical and anti-Christian, and you can rest assured that someone, possibly many will have their sensitibilites offended and make the hyper-sensitive accusation of "bashing", or "harassment", when in reality it is nothing more than a direct, legitimate challenge to the teachings of dispensationalism.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

By the way, my last post was not any effort to hijack this thread or change the focus. I was simply using an example of recent experience to make a point.

 

[greeker57married]

Egghead

*I* seem to double talk ?

You mean double talk like ''its my FLESH that sins, not my SPIRIT.....so I can go to heaven even if I rape and murder 1000 times a day".....THAT kind of double talk?

No.....a christian cannot LOSE their salvation.
"LOSE" implies that it is against ones will.
They CAN toss it back in Gods face purposefully.

I never said that a Christian does not sin in the spirit. You are putting Words into my mouth. You still did not answer my question as to what kind of punishment the Hebrew Christians experience who did not go on with God.

Sincerely
John

 

[Egghead]

You still did not answer my question as to what kind of punishment the Hebrew Christians experience who did not go on with God.

What happens when Christs sacrifice no longer applies towards ones sins?

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Great reconciliation (pun intended) of the two verses. So often people simple ignore the one they don't agree with. This is excellent. We are in total agreement.

Thanks. In the full context of Scripture, that is the only meanig that can be true.

I'm sure that Ignatius of Antioch, your namesake, would approve. Wait, he already has.